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I think the responses show there are all sorts of player types, some willing to pay and some not.

I would go with the model that gets as many people into your store and gaming space as possible. And that means not charging. By making the the store a place gamers want to spend time.. you can offer them services that you can make margin on. By charging you will limit that pool of customers.

I would rather pay a membership fee for unlimited use. Add food and beer and you might be on to something.

You may want to look at the business model which kid's play centers use. They charge a pretty nominal fee for time or a membership for unlimited. This is low to get people in the door. Then they make the bulk of their profit from food and drink.

I also would pay a membership fee, provided it

a.) was not too onerous
b.) was in a decent location
c.) no kids being dropped off for cheap babysitting
d.) lots of tables, well laid out, including small side tables for books, and obviously, chairs
e.) lockers would be a big plus
f.) was open late, the later the better

The hour idea sounds like a nightmare to implement and administer. I'd enjoy being chased down to be told mid-game my time was up, give me some more money - just as much as I suspect you'd enjoy doing all the collecting. All day long. Chasing people for money.

Ouze wrote:The hour idea sounds like a nightmare to implement and administer. I'd enjoy being chased down to be told mid-game my time was up, give me some more money - just as much as I suspect you'd enjoy doing all the collecting. All day long. Chasing people for money.

It's the same thing with the kid's play centers - nominally you pay for X hours but in practice, as long as you aren't grossly abusing it, no-one cares. They make their money from bottles of drink and plates of food.

I think that some people would.Me personally yes but in that regards if you are charging people to play on your tables i think you should furnish models.Me and a patrner have been working on trying to open up a hobby shop. we were thinking of doing that but running a reservation stlye and closed to general public.But the feed back from potential customers was that they wanted to either have furnished or cheap rental models. second they also did not want children or inmature teens allowed or rulebook lawyers.If after hours or private paty or just closed to the public can they smoke or drink beer? in my area they pretty much said if they cant do that there they would pretty much stay at home.Also offer group discounts to gaming clubs or a flat monthly fee for them plus extras or privledges to them.example 20 bucks a month unlimited use of the gaming areas also with us alot of people wanted monthly tournaments with rewards sometimes free sometimes not. example a few of the people wanted the winnner to get a 500,000 gp reward for their team winning a blood bowl turney.Just a few suggestions i had. all i can say is go out and do some leg work seek out potential customers and get thir feed back.

I'd definitely be into this. $5 an hour would be cheap, considering that is what most internet cafes are creeping towards in melbourne at the moment. Actually a closer business model WOULD be a net cafe, you provide the equipment etc and everyone makes their own fun (within reason).
You then make extra money off food, drink, and extra services.
This'd be a godsend in my area, might end up stealing your idea if i run into alot of money haha.

Id happily pay $5-10 an hour for a table to play on a decent table in a >18 environment.

We all should realize that there was someone who did this exact thing... in New Hampshire... not too long ago. A location with a membership, focused on playing not selling. I'm talking about Russ Wakelin and DakkaDakka the store, of course. Here is a podcast where Russ does an interview about running that location:

http://gamerslounge.coda.net/?p=246

So the pay to play concept is not 100% dead in the water. DakkaDakka the store worked. The environment was something you couldn't get in a FLGS or at home. So there was value being provided for that membership. People are willing to pay for what they value.

Don't give up just because some posters are extremely vocal against the idea. You are wise to check with the target market, but posting on dakka is not equivalent to a focus group. Posting on the intarwebs, with its anonymous comments, is guaranteed to draw those who wish to be critical. While you do have a lot of constructive criticism here, the fact that you gave up so quickly, and focused on the criticism instead of the constructive, is a bit startling.

I hope that you do consider how you could make your concept work, because personally I would love to be able to play various games, in a pleasant welcoming environment (outside the house), where various opponents are available. That is not something easy to find- in my experience stores are either GW (so GW only), or full of the old timers (so unpleasant for newbies) and/or poorly managed. That is fine if you are one of the insiders, but outsiders are out of luck. I already pay for the privilege to not be sneered at for walking in the door. This is why I go to GW, and pay GW prices for stuff: because I pay where I play. That 15 - 20% premium is so I have a place to play. But man I would love to play some Malifaux...

