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sniperjolly wrote:

freecloud wrote:Specific changes are:

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5. WarpBeasts etc are same price but the Codex is crocked here, as the Beastmistress is now a Jump Infantry and her Beasts are Beasts, ie they move differently to each other - how does that work in a game?
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So, to soundly defeat all of your point but one, here I go, down the line
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5. Beasts were vying for worst unit in the codex (and in turn, worst in the game, losing out only to Grotesques, Spawn, and SPAAAAAACE POPE!) and now are deathstar material.
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I don't believe Beastmasters are "vying for worst unit." @freecloud if you read the rules they say the Beastmasters, despite having skyboards, count as beasts and not jump infantry. This means per the core rulebook the whole unit can move 6", assault 12", and gain Fleet USR. There biggest advantage comes from mixed composition where you can protect your rending razorflocks by saturating the unit with enough Khymerae for 4+ invulnerable saves in wound allocation. That combined with the potentially largest unit sized will make it the ultimate beneficiary of Webway Portals. This is disputed, but the implication is that Beastmasters Power from Pain are confered onto the Beasts, which if correct only adds to their capabilitiy. I do think they can get a bit too bogged down in points and are doing a job other units can do.

All the talk of negativity towards the codex largely ignore the new units that the codex has shifted emphasis towards.

For example the best two troop options, in my opinion, are Hellions and Wracks. Hellions, in addition to potentially allowing a vehicle-les list make for a speedy, capable, and multi-purpose choices with a balance of shooting and combat abilities. Wracks are tougher and stronger taking advantage of Power from Pain, adding viable goal holding.

This actualy brings me to one problems with the codex. Power from Pain, I think is a big negative, not because of the rule it self but because of what it pushes you to do. Whether you ever get to use any of the benefits of Power from Pain or not you are effectively paying for it. So unless you build a list to optimize, to some degree, pain token generation, you won't make back the abstract cost of that rule. This is an easy enough thing to do by using Cronos, Haemonculi, Wracks, Grotesques, and right wargeat but unless you realize it you end up short changed.

One just needs to pretend none of one's units have it then it becomes an asset ("oooh shiny").

You can't ignore the fact that you're paying an incorporated premium cost for a rule you won't necessarily get to use. You have to imagine having an extra model in every unit and realize your giving that up for a rule you only sometimes benefit from. You can either take the "hit" or you can mitigate it by investing to make it actually pay off.

Except most games you should kill A non-vehicle unit. Especially with poison on everything.

I call the first "TAU WAZ NERFED" thread when the codex comes out.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except most games you should kill A non-vehicle unit. Especially with poison on everything.

Most every unit pays for it and of those not all will benefit from it. But even when you consider the units that do get that pain token if you pay, say 1 point extra for each model with the rule. You only break even benefiting from the rule if more than 1/2 of the models in the unit are still alive, since FNP's 50/50 against low end attacks effectively allow the units survivability to be equivalent to unit of double the size, but at that point you're really paying 2 points per model that gets to benefit.

So unless you can manage to either get multiple pain tokens very quickly or just start with pain tokens you're not likely to have enough models in the unit that at face value pay off that abstract cost.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I call the first "TAU WAZ NERFED" thread when the codex comes out.

A number of those have been shut down already. This is much better. Its constructive criticism. The codex has weak points, divergences from the previous edition, and issues players must consider in building their list, but once those are considered I believe more players can play competitively.

Which is why haemis are 3 for 1.

Exactly! But thats what I mean by mitigating the cost. Too many lists, that are stay overs from the previous codex, have left Haemonculi out. Too few Wracks and Cronos since there no models yet. Its just in building lists with the new codex some combination of these units really shouldn't be considered optional.

But lists that are holdovers from a prior edition of "X" army *always* need changing. Thats the point of a new codex.

Given wytches dropped 2 points its hard to see this 1ppm cost you are mooting. Wytches were good before, theyre still good if less random and less paperwork with drug rolls....

agroszkiewicz wrote:I'm no pro, but it would appear from your post that the issue is that tactics you used in an old codex are no longer as effective with the new codex.

It's amusing that once again, the real answer to this thread is, 'learn to play.'

Not really "learn to play" so much as "understand that things have changed, as you would expect"

nosferatu1001 wrote:But lists that are holdovers from a prior edition of "X" army *always* need changing. Thats the point of a new codex.

Given wytches dropped 2 points its hard to see this 1ppm cost you are mooting. Wytches were good before, theyre still good if less random and less paperwork with drug rolls....

That what I'm saying, looking around too many holdover list have failed to adjust themselves and thus are suffering for it.

