Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

im trying to figure out if the Shining spears are worth the points cost

They're not.

Would you care to offer the reasoning behind your reply?

It isn't any help as it stands.

You pay through the ass for a unit that, although crazy good on the charge, is completely useless afterwords. Their limited number of attacks doesn't help them much either.

Essentially, you're paying for a fast roughrider squad, except it's twice the cost at the minimal investment, and won't have the weight of attacks to do anything worth while for it either. The disparity (between Shining Spears and Rough Riders) only gets greater the more you invest in them.They're caught between throwaway unit and pricey assault unit, and they just can't do either right.

They are bad and here is why:

They don't always kill the unit they charge so they have to disengage and charge again. If they get charged by any MEQ unit they will have trouble surviving and they rarely regain their points cost. They can contest objective but cannot score.

So you can get a slightly less killy but scoring unit in the form of a GJB squad.

Thank you for the help=) what would you suggest i use instead?

For what function?

The short answer is anything!

Now for the long answer. It depends on your list. If you feel you need a CC type unit, then try Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions or Harlies. If you want a shooty unit try DA's or Storm Guardians. If you want a bike, try Guardian Jetbikes. You can even use War Walkers if you have the Heavy Slots available.

I wouldn't recommend banshees. They've got some cool abilities, especially with proper support, but the fact that they can't charge out of a Wave Serpent just kills them.

i just got the battleforce pack and i think im going to get more warwalkers. for aspects i was thinking warpspiders and banshees/scorpions and after that im not certain

Synergy is a big part of Eldar lists. Very few Eldar units can function well in a vacuum. I suggest you plan an overall feel for your list before you go picking out individual units.

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't recommend banshees. They've got some cool abilities, especially with proper support, but the fact that they can't charge out of a Wave Serpent just kills them.

Banshees in a Wave Serpent that deploy into cover will still be effective, and they can charge 18" since they are fleet. As long as they have a transport they will be good. Maybe not as good some of the other units, but still good. Full Power Weapon Squad that always attacks first, you can't ask for much more.

phyrephly wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't recommend banshees. They've got some cool abilities, especially with proper support, but the fact that they can't charge out of a Wave Serpent just kills them.

Banshees in a Wave Serpent that deploy into cover will still be effective, and they can charge 18" since they are fleet. As long as they have a transport they will be good. Maybe not as good some of the other units, but still good. Full Power Weapon Squad that always attacks first, you can't ask for much more.

Well, first off, they won't charge 18" often. You're looking to average more around 15-16". You should never rely on a fleet roll hitting 4+, it should be just that little push that gets you over that little gap you wouldn't otherwise, not a considerable leap.

And the biggest thing you have to ask yourself, "if not as good as some of the other units, then why at all?"

Fafnir wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't recommend banshees. They've got some cool abilities, especially with proper support, but the fact that they can't charge out of a Wave Serpent just kills them.

Banshees in a Wave Serpent that deploy into cover will still be effective, and they can charge 18" since they are fleet. As long as they have a transport they will be good. Maybe not as good some of the other units, but still good. Full Power Weapon Squad that always attacks first, you can't ask for much more.

Well, first off, they won't charge 18" often. You're looking to average more around 15-16". You should never rely on a fleet roll hitting 4+, it should be just that little push that gets you over that little gap you wouldn't otherwise, not a considerable leap.

And the biggest thing you have to ask yourself, "if not as good as some of the other units, then why at all?"

Fair enough, so they still charge more than 12"

And they are better than anything in the Eldar codex. So if you want a better unit change armies

i know that i want a cc unit or 2 but im only 14 years old so i dont have that much money so i wont be able to by a wave serpent for most of my units for example but i will get warpspiders and fire dragons and work more from there

phyrephly wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

phyrephly wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I wouldn't recommend banshees. They've got some cool abilities, especially with proper support, but the fact that they can't charge out of a Wave Serpent just kills them.

Banshees in a Wave Serpent that deploy into cover will still be effective, and they can charge 18" since they are fleet. As long as they have a transport they will be good. Maybe not as good some of the other units, but still good. Full Power Weapon Squad that always attacks first, you can't ask for much more.

Well, first off, they won't charge 18" often. You're looking to average more around 15-16". You should never rely on a fleet roll hitting 4+, it should be just that little push that gets you over that little gap you wouldn't otherwise, not a considerable leap.

And the biggest thing you have to ask yourself, "if not as good as some of the other units, then why at all?"

Fair enough, so they still charge more than 12"

And they are better than anything in the Eldar codex. So if you want a better unit change armies

Better what? Assault unit? Striking Scorpions are better, and so are Harlequins. And it's hard to beat the Avatar for its cost and pure destructive power.

It doesn't help that, assuming they survive, Banshees are screwed once they've won combat.

And if you mean best unit overall? Banshees rank pretty damn low on the Eldar heirarchy of useful units. They're passable at best.

