Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So Monoliths do not experience a mishap when they deepstrike and hit troops--the troops move to accomodate the Monolith, at least 1 inch away.

So does that mean I could deepstrike a Monolith into the middle of a company of orks, making them move outta the way for me, and then fire d6 shots into each unit?

yes

Yes you can, sort of.

A Monolith can mishap, it only doesn't mishap if it lands on enemy units and rolls a "Terrible Accident" result. So there is a 2/3 chance you won't get to do anything with the Lith if you try this.

Necron codex pg 21: "Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

So I get that terrain or the edge of the table would still cause a mishap...troops don't--they make way. I was just wondering if its kosher to try to deepstrike right in the midst of troops.

So Gwar...You're saying that the mass of the monolith only makes troops make way for it if they roll a terrible accident?...the mass wouldn't also make them give way for a different roll?

Shenra wrote:Necron codex pg 21: "Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

So I get that terrain or the edge of the table would still cause a mishap...troops don't--they make way. I was just wondering if its kosher to try to deepstrike right in the midst of troops.

So Gwar...You're saying that the mass of the monolith only makes troops make way for it if they roll a terrible accident?...the mass wouldn't also make them give way for a different roll?

Fluff is not rules.

The rules are clear, it only happens if the Lith is destroyed because of a DSM.

3rd ed weirdness? Anti-Fluff? Maybe, but the rules are clear.

You can deep strike it inside of enemy troops. That's fine and dandy. It will still mishap if you land on them though, and if you roll a 3-4, your enemy places the lith and a 5-6 it is delayed. On a 1-2 it should be destroyed, but the Liths special rule instead pushes the enemy out the way.

Ok, thanks!

Gwar's interpretation is the RAW in this situation, but to be honest I doubt it's how most players would actually do it on the table.

The line about being destroyed when Deep Striking is a remnant of 3rd edition (when the codex was released) where the Deep Strike mishaps table didn't exist... if you landed on something, you were just destroyed.

So, at least from my experience, that line is generally taken to refer in this edition to a mishap, rather than specifically to rolling a destroyed result as a result of the mishap.

That's how I'd like to interpret it...but the last thing I want to do is "cheat." If no mishap table existed 3rd edition, then I'd agree with you insaniak. Hopefully, the new necron codex will be out soon and be updated and give Necrons a more competitive build.

One thing which I think everyone has missed - don;t you count as moving at cruising speed when you DS? Therefore you cannot fire the Gauss Flux arc OR the Particle whip as neither are defensive weapons (S5 and S9 respectively)

liam0404 wrote:One thing which I think everyone has missed - don;t you count as moving at cruising speed when you DS? Therefore you cannot fire the Gauss Flux arc OR the Particle whip as neither are defensive weapons (S5 and S9 respectively)

Not sure what that has to do with mishaps (probably why no one else has mentioned it) but yes, IMO, you are correct and a DSing Monolth may not fire any weapons on the turn it deep strikes since it counts as moving at Cruising speed and is not a Fast Vehicle. And even if it had defensive weapons, it wouldn't matter, as they are only fired in addition to whatever main guns can be fired.

Well, there is strong debate about not firing the whip, but you for sure can not fire the Gauss Flux arc on the turn you deep strike. House rule the particle whip.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

don_mondo wrote:

liam0404 wrote:One thing which I think everyone has missed - don;t you count as moving at cruising speed when you DS? Therefore you cannot fire the Gauss Flux arc OR the Particle whip as neither are defensive weapons (S5 and S9 respectively)

Not sure what that has to do with mishaps (probably why no one else has mentioned it) but yes, IMO, you are correct and a DSing Monolth may not fire any weapons on the turn it deep strikes since it counts as moving at Cruising speed and is not a Fast Vehicle. And even if it had defensive weapons, it wouldn't matter, as they are only fired in addition to whatever main guns can be fired.

I thought the same thing but look at the first post again and you'll see the second line references shooting guys after DS'ing.

Shenra wrote:So does that mean I could deepstrike a Monolith into the middle of a company of orks, making them move outta the way for me, and then fire d6 shots into each unit?

That's the only reason i'm flagging this, no one has corrected it during the thread so I thought it would help.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been ninja'd again!!

Gwar! wrote:

Shenra wrote:Necron codex pg 21: "Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

So I get that terrain or the edge of the table would still cause a mishap...troops don't--they make way. I was just wondering if its kosher to try to deepstrike right in the midst of troops.

