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Shenra wrote: So if the codex states you can fire a SPECIFIC weapon after moving, you can't because the rulebook says? And if the codex says enemy models move out of your way when you deepstrike, but the rulebook says they are impassable terrain, you go with the rulebook?

The Necron codex does not say the particle whip may fire! It says the power matrix may be used. There is a world of difference between the two statements.

Shenra wrote:In that case every army just lost an ability special to their army alone.

That's right. Under 4th edition, I could deep strike my land speeder typhoons and fire all my weapons. Under 5th edition I can only fire one weapon. The rules changed.
Under 4th edition, if my terminators deep struck off the table they were destroyed. Under 5th edition I have a chance that they will remain in play. The rules changed.
Some armies lost some abilities, some armies gained something. The rules changed.
Arguing that the codex should say something does not change the codex. An errata would change the codex.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. IMHO, if the codex says the monolith can move and use power matrix, then it can. TO me, that seems more specific than the deepstrike cruising speed rule. THe monolith couldn't use the flux arc, because it doesn't say it can. But it DOES say it can use the power matrix.

Mishap does apply to monolith...just not in the case of troops, as stated by its codex.

And the specific override the Necron Codex made was to being destroyed--and yes in 5th edition destroyed is a 1 or two on the mishap. But in 3rd edition, any mishap was a destroyed...there was no going back into reserve or opponent placing the monolith. So, again, IMHO, when the Necron Codex was published a mishap=destroyed, so when it says troops don't destroy it from deepstriking, then I see that as troops don't cause a mishap from DS.

I'll be glad when the new codex comes out. That's the problem with a codex being two editions behind...everyone can argue til they turn blue in the fingers from typing but really there's no right or wrong, it's just how you see it.

Shenra wrote: I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

I disagree with that

Shenra wrote: IMHO, if the codex says the monolith can move and use power matrix, then it can. TO me, that seems more specific than the deepstrike cruising speed rule. THe monolith couldn't use the flux arc, because it doesn't say it can. But it DOES say it can use the power matrix.

Move and use is not the same as move and fire. But again, this is a dead horse issue.

Shenra wrote:Mishap does apply to monolith...just not in the case of troops, as stated by its codex.

And the specific override the Necron Codex made was to being destroyed--and yes in 5th edition destroyed is a 1 or two on the mishap. But in 3rd edition, any mishap was a destroyed...there was no going back into reserve or opponent placing the monolith. So, again, IMHO, when the Necron Codex was published a mishap=destroyed, so when it says troops don't destroy it from deepstriking, then I see that as troops don't cause a mishap from DS.

The problem with that is you are trying to say that you will follow the rules for deep strike mishap except for the one about landing on enemy models. You want this to not trigger a mishap, but to just force the enemy models out of the way. There is no rule, errata or GW FAQ to support this.
You cannot arbitrarily decide to follow a part of a rule and disregard the rest of it. If you land on enemy models, it triggers a deep strike mishap. If you roll a 1 or 2, you are destroyed, by rule. But the Necron Codex says that if destroyed is the result, then the Monolith (specific) is not destroyed, the enemy models are moved to make room for it to land.

Following a rule as it functioned in third edition is most definitely a "wrong" answer. However I agree there isn't a real 'right or wrong' answer to this issue, just a RAW answer or a house rule...your choice.

Shenra - you can fire while moving.

Can you fire while moving at a *specific* speed? NO, you just have a general rule allowing you to move and use the whip.

Move at cruising speed is MORE specific than move.

time wizard...i am not trying to follow part of the rule. I am saying that the rule in question, when the necron codex came out, only had ONE type of mishap--destroyed. So when it says the monolith is not destroyed by landing on enemy troops via deepstrike, I take it to mean that it doesn't suffer a mishap, because that is the only mishap they had at the time of publication.

Then, years later, the mishap table came out and extended destroyed mishaps to three different types of mishaps. So you think this means that the monolith, which avoided mishaps 100 percent of the time when landing on enemy troops before, now only avoids those exact same mishaps 33 percent of the time? To me, that is illogical. Now if the mishap table came out b4 the Necron codex I would agree with you, but as it didn't, I disagree.

Same thing with cruising speed--newer than codex. Meaning the monolith could move fullout and then rules came out with more detailed speeds. Now it can't? We need a new codex, because detailed rules have come out post codex.

-Sigh- Not this again.

The lith cannot fire when it deep strikes.