Edit: fix typo

You're in Baltimore, MD!? I was going to say "no", and then I saw that, and I'm thinking "I've been craving an independent location to play for ages... wouldn't it be worth something to me?"

I do agree with the above, though- I would much rather pay a monthly membership fee ($25-$30?) than pay per hour, since then you never know what you'll have to pay for a game... especially with a slow opponent!

I'm currently fantasy-only, though, so I'd be looking for non cities of death terrain...

I think, rather than just boards, you'd need to focus on other amenities as well. Others have mentioned providing/selling drinks and food, and I think that's an excellent idea. I've only been to a few pool halls, but the ones which were full had food and stuff available, the ones that were empty, just had a bunch of tables and a vending machine or two.

In addition, this creates a viable income source besides renting the boards. People would want to hang out, game, watch others, drink, have a bite to eat, etc... Your biggest problem would probably be getting a liquor licence and dealing with the occasional drunk (and it would be VERY important to encourage an atmosphere where people get only occasionally drunk and those that do, don't cause problems).

Another option may be just to offer coffee drinks and sodas, but those aren't as profitable, and I don't think they would attract as big of a crowd.

I'd rather pay a 20-30 dollar monthly fee, than a hourly.

Hourly seems to be irritating to people. A game of pool tends to be shorter than an hour. Warhammer, not so. Instead, may I suggest charging by points? So for Warhammer, Warmachine and various other games, you'd set various point values, and decide how much each is worth. So for 40k, it could be $5 per thousand points per side, so a 2000pt game would cost $10 in total, $5 per player. That's a reasonable price.

Secondly, the rental armies idea is a good one. Give people the option of using some other stuff. That'll be a draw for people short of cash. Instead of shelling out for those six rhinos, Tiny Tim can just borrow some from the hall at a $1 charge to get access to the store collection. This also can attract people with small armies who want to try out bigger games. If you're really lucky, you may even get a non-gamer or two, coming in for a look.

Speaking of which, it'd be a good idea to offer tutorial games. Like in a FLGS, but without the pressuring to buy something.

I can play games where-ever, but the only time I can Carnifex-spam is when I've recently bought a six-pack of coke.

No, i go to have fun for 'free' and if i paid i would most likely give up going.

Really interesting thread. I actually think this might work in an area with enough gamers. Here's what I think you'll need:

-The incredible amount of terrain, boards, tables, chairs, and other essencials for the gaming aspect

-Staff which is willing to work late, get involved, make the people there feel like friends (think LGS that is open until 11pm at least 3 nights a week)

-Regular events that are well planned out and even if your regular gaming is slow, many people come to the events

-A member's club feel with areas to just relax, food and drinks (as others have stated), maybe a TV or something, and members can come in whenever

-Good location

-Fee of about $20-30 a month would probably be all you'd get so you'd need plenty of people to keep renewing their memberships

-Bonus for providing a full library of rulebooks, cadexes, and fiction ("I'm heading to the Gamers Club to check out the new Dark Eldar Codex!")

-Bonus for a voter system that can get people kicked out for being a jack-ass (must be handled carefully)

-Bonus for liquor license

There's probably more, but I think that something like what I'm imagining could be possible with enough gamers to support it. Unfortunately, this will never happen in Canada :(

Exactly, powerclaw! I think you summed it up nicely.

The great thing is that there may just be the critical density in the Maryland region. Put it over in the Rockville area, for example, so it could cater to NoVa, DC, and MD... It could theoretically be done.

I don't play at game stores. I don't play there because the ones I've been to have been cramped, had dodgy househkeeping, always had shady characters skukling about, and have air that feels vaguely sticky. Right now I'm happier getting the games I do playing on awkardly sized tables with cardboard boxes for terrain than I am trying to deal with a game store.

