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Went through it yesterday to see what had changed re my army that I fielded in our recent 1500pt 40K club tourney. My army structure is the fairly classic "Gun Line DE":

HQ - Dracon with Agoniser, Shadowfield, Haemy w Stinger, 8 warriors, 2 with Splinter cannon, in a Raider with Dark Lance
Elites - 9 Wyches, Succubus w/Agoniser
Elites - BeastMistress w/ 4 Warp Beasts
3 x Gun Squads - 14 Warriors each, incl 2 w/ DarkLances and 1 w/ Blaster
2 x Raider Squads - 9 Warriors, 1 w/Splinter Cannon, Raider w D/L
HW - 2 x Ravagers each w/ 3 D/L
HW - Talos

Overall in the new Codex the anti-tank shooting and killer characters have become more expensive, the combat infantry are a bit cheaper.

Thus it hurts my army structure quite badly, as my armywas designed to put in a hail of long distance firepower and then counter-attack with small but very powerful units, when I had hopefully KO'd enough enemy firepower to mitigate the DE's biggest weakness, ie they die like flies when shot at. To field my 1500pt army in the new Codex would cost c 1800pts (with direct equivalents) - 1900pts (with new higher minima in effect) iin this Codex, so initial impression it's like the new Eldar Codex - ie nerfing another army that had got too good at smacking Smurfs at a distance.

Specific changes are:

1. No more cheap Dracon Lord at 35 points, only the 60pt Archon
2. Haemonculus goes from 25 to 50 points
3, Lord's Retinue up from 8 to 12 points
4. Wyches are now 10, not 12 points
5. WarpBeasts etc are same price but the Codex is crocked here, as the Beastmistress is now a Jump Infantry and her Beasts are Beasts, ie they move differently to each other - how does that work in a game?
6. Warriors are now 9, not 8 points, the Dark Lance is now 25, not 10 pts and you have to take all 20 figures in a squad to get the 2nd Dark Lance. This raises the cost per lance from 50 points to 135 points. The Blaster is 50% more expensive but now has an 18" range.
7. Raider transports are now 60, not 55 points and get nothing new.
8. Ravager is unchanged
9. Talos gets twin linked Splinter cannon, which is better than the Splinter Rifle it had, and the Cannon's range goes up to 36" and now has 6 shots when mounted, 4 when moving as before (I like this, it differentiates between an MG in MMG or LMG mode) and counts as a poison weapon (like a Sniper weapon except it doesn't get the vehicle armour piercing)

Clearly the massively raised costs of the Dark Lance armed infantry makes them useless in their previous guise, so it is necessary to look at how to restructure the army.

There are 2 new freebies, - (i) if a unit wipes out an enemy unit it gets "Pain Tokens" that confer benefits like Feel no pain, and (with 2 tokens) Furious Charge. But bear in mind that the DE army hits hard but at S3 T3 5+ Save, it cannot deal with systained enemy firepower or even combat, so there are not likely to be many around to enjoy these benefits - except the really tough guys, who do not need them. And you get harlequins....but this army has Wyches at 40% of the cost....

They also have Night Vision, which allows them to re-roll a range throw - stastically fairly useless unfortunately (I calculate c 1/4 of games need it, and chances of throwing 30" (typical early bound ranges) is now 45% not 33%. If I could have Warriors at 8 pts again....

There are a whole bunch of new special characters and special troops, new transports and heavy support stuff, but sadly they still seem to be mostly overpriced toys that you wouldn't use in a gaming army.

3 examples - The new Venom 5 man transport skimmer is 55 points and can't field a Dark Lance - why would you not use a 60pt Raider? Or the new 145 point Razorwing jet fighter, lots of ordnance but 10/10/10 armour, vs the good old tank busting Ravager's 105 pt 11/11/10, 3 Dark Lances. And there are a plethora of new (relatively weak, expensive) guns, but they essentially highlight the fact one no longer gets the superb 36" S7 AP 3 Disintegrator, buster of Smurf heads supreme....