So Gwar...You're saying that the mass of the monolith only makes troops make way for it if they roll a terrible accident?...the mass wouldn't also make them give way for a different roll?

Fluff is not rules.

The rules are clear, it only happens if the Lith is destroyed because of a DSM.

3rd ed weirdness? Anti-Fluff? Maybe, but the rules are clear.

You can deep strike it inside of enemy troops. That's fine and dandy. It will still mishap if you land on them though, and if you roll a 3-4, your enemy places the lith and a 5-6 it is delayed. On a 1-2 it should be destroyed, but the Liths special rule instead pushes the enemy out the way.

Actually, the rules state the Monolith does not suffer a mishap if landing on enemy models, just move the models out of the way of the Monolith. Not being destroyed when landing on enemy models is a side benefit of moving the offending models out from underneath the Monolith.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Shenra wrote:Necron codex pg 21: "Because of the sheer mass of the monolith, it is not destroyed if there are enemy within 1" when it arrives. Instead, move any models that are in the way the minimum distance necessary to make space for the monolith."

So I get that terrain or the edge of the table would still cause a mishap...troops don't--they make way. I was just wondering if its kosher to try to deepstrike right in the midst of troops.

So Gwar...You're saying that the mass of the monolith only makes troops make way for it if they roll a terrible accident?...the mass wouldn't also make them give way for a different roll?

Fluff is not rules.

The rules are clear, it only happens if the Lith is destroyed because of a DSM.

3rd ed weirdness? Anti-Fluff? Maybe, but the rules are clear.

You can deep strike it inside of enemy troops. That's fine and dandy. It will still mishap if you land on them though, and if you roll a 3-4, your enemy places the lith and a 5-6 it is delayed. On a 1-2 it should be destroyed, but the Liths special rule instead pushes the enemy out the way.

Actually, the rules state the Monolith does not suffer a mishap if landing on enemy models, just move the models out of the way of the Monolith. Not being destroyed when landing on enemy models is a side benefit of moving the offending models out from underneath the Monolith.

No.

RAW - As quoted above; it is not *destroyed*. The other options for Mishap still can happen, but if you receive a destroyed result...then it is fine and you move models out of the way.

RAP - I let my Necron buddy drop his Monolith into my units, and I move them out of the way. (as a side note; I don't let him fire the Particle Whip on the turn that it arrives. Although "Ponderous" is essentially the "Lumbering Behemoth" rule that the Leman Russ has, we count it as moving a full 12" [even though it normally can't]. For the point cost, you are getting two things that most other vehicles don't. [no extra dice for armor penetration, and no mishaps from enemy units].)

Kevin949 wrote:I thought the same thing but look at the first post again and you'll see the second line references shooting guys after DS'ing.

Ooops, it certainly does. My apologies.

If a model wants to deepstrike it can, but not on top of enemy models or impassable terrain. Therefore you can not purposefully put it on top of a squad. If by chance it scatters onto a squad then you use the rule. I don't see why you would have to mishap first.

And the rules say a monolith can move and shoot of all its weapons. And codex rules are superior to that in the rule book, so it doesn't matter if it moved at cruising speed or flat out.

But you should know that it was faq'd that you can only fire one weapon a turn, so either the gauss flux arc or particle accelerator.

Shenra wrote:So does that mean I could deepstrike a Monolith and then fire d6 shots?

Not really. The shooting part made the Monolith able to fire in third edition, where you couldn't normally fire Ordnance after moving. It does nothing now since a) you can shoot after moving anyway and b) it doesn't mention helping when moving at Cruising speed.

Spetulhu wrote:

Shenra wrote:So does that mean I could deepstrike a Monolith and then fire d6 shots?

Not really. The shooting part made the Monolith able to fire in third edition, where you couldn't normally fire Ordnance after moving. It does nothing now since a) you can shoot after moving anyway and b) it doesn't mention helping when moving at Cruising speed.

Really actually. The rules on the codex say it can move and fire all of its weapons. Even though the codex is 3rd edition is still triumphs over 5th edition rulebook.

The faq says you can shoot the particle accelerator or guass flux arc, but you can still move it though.

Soulx wrote:And the rules say a monolith can move and shoot of all its weapons. And codex rules are superior to that in the rule book, so it doesn't matter if it moved at cruising speed or flat out.