Wyches are a good example, one player I know, only used the point saving to buy more Wyches instead of considering Wracks or Cronos or any of the other new units that help plug gaps.

It seems that enough old guard DE players are reluctant to adopt the newer units. I write off the reluctance largely to models being available, but the bravado and volume with which some of them then put down the codex for being a nerf is largely unfounded because of that lack of adoption and experiance with the newer units of the codex.

Yep, as I've been saying in about 3 threads now new DE absolutely rweck face *in actual games*. Mathhammer really fails when trying to assess fragile units, as it doesnt ever take into consideration, nor can it, the effects of terrain, fire lane blocking / splitting, that turn something that LOOKS weak into something that isnt.

The old DE codex, on paper, is weaker than the current one. That codex, esepcially at 1500 and to a lesser extent 1750 was still a competitive army in the hands of *skilled* generals. Now? The power level shot right up, longevity of troops was sorted (ptp, T4 wracks) - yet on paper those are not apparent when making baic mathematical calcs, as the models are too simplistic to accurate model this type of army.

I say that same thing anytime someone tries to apply math hammer to fragile units. Its fails to consider the aspect of the game those fragile armies most rely on and thus they're a wild card to extreme math hammer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not really "learn to play" so much as "understand that things have changed, as you would expect"

Point. The more gracious wording should probably have been, 'take the time to understand how the new codex works instead of griping how it's not the same as the old one.'

Meh, straight and to the point is quicker

Amusingly in the other thread DAR is going to "prove" how BA/SW stomp DE using simple mathammer (it will be simple because a) not talked at all about binomial to even account for some expectation b) it cannot account for the table and c) not enough dice in one game to even approximate a statistically significant sample) despite having no competitive real world experience with DE, which shows the exact opposite is true.

aka_mythos wrote:
This actualy brings me to one problems with the codex. Power from Pain, I think is a big negative, not because of the rule it self but because of what it pushes you to do. Whether you ever get to use any of the benefits of Power from Pain or not you are effectively paying for it. So unless you build a list to optimize, to some degree, pain token generation, you won't make back the abstract cost of that rule. This is an easy enough thing to do by using Cronos, Haemonculi, Wracks, Grotesques, and right wargeat but unless you realize it you end up short changed.

Yes, that was what I was getting at when I wrote originally that the 'Dex is now more monochrome - you have essentially pre-paid for a close combat army, so the shooty option is less viable as you are now paying silly points for it in comparison with other armies' firepower.

Thanks for clearing up the Beast movement thing - though losing a free Agoniser means the unit is not quite what it once was for the same points.

By the way, how many of all you people saying that us Old Skool DE players are just inflexible whiners have actually played the DE army, and thus know what they are actually talking about? Two months ago (Before Codex) if I met another DE player a year I would be overjoyed, now here I have a horde of experts taking me to task!

Just Sayin.....

Played for about 8 years with Dark Eldar being my first army. Though really lost the heart to play with them last few years. Mainly due to literally 2 builds being viable. Now we have improvements across the board, variety in how to field armies and shiney new models. I couldnt be happier. Christmas has come early for me .

Well the Necron player in are group, just started a DE army and it is no way nerfed or under powered. Of course he also has the best win record of the place with his Necron, so harder to play armys are his thing. Maybe becouse he never played DE before he isn't stuck in a army list and can see how the army should work now.

aka_mythos wrote:You can't ignore the fact that you're paying an incorporated premium cost for a rule you won't necessarily get to use. You have to imagine having an extra model in every unit and realize your giving that up for a rule you only sometimes benefit from. You can either take the "hit" or you can mitigate it by investing to make it actually pay off.

What I'm saying is that personally, I feel, that the power level of the codex more than makes up for any 'hidden costs' that PfP has, because look at it, the points for are +5 on a raider, -3 for wyches, -3 on jetbikes etc. I don't see where you're coming from with this premium? It's a huge compliment for any list with only one Hq slot used and some points.
It's free as far as I can tell, I guess is what I'm getting at, and the codex has recive inexpensive choices which promote it!

I dont get that you believe it is a "close combat" army - it certainly has STRONG cc, but you're clearly missing what so many have seen: that army can EASILY put out 120+ poison shots, at BS4, per turn. THat many shots let you destroy Ork foot hordes in one turn (80 hits, 40 wounds, 20 ish saves assuming cover) down to taking Ld tests or running status. Lucky rolling and theyre all dead. Guard blob squad? Reduce it to 10 guys (potentially killing the odd commisar or sarge before then, with wound allocation) before you charge in.