So Wjhat can one do now? The things I can see that are useful for playing the army are:

(i) Cheaper Wyches - they die the same at range, but the unit is bigger for the points and they get a 4+ Inv in CC, and are now troops so don't hog the Elite slots
(ii) The Splinter Cannon at 6 shots, 36" range, hit on 4+ gives a very good ant-infantry weapon - I think the Warrior squads will shift to being anti infantry rather than Anti Tank.
(iii) The Incubi are now Fleet, so they can keep up with a Lord - so replace the Warriors in the Retinue with what are effectively fast SM with power weapons, but keep 3 warriors with 2 Splinter Cannon for long distance/assault shooting hurt

My most successful approach has always been to shoot down as much as I can first, then hit with counterattacking combat units, of which only really the Talos and the Lord can stay in a fight - Wyches and Warp Beasts are there to delay things and cause enough hurt so the the Warrior gun line can safely keep shooting it up at a distance. This means 15 dark lances in a 1500 pt army, which i would be reluctant to lose.

So, unit by unit:

HQ- The Lord goes up by 30 pts so the Haemy is out, the Retinue is replaced with a few Incubi - smaller unit, less shooting hurt (I love bowlin along with 2 splinter cannon spitting as I go) but tough in combat.

Elites - keep the BeastMistresss and assume that GW will sort out the broken movement rules. As you now have to pay for an agonser, drop he Beasts (now called Khymera) and use Razor flocks instead - slightly weaker but have more wounds so hopefully similar buying time capability.

The new Warrior Retinue are called warrior Trueborn and are elites, so you can get 2 units of 5 With 2 Dark Lances each at the same cost as the old Warrior D/L squad - same punch but more fragile.

Wyches are no longer Elites, keep the unit and add a few more to get to the same points.

Troops - Given the increased anti-infantry firepower I would probably start with 3 x Warrior Raider squads, all Splinter Cannon armed, and put all of them on Raiders.

I thus calculate I can still get a 15 Dark Lance army for the same price as my old gun line one - but its easier to take down as Trueborn and Raiders don't have the ablative coatings of lots of warriors. The Beasts are sligtly less tough, but the the Lord and Talos are a bit better

Yeah, change sucks. They should have just buffed everything, right?
edit: Adapting is for the weak!

There are threads all over the discussion board that point out that Dark Eldar are NOT 'nerfed'.

I saw this same thread what, six months ago when BA came out?

Or was it four?

I don't really remember, but these threads come out EVERY release. Even Imperial Guard and Space Wolves got their own "OMG CODEX IS WEAK!" threads (the former especially, on a copule Guard forums I've watched).

Yeah seriously GW needs to start releasing codex's that are just brutally powerful and can't be beaten. That might please half the community? -_-

Beastmaster's skyboard lets her move as a beast.
The new beastmaster unit is awesome. Just charge out of a webway portal and watch things die.

Most armies got heavy weapons in infantry squads nerfed in 5th. Space Marines used to be able to take a heavy and special in a 5 man squad. There's no reason to complain about the same thing happening to dark eldar.

You do know there is an elite choice whyche squad, right?

Probably futile replying to this kind of post logically, but one might as well try, right?

For my part, I won't say either way as I haven't actually gotten a look at the codex, at least not one worth a gak.

But even the supposedly weakest codex released in fifth edition thus far-- Tyranids-- is better than any of the fourth edition codices. So I have serious doubts that Dark Eldar are weaker, especially after all the hype they got.

This is what I complained about.

People who can only see 1 side of a coin.

Irdiumstern wrote:Beastmaster's skyboard lets her move as a beast.
The new beastmaster unit is awesome. Just charge out of a webway portal and watch things die.

Most armies got heavy weapons in infantry squads nerfed in 5th. Space Marines used to be able to take a heavy and special in a 5 man squad. There's no reason to complain about the same thing happening to dark eldar.

You do know there is an elite choice whyche squad, right?

Probably futile replying to this kind of post logically, but one might as well try, right?