But you should know that it was faq'd that you can only fire one weapon a turn, so either the gauss flux arc or particle accelerator.

The FAQ wasn't a change... The codex doesn't say it can fire all of its weapons if it moves.

codex says it can move and use the power matrix.

Soulx wrote:If a model wants to deepstrike it can, but not on top of enemy models or impassable terrain. Therefore you can not purposefully put it on top of a squad. If by chance it scatters onto a squad then you use the rule. I don't see why you would have to mishap first.

And the rules say a monolith can move and shoot of all its weapons. And codex rules are superior to that in the rule book, so it doesn't matter if it moved at cruising speed or flat out.

But you should know that it was faq'd that you can only fire one weapon a turn, so either the gauss flux arc or particle accelerator.

Please quote where the Monolith may DS and fire all of it's weapons.

Also you absolutely can DS on top of enemy models on purpose. The rules simply state that if you cannot place the DS'ing model due to enemy models etc. you go to the mishap table. As a side note the Mawlocs ability relies on this.

Soulx wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

Shenra wrote:So does that mean I could deepstrike a Monolith and then fire d6 shots?

Not really. The shooting part made the Monolith able to fire in third edition, where you couldn't normally fire Ordnance after moving. It does nothing now since a) you can shoot after moving anyway and b) it doesn't mention helping when moving at Cruising speed.

Really actually. The rules on the codex say it can move and fire all of its weapons. Even though the codex is 3rd edition is still triumphs over 5th edition rulebook.

The faq says you can shoot the particle accelerator or guass flux arc, but you can still move it though.

Ummm, no, it really is not really. Nowhere does the codex say what you're saying it says.

Soulx wrote:If a model wants to deepstrike it can, but not on top of enemy models or impassable terrain. Therefore you can not purposefully put it on top of a squad. If by chance it scatters onto a squad then you use the rule. I don't see why you would have to mishap first. .

Wrong.
RAW - When you go to place the model, it has the ability to move models out of the way if it receives a 1-2 on the Mishap table. That would create a safe landing space for it to come into.

RAP - Move models out of the way, wherever it may land.

Soulx wrote:And the rules say a monolith can move and shoot of all its weapons. And codex rules are superior to that in the rule book, so it doesn't matter if it moved at cruising speed or flat out.

Wrong. [Specific > General]
Cruising Speed = Defensive Weapons

Soulx wrote: But you should know that it was faq'd that you can only fire one weapon a turn, so either the gauss flux arc or particle accelerator.

What FAQ are you referring to? INAT (which is irrelevant), a Games Workshop FAQ (which GW downplays the importance of.)?

Necron Codex p21: Power Matrix: ...the power matrix cannot be disabled by a 'weapon destroyed' result and may even be used if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned.

So the particle whip can be used.

I don't see the deepstrike can shoot all weapons in the codex...but if I'm missing it quote the page number.

I think the deepstrike on models question is a RAW vs. RAI question. It seems the third edition didn't have a mishap table...the only option was being destroyed. Thus, when it says the monolith can't be destroyed, move the enemy models, RAI means models move. This didn't become an issue until the newer rules came out and created a mishap table. But honestly--if a monolith is going to move you out of the way...you're going to move. It only works if you're going to blow up? that doesn't even make any sense.

Shenra wrote: Necron Codex p21: Power Matrix: ...the power matrix cannot be disabled by a 'weapon destroyed' result and may even be used if the Monolith moves, or is shaken or stunned.

So the particle whip can be used.

No. The power matrix can be used. It can be used to teleport Necrons. The particle whip however is a weapon, and no weapons can be used by the Monolith when it deep strikes because it counts as moving at cruising speed. And this has been done to death already.

Shenra wrote:I don't see the deepstrike can shoot all weapons in the codex...but if I'm missing it quote the page number.

You don't see it because it isn't there. It is only in 5th edition that vehicles that deep strike count as moving at cruising speed. This took away an ability that many vehicles had in previous editions, not just the Monolith.

Shenra wrote:I think the deepstrike on models question is a RAW vs. RAI question. It seems the third edition didn't have a mishap table...the only option was being destroyed. Thus, when it says the monolith can't be destroyed, move the enemy models, RAI means models move. This didn't become an issue until the newer rules came out and created a mishap table. But honestly--if a monolith is going to move you out of the way...you're going to move. It only works if you're going to blow up? that doesn't even make any sense.