Shenra - well, you are following parts of the rules.

Your argument is: the monolith has lost ability due to an edition change.

Well? What does that matter? What is more illogical - following the rules in the current ruleset, or attempting to shoehorn rules from prior rulesets in?

Landspeeders can no longer deepstrike and fire everything. By your "logic" this should be ignored.
Everyone used to be able to move 12" in a vehicle and fire frmo fire points. Now you cannot. By your logic we should ignore this.
In 4th ed, when Codex: CSM was written, you could not deepstrike jump infantry. Now you can. Should they lose this ability , as it clearly wasnt created for them?

The correct answer to all of these is: the core rules change, live with it good or bad.

After all I assume you wont let a glancing-6 kill a monolith, like it could in 4th ed? Or is it only advantages you're arguing for?

zeshin wrote:

Shenra wrote:So if the codex states you can fire a SPECIFIC weapon after moving, you can't because the rulebook says? And if the codex says enemy models move out of your way when you deepstrike, but the rulebook says they are impassable terrain, you go with the rulebook?

In that case every army just lost an ability special to their army alone.

I know the debates been had, but moving and shooting is general (and all vehicles generally have the ability to move and shoot) but not being allowed to shoot when you move cruising speed is much more specific.

The codex says you can't be destroyed by landing on enemy models because you move them out of the way...so when you roll on the mishap table for landing on them the mishap that would destroy the monolith is ignored in favor of moving the offending models, but the other two results which do not destroy the monolith may still occur.

Well, actually no vehicle just moves and shoots. Vehicles move at combat/cruising/flat out speeds. Since the monolith rule references no specific then the argument pertains to "does it encompass all movement or no movement?".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Shenra - you can fire while moving.

Can you fire while moving at a *specific* speed? NO, you just have a general rule allowing you to move and use the whip.

Move at cruising speed is MORE specific than move.

See my post above and please tell me which speed is not specific?

Nosferatu...you have a good point.

Kevin I see what you're saying. But since movement wasn't combat/cruising/flatout when the codex was released, then how can you say that it can't fire? I guess I am of the opinion that all movement or none--I'll take all. At least until a FAQ, Errata, or new codex comes out.

I guess that's my problem with old codexes and new rules. New rules come out and seem to limit the codexes with rules that didn't even exist when the codex came out. So where there were no mishaps involving troops with a monolith, now there's a mishap 2/3 of the time.

Not to mention Necrons just aren't that competetive to begin with. And alot of that stems from these newer rules which the codex used to have answers for and now the current interpretations limit even further.

@Kevin: Permission to move combat speed and shoot gives you a general permission to move and shoot...with some specific restrictions/permissions having to do with distance moved and weapon type. The monolith rule gives general permission to move and "use the power matrix..." (which is even more general as it doesn't even talk specifically about shooting) with no specific restrictions/permissions.

But that's neither here nor there as this thread is about moving models out of the way of falling 'liths.

Shenra wrote:Nosferatu...you have a good point.

Kevin I see what you're saying. But since movement wasn't combat/cruising/flatout when the codex was released, then how can you say that it can't fire? I guess I am of the opinion that all movement or none--I'll take all. At least until a FAQ, Errata, or new codex comes out.

I guess that's my problem with old codexes and new rules. New rules come out and seem to limit the codexes with rules that didn't even exist when the codex came out. So where there were no mishaps involving troops with a monolith, now there's a mishap 2/3 of the time.

Not to mention Necrons just aren't that competetive to begin with. And alot of that stems from these newer rules which the codex used to have answers for and now the current interpretations limit even further.

I never said I didn't think it couldn't fire. And yes, you're exactly right about the different speeds not existing in 3rd edition. But they do now and GW hasn't FAQ'd either of these particular issues for the monolith being discussed. But since the speeds didn't exist in third does this make it now a defunct rule that should be ignore completely OR does it now overwrite the rulebook rules to include all movement? It's an unstoppable force vs. immovable object scenario (though the ones on the other side of the fence don't necessarily see it that way).

Anyway, the DS mishap scenario has been answered and technically so has the second question of the OP's. Personally, my solution to this entire scenario is to just not DS the monolith anyway. Most of the time it's too huge to do so with how much terrain is on the board and usually for me it doesn't show up til turn 3 or 4 anyway so it's a waste.