Beastmaster is a jump troop so moves 12", charges 6". Beasts move 6", charge 12". Units may not lose coherency, so the unit is reduced to moving at 6" move, 6" charge (unless I am missing something). That's slower than normal DE troop speed (who are Fleet), a bit sad for a Fast Attack unit.....

As you can see, not only can i read a Codex, i can count too

FWiW I also have IG, CSM and Orks and yes they all got nerfed in some areas when the new 'Dex arrived, but then other good things were given so it evened out - and so i didn't write the "We Woz Nerfed" post for them.

But this List has just had all the decent dangerous stuff priced wayyy up or taken away, and most of what has been added is expensive and not particularly useful. My take is that they are trying to push DE into a purely assault army, so the shooty DE is gone - there used to be 2 sides of a con, but now.....

Goddamn, this "we got suckered" stuff is somewhat taxing.
Well, to start, DE are still a decent codex. You were not nerfed, any more than CSM were (and they weren't, regardless of what some might say)
I give you the dichotomy of the tyranids, which I believe may be helpful for you:
Adapt or Die.

freecloud wrote:Beastmaster is a jump troop so moves 12", charges 6". Beasts move 6", charge 12". Units may not lose coherency, so the unit is reduced to moving at 6" move, 6" charge (unless I am missing something). That's slower than normal DE troop speed (who are Fleet), a bit sad for a Fast Attack unit.....

Re-read the entry. Under Wargear: "Skyboard (This is the same as the Hellions' skyboard on page 28, except that the Beastmaster's unit type is Beasts rather than Jump Infantry)."

freecloud wrote:As you can see, not only can i read a Codex, i can count too

....

Re BeastBoards, thats useful, thanks.....also, the fluff implies the Razorthingies go faster than the others, but I can't see anything that differentiates beast types movement?

And, if you can find also the bit that says the Dark Lance gets a 50% discount for the 2nd one taken in any Warrior squad, i would be very pleased :-D

Diversity diversity diversity.

Not every army plays the same way.

That's why Starcraft is so popular..

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Made in gb ]I give you the dichotomy of the tyranids, which I believe may be helpful for you:
Adapt or Die

Indeed

We woz not nerfed!

Seriously though. We didn't. We got a great new rulebook. Pain tokens and the synergy I see possible between the units in this codex has great potential. Its still a fast, hard hitting, fragile army. But it has way more options than the last for army builds and some great new units/changes.

Lol, "nerfed"

Haemis are more expensive because a) free token and b) wracks as troops.

Please refer to the other threads that will hopefully convince you of your error. You've not realised the extra speed you're getting now, either...

The new Venom 5 man transport skimmer is 55 points and can't field a Dark Lance - why would you not use a 60pt Raider?

The venom comes with a flickerfield base(giving a raider that makes it 70 points) and can throw out 12(!) poisoned shots when(because you know you will) you give it the 2nd splinter cannon.

^ It's a nice option...
It's like the Razorback for DEldar

I think the Dark Eldar "nerfing" the op refers to isn't as much a nerfing as a shifting of roles. Dark Lances are not that great, if they appeared in any other army they wouldn't be such a big deal. Well now Dark Eldar are not "that" army they used to be, so while having that auxiliary anti-tank ability can be useful in a given circumstance, it is not longer useful in every circumstance. You have to move on, just as so many armies no longer rely solely on troop choices to deal with enemy vehicles so are the Dark Eldar now. At this point Trueborn/venom saturation and Voidravens will do more than any single random Raider's darklance

Tzeentchling9 wrote:

The new Venom 5 man transport skimmer is 55 points and can't field a Dark Lance - why would you not use a 60pt Raider?

The venom comes with a flickerfield base(giving a raider that makes it 70 points) and can throw out 12(!) poisoned shots when(because you know you will) you give it the 2nd splinter cannon.

Only way to go :-)

Its 65 pts with the 2nd gun though....but even so, 12 shots at BS4, Wound on 4+, decks 4 grunts or 1.3 Smurfs per bound. Needs 2-3 bounds alive to pay for itself.