I'd gladly pay premium to play in a back room or something that had been cleared of clutter, had a vacuumed rug, and air freshener along with nice gaming supplies.

You could probably get about $15-$20 session out of two people with my mindset for a four hour block of time. Or maybe ~$2/hr per person (each player pays separately).

Alternatively I could see going for about $50-75/mo (EDIT: Maybe even $100 if it's *really* nice) for an unlimited play group membership. In this case I'd want the space available for more than just WH/Wargames (RPGs, Magic, Etc...) if the group felt like doing those things privately. There would also have to be enough space available relative to the number of members that we wouldn't have to reserve things more than a month in advance to get the slots we wanted.

There would also have to be some space in the area (for any of these options) for non-gaming people to just sit around read a book/goof on a laptop etc. As some folks have non-gaming friends,SOs, rides, whatever.

I know it is case closed but...

The Baltimore DC area has too many places where people can play for free.

I pay 10 bucks a year for a club about 30 minutes away.

Baltimore DC has several game stores...even with the Baltimore Bunker closed, there's a Games and Stuff and Dream Wizards and the Game Parlors.

True, but a dedicated place just with awesome tables would be well worth it in my book. No pressure to buy things when in the store, etc.

Just sayin' in case you ever revive the idea . Although it definitely looks like you'd have an easier time getting membership dues than hourly rates...

Here's how I'd envision a place like this working.

You have the storefront. Normal gaming shop style, with two display/tester boards in the middle. The two tables can be played on by anyone, or host demonstration games. A proper FLGS, so a range of games, from Warmachine, to 40K, to FoW, to Uncharted Seas. A few stands of conversion kits ordered from Chapterhouse, and bits and bobs from Maxminis, Forgeworld and so on. A massive paint rack, with both citadel and Vallejo. A box full of different types of resin bases. A small shelf, with a massive catalog on, with stuff from many different websites. All the stuff you didn't have room to stock, nice and easily detailed, so that people can impulse buy from it.

At the back, there's a door. (or stairs to the next floor). Going through that door, you see a nice room, stocked with about 10 gaming tables set up. The boards are interestingly modelled. There are comfortable computer chairs, two per table. There's a mini-bar at one side of the room, with a keg or two of the local favourites, and several types of snack, along with three or four pub stools in front of it. There's a door to a small storage room behind the bar, with another 5 or so tables leaned gently on each other, and a few boxes of terrain. Lining the walls of the room are several padlocked display stands, with different armies for different games in, rentable for a small fee. On the walls of the room are campaign charts, listing a continuous flow of wins and losses between the patrons. There's a flag, with the club members logo, and a list of all the tournaments in the country. A small table hosts a miniature sound system, with a full CD rack next to it, for providing background music, or allowing players to bring their own. T. Another small table possesses trays for people to stack their armies on in the meantime, and even a few lockers, so people can leave things overnight if they so wish.

Now looking on the minibar counter, there's a small flyer, looking closer, one can read the writing, which goes as follows...

' Majestics Gaming Club! Pick the type of Membership to suit you! Basic Membership allows you access to the tables between 9 and 6 any day of the week. Costs £10 a month. Advanced Membership Allows you anytime access to the tables, including the evening club from 6 till 11 twice a week, for £15 a month, and a 5% store discount. However, Premium Membership, for £25 a month, gives you access to the tables at any time, free access to store armies, a 10% store discount, and free entrance in all our tournaments!'

Would you pay for that? I know I would.

These stores:

General Hobbs wrote:
Baltimore DC has several game stores...even with the Baltimore Bunker closed, there's a Games and Stuff and Dream Wizards and the Game Parlors.

exactly are described as

Chongara wrote: cramped, had dodgy househkeeping, always had shady characters skukling about, and have air that feels vaguely sticky.

So there is a need still unmet in this area.