For CC they are the best you can hope for if you manage power vs usefulness vs points cost.

If you want a CC army play something different. This is the point I am making.

Eldar have plenty of fine CC options. Banshees just aren't up there. As I've already said, Scorpions and Harlequins are better. They're roughly the same killing power (the difference in killing power between Banshees and Scorpions is entirely dependant on who you're actually fighting, but for the most part, Scorpions come out ahead), more survivable, more versatile, and more independant.

Harlequins are too expensive to play competetively.

As for Banshees vs Scorpions

Any unit with a decent armor save will be rather fight against scorpions. Anything else would prefer banshees.

If either of the units are not in combat they will get killed by small arms fire and stronger.

So scorpionshave more attacks and +1 str, Banshees always attack first and have power weapons. They are entirely different units, and they kill different things better. Scorpoins cannot charge into cover with the same success as Banshees.

Scorpions are good, I just don't like them. Banshees are also good and I don't play them. I don't believe the statement that the banshees are passable at best is true.

Striking first isn't too big a deal for Eldar when they're already faster than most of the competition anyway. It's cool, but it's not amazing.

The big thing that really helps Scorpions is that they have a 3+. That's huge. They can also infiltrate. Scorpions can be used offensivly or defensivly. They can guard your lines, or get stuck right in, and they have the durability to make it work.

Harlequins have the ability to severly hamper enemy attempts to break them at long range, and their increased WS, ability to ignore terrain completely, and increased attacks makes them well worth the cost when fielded in the proper list.

Fair enough, but harlies really need a foot based list to work well and that makes it slightly harder to field them since the foot lists end up being less competetive.

So the argument here is a pure CC unit will die outside of CC due to fire and that makes them crap?

Well if so does that not apply to most CC units then?

Im sure as hell that's how I use my tau to get the advantage, let them charge a 6 man FW team, let them kill it or have them run and then at the beginning of my firing turn it is good bye to that squad.

The general rule is. Good at firing, weak against CC/good at CC weak against firing. A unit cannot be defined as crap because you only see its weakness.

Seer Council...it's what the Shining Spears should have been.
_______________
@syanticraven:

It's not that they are dying out side of combat. It's that they are EASILY taken down in or out of combat.

Large bases means harder to hide, and low model count is not helping them.
In addition, their application is not something the Eldar 'need'.

They are expensive.
Reliant on very few somewhat quality attacks.
Hard to hide.
Fragile for points.
Shooting Capacity is largely wasted.
Can't handle Hordes.
Can't handle defensive grenades.
Can't handle charging into terrain.
Hit and Run is cool, but not consistant nor that safe.

perhaps dark reaper are more worth. they cost the same but have a very long range and awesome firepower


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps dark reaper are more worth they cost the same but have a very long range and awesome firepower

Dark Reapers are "ok". But remember that they take up a Heavy Support Slot, so at higher point games no Triple Fire Prism or the like.

okey

They're more for camping on the home objective and generally become an annoyance. They're great against a foot slogging MEQ list though. But once again it comes to synergy with the rest of the list.

For me I have a fire base made up of some Guardians and Dark Reapers, and a Wraithlord (I just like the model, I know it barely fits in ). Then I have some more faster elements such as Jetbikes and Wave Serpents to go out and capture objectives taking advantage of the mobility of the Eldar vehicles. However I'm slowly changing it to a full mobile army.

The first thing to do when making an Eldar army is to choose how you want it to behave, keeping in mind the advantages and disadvantages of each style as there may be a way to counter it.

You mentioned you had one Warwalker. If you really want to field it, try to bring it up to a squad of three and use it to outflank.

If you're just starting out, I'd say the Spiders are a bit more forgiving and generally usable unit than the Spears... I've seen the Spears work "OK" in a full Jetbike army, but more I think because the Seer Council on bikes did a lot of the heavy lifting and soaked up a lot of the fire that would have killed the Spears off... Me, I use the Spiders in most of my Eldar lists for mobile Str 6 firepower... Not "Lance" or "Str 6 Power Weapon" in CC, but they usually do fairly well for me...

Step 1 for any Eldar army is to establish what you want to do with it. A unit that works great in one army list works terribly in another. So, decide what you want: Mechdar (the most competitive currently), Footslogging, MC focused, etc.

Don't start buying models until you've got a theme or else you'll end up with a lot of wasted $

As for Shining Spears: Don't bother. They simply cost way too much for what they do.

Shining Spears are not worth their points cost.

However, that doesn't mean they're worthless. They can still be useful, especially if they have an autarch with a laser lance. They can kill really tough things in close combat, which is something that Eldar can struggle with, they're super fast, and they can do an okay job at killing hordes, too.

In the right army - one with a lot of other fast units that can screen and support them - the spears can be very good. If you like the models, give them a try. However, if money is an issue and you can only buy one assault unit I would suggest you buy Scorpions, Banshees or Harelquins. They're a bit easier to use and more of a sure thing.