Stick 3 Trueborn on it with 2 more Cannon and thats 20 shots for 121pts, c 7 hits a bound. Effectively takes out an Ork or 'Nid warband in 2 bounds....

I think the Trueborn+venom really accentuates the "glass hammer" nature that Dark Eldar exemplified in their previous codex, that people who want the old style of play need to consider this combination. The units only flaw is the same flaw that every Dark Eldar unit has of being generally fragile, but it is both effective and fragile for less and thats why its a winner.

freecloud wrote:HQ - Dracon with Agoniser, Shadowfield, Haemy w Stinger, 8 warriors, 2 with Splinter cannon, in a Raider with Dark Lance
Elites - 9 Wyches, Succubus w/Agoniser
Elites - BeastMistress w/ 4 Warp Beasts
3 x Gun Squads - 14 Warriors each, incl 2 w/ DarkLances and 1 w/ Blaster
2 x Raider Squads - 9 Warriors, 1 w/Splinter Cannon, Raider w D/L
HW - 2 x Ravagers each w/ 3 D/L
HW - Talos

See, from this list, I can tell that you "got" the old book, it was an easy book to get. One, gigantic, prolonged no-brainer, when it came to army list building. Have you looked at scourges, hellions, reavers, or grotesques in the new book? That is called options. It is like they added new units without adding new units. What was a good deal was a REALLY good deal, what was terrrible was REALLY terrible, and all in all, you had about 5 units to choose from. Raiders were good, warriors were good, ravagers were good, wyches were good, and... thats about it, barring the HQ. What is good in the new book? EVERYTHING. Branch out, mix and match, experement. Warriors were really good even in 5th ed, and if the army was the house that Dark Lances built, then hey, it was what it was, but the astounding longevity of the warrior squad? It got better. S3 weapons vs 4+ poisoned? Awesome. Power from Pain? Great. Free? Are you kidding me? Dark Lance spam was a lack of foresight on the codex writer's part, and was a crutch that allowed them to stay compettitive for 12 years, unlike, say, necrons. Now that they are updated, the crutch is gone. Good riddance, dark lance spam, good riddance...

[/rant]

If I have to read one more, 'DE got nerfed thread'...

No DE are not nerfed. Yes some points have changed. Yes you will rebuild your DE army and stop relying on Lance Spam. Stop the freaking drama, crying, moaning and complaining.

Yes, I "got" the old list, and it took quite a bit of experimentation and tuning, and I now know the army well enough to look at the new 'Dex and have a good feel for what works or not.

Now i get the impression the old lags are largely saying WTF? We will all twiddle around with the army and will make it fly, but you can see just from the very basic maths (how many X, how many Y can I buy) that it ain't what it once was.

Reading all the comments on DE on Dakka dakka , I have come to the conclusion that there are essentially 2 types of players - those that like to play for fluff, and ones that like to play armies that are decently competitive (or can do the maths?).

Now fluff is good, but only gies so far - you have to enjoy playimg an army, and that means it has to compete.

So if I were GW I would have designed a new codex lke this with at last one reasonably easy-to-spot competitive option so all the new early buyers will rabeve and persuade others to buy.

As its is the early in will buy the figs, find the army is very hard to use, and say "it sucks". Puts off later adopters, ends DE new era, and that p*sses me off.

And the old DE list was not "Dark lance Spam" - if it was such an uber-list every powergamer would use it!

freecloud wrote:Specific changes are:

1. No more cheap Dracon Lord at 35 points, only the 60pt Archon
2. Haemonculus goes from 25 to 50 points
3, Lord's Retinue up from 8 to 12 points
4. Wyches are now 10, not 12 points
5. WarpBeasts etc are same price but the Codex is crocked here, as the Beastmistress is now a Jump Infantry and her Beasts are Beasts, ie they move differently to each other - how does that work in a game?
6. Warriors are now 9, not 8 points, the Dark Lance is now 25, not 10 pts and you have to take all 20 figures in a squad to get the 2nd Dark Lance. This raises the cost per lance from 50 points to 135 points. The Blaster is 50% more expensive but now has an 18" range.
7. Raider transports are now 60, not 55 points and get nothing new.
8. Ravager is unchanged
9. Talos gets twin linked Splinter cannon, which is better than the Splinter Rifle it had, and the Cannon's range goes up to 36" and now has 6 shots when mounted, 4 when moving as before (I like this, it differentiates between an MG in MMG or LMG mode) and counts as a poison weapon (like a Sniper weapon except it doesn't get the vehicle armour piercing)