Shenra wrote:I guess that's my problem with old codexes and new rules. New rules come out and seem to limit the codexes with rules that didn't even exist when the codex came out. So where there were no mishaps involving troops with a monolith, now there's a mishap 2/3 of the time.

Actually, there's a mishap 100% of the time that a mishap occurs. Under the old rules, if a Monolith scattered within 1" of an enemy unit, it moved them. Now, it suffers a mishap. Okay, that's the bad.
Under the old rules, if the Monolith scattered onto impassable terrain, onto friendly models or off the table, it was destroyed. Now it suffers a mishap and has a 2/3 chance of surviving. That's the good.
Plus, if the monolith suffers a mishap when scattering onto enemy troops, it still can't be destroyed on a roll of 1 or 2. What other unit in the game has that advantage? None that I know of.
When rules change, we take the bad with the good. That's just how it goes.

Shenra wrote:Not to mention Necrons just aren't that competetive to begin with. And alot of that stems from these newer rules which the codex used to have answers for and now the current interpretations limit even further.

I don't know about that. People are still winning games and tournaments with Necron lists. It would be that same as saying that Dark Eldar weren't competitive until their codex got re-written. Really? Look us Dashofpepper's batreps with Dark Eldar using their old codex. What makes an army competitive is not their codex or even their list, it's their player. A poor player with the ultimate army and list can still lose due to poor tactics. You just have to take a lesson from Sun Tzu and maximize your strengths while exploiting your enemies weaknesses.

Kevin949 wrote:Personally, my solution to this entire scenario is to just not DS the monolith anyway. Most of the time it's too huge to do so with how much terrain is on the board and usually for me it doesn't show up til turn 3 or 4 anyway so it's a waste.

That is certainly an option. But the question is if you do deep strike it in, what happens? And the answer still is, if it suffers a mishap it follows the rules on the deep strike mishap table.

time wizard wrote:That is certainly an option. But the question is if you do deep strike it in, what happens? And the answer still is, if it suffers a mishap it follows the rules on the deep strike mishap table.

And I've never disagreed with that.

Shenra wrote:So if the codex states you can fire a SPECIFIC weapon after moving, you can't because the rulebook says? And if the codex says enemy models move out of your way when you deepstrike, but the rulebook says they are impassable terrain, you go with the rulebook?

In that case every army just lost an ability special to their army alone.

The Codex does not say that a specific weapon can be fired after moving. It says the Power Matrix can be used after moving. The Power Matrix is not a weapon. It is an item that has two uses, one of which is as a weapon. Moving at cruising speed prevents weapons from being used; this does not prevent the other use of the Power Matrix from being used. For example, if you deepstrike, you could still use the Power Matrix to teleport a nearby unit of Necrons.

If the rule stated that the Particle Whip could be fired even after moving, you might have a point, but that's not what the rule says.

Che-Vito wrote:
RAW - As quoted above; it is not *destroyed*. The other options for Mishap still can happen, but if you receive a destroyed result...then it is fine and you move models out of the way.

RAP - I let my Necron buddy drop his Monolith into my units, and I move them out of the way. (as a side note; I don't let him fire the Particle Whip on the turn that it arrives. Although "Ponderous" is essentially the "Lumbering Behemoth" rule that the Leman Russ has, we count it as moving a full 12" [even though it normally can't]. For the point cost, you are getting two things that most other vehicles don't. [no extra dice for armor penetration, and no mishaps from enemy units].)

No. The rest of the rule deals with what happens if the Monolith DS within 1" of enemy models: move the models. Since the codex states what to do if the Monolith DS within 1" of an enemy model, there mishap rule does not come into play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
No. The rest of the rule deals with what happens if the Monolith DS within 1" of enemy models AND WOULD BE DESTROYED: move the models. Since the codex states what to do if the Monolith DS within 1" of an enemy model AND WOULD BE DESTROYED, THAT PART OF THE mishap rule does not come into play.

Fixed that for you and added the parts that you left out..................................

Both of the topics at hand have been beaten to death, resurrected, and beaten to death all over again in the past. This thread shows no sign of going anywhere that hasn't been gone before, so I think it's time to give it a rest.

To summarise:

The rules governing whether or not the Monolith can shoot when it Deep Strikes are a matter of some debate. Regardless of what you personally think the rules say on the matter, it's a good idea to discuss it with your opponent before the game.

The rules governing the Monolith and mishaps are ambiguous due to them being written for a previous edition where Deep Strike worked differently. Again, worth discussing with your opponent before the game.