The mishap table is a 5th edition change. In previous editions, if your Monolith scattered into impassable terrain or off the table, it was destroyed like other units. Now it suffers a mishap and can possibly come back on the table.
It still has an advantage. If a unit of terminators scatters on to an enemy model and rolls a 1-2 on the mishap table, it is destroyed. If the same thing happens to the monolith, the enemy model moves out of the way. The Monolith still retains the advantage of not being destroyed in this instance.

Power matrix has two uses: one is to teleport. The other is particle whip. Codex overrules rulebook. Codex says power matrix can be used. Use #1 of power matrix is particle whip. Thus it can be used.

And its already been established that off the table and impassable terrain aren't the issue. Enemy troops are. And you quote the 5th edition rulebook...that's fine, except I just noted the difference between RAW 5th edition and RAI 3rd edition.

Unless you think if they wrote the codex right now they would say "The Monolith's mass makes enemy models make room for it...but only if it's going to be destroyed in a mishap. Otherwise the opponent gets to place it somewhere else or it goes into reserve." Either it's massive, making enemies move, or it isn't. What we really need in these discussions is logic when the rules aren't clear between editions, instead of black/white either or rule sticklers.

COdex does NOT override rulebook. SPecific overrides general.

General monolith rule: can be used if moved
Specific BRB rule: cannot fire if you move, or count as moving, Cruising speed

Cannot fire. Been done to death, end result is cannot fire.

Enemy and Friendly Models are impassable terrain. Its in the rules....

So if the codex states you can fire a SPECIFIC weapon after moving, you can't because the rulebook says? And if the codex says enemy models move out of your way when you deepstrike, but the rulebook says they are impassable terrain, you go with the rulebook?

In that case every army just lost an ability special to their army alone.

Shenra wrote: Power matrix has two uses: one is to teleport. The other is particle whip. Codex overrules rulebook. Codex says power matrix can be used. Use #1 of power matrix is particle whip. Thus it can be used.

Codex does not overrule rulebook. Not absolutely. This misunderstanding comes from the BRB page 74 under Universal Special Rules which states in part; "...if any of the Codexsx include one of these special rules and the rule is different, the one in the Codex takes precedence..." it does not state anywhere in the BRB that any army's codex overrules the main rules. If I missed that rule somewhere, please provide the quote along with the page number so I can be corrected.

As far as "Use #1 of the power matrix is particle whip." that is correct. And use #2 of the particle whip is to teleport Necrons. That is just the way they are numbered in the codex. And yes, the power matrix can be used as long as it follows all relevant and pertinent rules from the main rulebook. In order to fire any weapon after deep striking, GW could have simply issued an errata stating as much, similar to the rule for power of the machine spirit in the space marine codex. GW didn't errata the weapon rule for the particle whip or the deep strike rule for the Monolith, so the monolith can't fire any weapon on the turn it deep strikes.

Shenra wrote:Unless you think if they wrote the codex right now they would say "The Monolith's mass makes enemy models make room for it...but only if it's going to be destroyed in a mishap. Otherwise the opponent gets to place it somewhere else or it goes into reserve." Either it's massive, making enemies move, or it isn't. What we really need in these discussions is logic when the rules aren't clear between editions, instead of black/white either or rule sticklers.

What we really need is to look at the rules and any errata. The deep strike mishap table was introduced in the latest rules. It applies to all armies across the board. Again, if the intent of the designers was to say that the mishap table did not apply to the Monolith, then it could have simply been errata'd. Was it? No. So the deep strike mishap table applies to the Monolith like any other model. The difference is that if the Monolith were to suffer a destroyed result because it landed within 1" of any enemy model, you would instead move the models the minimum distance necessary to make room for the Monolith. That is the specific override to the general deep strike rule that the Necron Codex makes.

Shenra wrote:So if the codex states you can fire a SPECIFIC weapon after moving, you can't because the rulebook says? And if the codex says enemy models move out of your way when you deepstrike, but the rulebook says they are impassable terrain, you go with the rulebook?

In that case every army just lost an ability special to their army alone.

I know the debates been had, but moving and shooting is general (and all vehicles generally have the ability to move and shoot) but not being allowed to shoot when you move cruising speed is much more specific.

The codex says you can't be destroyed by landing on enemy models because you move them out of the way...so when you roll on the mishap table for landing on them the mishap that would destroy the monolith is ignored in favor of moving the offending models, but the other two results which do not destroy the monolith may still occur.