So, to soundly defeat all of your point but one, here I go, down the line

1. Archons got better, and Dracons got removed... Check... Is this a bad thing? Other than you cannot min-max as well, an Archon, tooled up well is a sexy, sexy, beast.
2. There is a reason to take the heamy now, and you are complaining about a price bump?
3. So... I dont think that I can even respond to this one... they are completely differnt units... If you want the archon in a warrior unit, feel free. I for one, welcome the ability to take something other than warriors or incubi in his "retinue"
4. Well...
5. Beasts were vying for worst unit in the codex (and in turn, worst in the game, losing out only to Grotesques, Spawn, and SPAAAAAACE POPE!) and now are deathstar material.
6. So, for one point a model, 10 a squad, you get poisoned weapons and a chance at FNP... I wish my Guardsmen got that deal! Also, while 25 points for a Lance is a bit much, 10 is absurdly cheap. I would have gone for 15-20 myself, but I guess they layed the anti-DL spam hammer on a bit thick on this unit.
7. The one un-qualified nerf. Kinda needed it though. Then again, so do chimearas.
8. Other than moving and fireing all of its weapons! YEEEAH!
9. and it is cheaper, with more options.

I'm not saying that all DE lists were DL spam, just yours was, and that was the only thing that got worse, and the only leg you have to stand on.

EDIT: having a one-build army as you suggest ON PURPOSE is the worst idea, of all time, Ever... eeeEEeEVVEEEEEERRRRRRRRRrrrrRrrRRRRR... EVER!!! If you want an army that only has one build and 3/4 of the codex is never touched, and 3/4 of the models are never bought as a buissiness policy?! Not to mention killing the life span of most armys as people weep for lack of variety and options. You best be trollin', son!

All the OP seems to be saying is that the list he relied upon now longer works. I don't know of any other codexes that didn't require players to change their usual lists. This happens every time a codex is re-done. The DE have to rely less on long range shooting, but can still pack a lot of shorter-ranged AT firepower into a list. I always found that the dark lances on my Raiders and a blaster in each squad was more than enough AT firepower; now I'm looking at small Trueborn units armed with multiple blasters mounted in Venoms. I think the Venom will become a staple of DE lists that rely on skimmers.

I'm no pro, but it would appear from your post that the issue is that tactics you used in an old codex are no longer as effective with the new codex.

POint 9 - actually MCs are relentless so can always fire 6 shots on the move with the cannon.

Freecloud - the army is HARD. Both to play and to for people to play against. It is less glass cannon than before (as you can have meaningful saves with FNP quite easily) and you have troops that can stick around.

DOes your old min/maxed list work? No. DOes anyone actually care, given min/max has generally been removed, and you shouldnt at all be surprised? No. Has the army gone up in power, *dramatically*? YES, YES and thrice YES.

Dont write the codex off until you have seen the power of all the poison you now have, the IC and monster killers that are the Archons and the sheer power of trueborns dakka output.

I really haven't seen the codex personally.. but absolutely everything i have read about it screams improvement

On another note, the models are so much better than the old ones it's not even funny. Although old incubi still look pretty cool IMO

Agreed that the old Incubi still look good in my opinion. The new models were worth the long wait! Also agree that the new codex is a vast improvement. Giving us more ways/style to field Dark Eldar than the last codex made possible. My only real reservation/annoyance was the getting rid of characters on reaver jetbikes.

I like the fluff reasoning, plus it meant they ddnt have to try to make an archon / etc pose that would work on a jetbike....

The new models are stunning. Although it is 19 parts per jetbike (you can get away without 2, small details on underside, but that leaves 10 for the bike and 7 for the body)