Edit: remove extra spaces and add conclusion

I think a better thing to do would be to:

1.) Calculate how much real estate is typically available in a small store. Lets presume enough for 10 tables
2.) lets assume these tables are at, minimum, 50% utilization all day, 9am to 5pm, 7 days a week. That's 10 players.
3.) Lets presume they pay $5 each for a 2 hour block, which is enough for a fast game of 40K assuming no arguing (snicker), That's $10 per 2 hours, you'd be making about $5 per hour per table. 5 tables in use means $25 an hour for 8 hours a day. That's $200 a day in tables.
4.) So, assuming you never have any days off, the store will be taking in about $6,000 a month from the tables.
5.) The minimum wage is $7.25/hour. Lets presume you have 1 person working at all time at minimum wage with no overtime (or benefits). You have to pay them $1,160.
6.) Can you afford to pay your rent & utilities for $4,840 a month? Wear and tear on furniture? I don't see this as viable. Even if you double your income from selling drinks and such...

The analogy here is much like Americans and foreign labor: we want products produced in a way that is environmentally friendly, in a safe, clean place by employees who make a living wage with good benefits. And we're not willing to pay anything near what those products would cost if produced under those conditions.

WOW... such great ideas and feedback. First off thanks for all your input and feedback, well thought out feedback at that. If there is one thing you can say about us wargamers is we have passion by the truck loads. My wife works for a commercial property company and I had a chance to chew the fat with her boss. The rent would be INSANE in this area and the cost of operations would be staggering. Also where I live liquor licences are grandfathered! No new ones granted, so you have to buy an existing one. Also a magic word called ZONING so if it was BYOB it would have to pass the zoning board. I love the idea but the start up capitol is just to far out of my reach as well. Hopefully this thread sparks some of you to try something new , but for me it is just a dream. The store/club of this thread would be a great place to play and hang out but it would truly be a loss buisness. Meaning you would needtp have money to burn and nothing to do with it. So if any of you have a ton of money and want to be my partner PM... hahaha just kidding.

Thanks again and if nothing else this has been a fun thread to be part of!

Mike



edit for spelling

Ouze wrote:6.) Can you afford to pay your rent & utilities for $4,840 a month? Wear and tear on furniture? I don't see this as viable. Even if you double your income from selling drinks and such...

I think you're underestimating how much sodas and food could make.

With the numbers you gave you're looking at 10 people in the store at a time for 4 2-hour blocks per day. That's 40 "units" of customers (it might be 40 customers or it might be ten people there all day) per day and 1200 per month. If everyone buys one soda per battle that's potentially $600+ in revenue. $2-3K is pretty achievable. Especially if you have a bit of a lounge for SOs or parents. A time block for youngsters might well be golden if there's somewhere for the parents to sit and have a coffe & meal. (of course, rules will state that minors MUST have their parents present...)

madmartykmf wrote:WOW... such great ideas and feedback. First off thanks for all your input and feedback, well thought out feedback at that. If there is one thing you can say about us wargamers is we have passion by the truck loads. My wife works for a commercial property company and I had a chance to chew the fat with her boss. The rent would be INSANE in this area and the cost of operations would be staggering. Also where I live liquor licences are grandfathered! No new ones granted, so you have to buy an existing one. Also a magic word called ZONING so if it was BYOB it would have to pass the zoning board. I love the idea but the start up capitol is just to far out of my reach as well. Hopefully this thread sparks some of you to try something new , but for me it is just a dream. The store/club of this thread would be a great place to play and hang out but it would truly be a loss buisness. Meaning you would needtp have money to burn and nothing to do with it. So if any of you have a ton of money and want to be my partner PM... hahaha just kidding.

Thanks again and if nothing else this has been a fun thread to be part of!

Mike



edit for spelling

Ok, you failed to mention originally the Bar. If there was a game store or bunker or whatever you want to call it that also had a cash bar inside it, I would pay some sort of cover.

I'd pay, so I could go somewhere other than a GW store.

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that some people don't like playing at GW stores because of the pushy sales staff. I've experienced this in the US at at least 6 different stores in different States. What are they like in other countries? This put me off going in at all. In one store (1st time) I was asked if I wanted to buy the new VC spearhead (over $100) within 5 mins of being in the store. Then when I said no the person rolled their eyes, lost all interest and jumped on some other poor sod. I know it is a business but
I live in the UK now but have not ventured into a GW store yet.

Assuming all of the previously mentioned criteria are met (well located, friendly staff, good terrain/boards), I would be willing to pay via two different methods:

1) Point based:
- Up to 1000 points - 5$
- Up to 2000 points - 10$
- Up to 3000 points - 15$

With a model like this I would feel comfortable initiating someone to the game with a small army without having to worry too much about time and if I play a large scale battle, then the general 3-4 hours it takes to cover would be decent.

2) Membership:
Up to 100$/year

Based on the benefits. Things that would make me spend that 100$:
- Access to other armies's codex when I need to verify a rule or if I forgot mine
- Painting station for when there's time to kill in between games
- Rebate on the hourly rate or tournament entry prices.
-A few free snacks/drinks (limited) for those days when I forgot to bring something and don't have money on hand.


Some people on Dakka must be cherished to be willing to pay nothing to play especially when it could be a beautifully crafted board and terrain. I am not so lucky, I have terrain and a board that I've actually invested a lot of time into, but I lack people playing in my immediate surrounding. The possibility of playing with mature, like-minded people alone would get me in that store.

madmartykmf wrote:WOW... such great ideas and feedback. First off thanks for all your input and feedback, well thought out feedback at that. If there is one thing you can say about us wargamers is we have passion by the truck loads. My wife works for a commercial property company and I had a chance to chew the fat with her boss. The rent would be INSANE in this area and the cost of operations would be staggering. Also where I live liquor licences are grandfathered!

This is why I you all those questions early in the thread.... you need to know how much it costs to operate before you can ask anything else. Otherwise you don't know how much to charge. This is pretty important.

madmartykmf wrote:No new ones granted, so you have to buy an existing one. Also a magic word called ZONING so if it was BYOB it would have to pass the zoning board. I love the idea but the start up capitol is just to far out of my reach as well. Hopefully this thread sparks some of you to try something new , but for me it is just a dream. The store/club of this thread would be a great place to play and hang out but it would truly be a loss buisness. Meaning you would needtp have money to burn and nothing to do with it. So if any of you have a ton of money and want to be my partner PM... hahaha just kidding.

Thanks again and if nothing else this has been a fun thread to be part of

My last question would be do you or a friend have a basement? If so perhaps you can just cut out the rent an the overhead and do a little something on the side? Perhaps rent the boards and every once in a while when you build up some cash you can add some new boards. Anyway just a thought about keeping your costs low.

Obviously some downsides with people you don't know in your house.

I would pay to play but not on an hourly basis, I would pay to play a game, if different point value games carried different prices I would find this acceptable as this would factor in that larger point games take more time hence more rent.
also
1) No kids whatsoever!!! not an adult not allowed in
2) Alcohol was allowed on the premesis - this is one of the main reasons for point 1, I want to have a beer and relax when I play
3) The tables are VERY good and have a variety of accompanying scenery.
4) Side tables where provided.
5) No TFG's
6) Opening times reflected the age of the cliental i.e. stay open until late

For this sort of service I would pay
1500 points or less £5
1600-2500 points £7.50
2500-3500 points £10.00
Apoc Games of 4000+ £15.00 per player

B-more isn't far off from me but currently we have a store in rockville that if you don't buy something the employees there kick you out(and are rude[and don't speak to you unless you buy something] also so that's a plus >.&gt so that's kind of like renting tables but their tables are horrid. Only chance I'd pay is if it was 18+ to enter and sold alcohol or at least let us bring some in at least.

So far the gw in Olney isn't pushy but I'd like to have a play in b-more to play once in a while since it would give me a reason to bug someone to let me spend the night at their place so we can go to an industrial club that isn't boring and filled with emos and "goth"s.

So point being I'd vote yes if there was booze allowed for casual band I'd be happy to pay for tornies other then that no not really.. Mainly because it's hard enough to fund this hobby with no job.