Have played it (proxy) for quite a few games now. Horrid, horrid army to play against, thats for sure. Makes my chaos marines even more sad....

freecloud wrote:By the way, how many of all you people saying that us Old Skool DE players are just inflexible whiners have actually played the DE army, and thus know what they are actually talking about?

I'm not saying they're inflexible or whiney. They're vocal about the percieved short comings only because even with the codex out, they haven't had the opportunity to try out the newer units and combinations.

ChrisCP wrote:What I'm saying is that personally, I feel, that the power level of the codex more than makes up for any 'hidden costs' that PfP has, because look at it, the points for are +5 on a raider, -3 for wyches, -3 on jetbikes etc. I don't see where you're coming from with this premium? It's a huge compliment for any list with only one Hq slot used and some points.
It's free as far as I can tell, I guess is what I'm getting at, and the codex has recive inexpensive choices which promote it!

Since the Dark Eldar codex came out I've seen DE armies based on compositions of the old codex using the new codex tabled despite the new advantages and improved "power level". This says to any rational person there is some inequity between the two. I believe its "abstract" cost of PFP.

The problem I point to with PFP is not with the rule itself. The rule is good and is worth while. The problem is that people who are building lists aren't aware of the fact that they need to do more to make it work for them.

I said abstract cost, not hidden, because I do not believe its anything consistent unit to unit and isn't just a concrete point cost, but a potential necessary investment of other points. It steers how we should build DE armies; the armies that fail are the ones that fight the nature of the codex and the advantage of PFP. Its something you've already paid for to not use it and make it work for you is to waste it.

The other part I had spoken of, points and maximizing the effectiveness of the rule, was just to point out how the rule does little without a list that makes the benefits available sooner.

I'm a very old DE player and I'm am completely overjoyed at getting to dissect and learn how to play my army again with new toys and rules. Yes, there is the familiarity of fast and fragile but that's moot.

Looking through the new rules, thinking how new gear will work best in combination with other and the units you put it in...all that is fun stuff I haven't had to do in 8 years or so.

I'm glad the conversation over in this thread is a conversation...I may have to stay out of the DAR one, meh..was my choice.

Rymafyr wrote:I'm a very old DE player and I'm am completely overjoyed at getting to dissect and learn how to play my army again with new toys and rules. Yes, there is the familiarity of fast and fragile but that's moot.

Looking through the new rules, thinking how new gear will work best in combination with other and the units you put it in...all that is fun stuff I haven't had to do in 8 years or so.

I'm glad the conversation over in this thread is a conversation...I may have to stay out of the DAR one, meh..was my choice.

I know that feeling. Its fun to rethink and reassess options ( and actually have more to choose from ) after so long.

i will lol hard when the "NECRONS ARE NERFED" tread comes

nosferatu1001 wrote:I dont get that you believe it is a "close combat" army - it certainly has STRONG cc, but you're clearly missing what so many have seen: that army can EASILY put out 120+ poison shots, at BS4, per turn. THat many shots let you destroy Ork foot hordes in one turn (80 hits, 40 wounds, 20 ish saves assuming cover) down to taking Ld tests or running status. Lucky rolling and theyre all dead. Guard blob squad? Reduce it to 10 guys (potentially killing the odd commisar or sarge before then, with wound allocation) before you charge in.

Have played it (proxy) for quite a few games now. Horrid, horrid army to play against, thats for sure. Makes my chaos marines even more sad....

The DE was always underrated as a horde killer - my Warriors wiped out more than one 'Nid, IG or Tau squad with their trusty rifles, BS4 2 shots is a wonderful thing. The 4+ against S4 troops is IMO *the* big + of the new army, add a Splinter Cannon and the average warrior is no longer scared of Smurfs, so you are clearly going to take at least 2 units of at 10 figs (Maths hammer says each unit will put c 21 wounds oiut over 6 bounds).

The issue then moves to who is going to do the tankbusting, it is DE rule of thumb that you need a D/L per 100 points. The cheapest DL is at 35pts (Ravager), next is Trueborns at 49pts, (4 troops, 2 D/L) the Raiders at 60pts, though Trueborn will probably be a bit higher as you add troops as bullet shields to keep it going (my view is that they will be nearly a wash with Raiders, and Raiders also move position and carry people at no extra cost, so at 1500pt you are looking at 3 Ravagers, 4 Raiders and either 2 more Raiders or a Trueblood hit squad with 2 D/L - ie c 650 - 660 pts.

The question is what to put on the 4 Raiders - assume 2-3 x 10 man Warrior squads w/ Splinter Cannon and Blaster (cf above discussion) and thats another c 350 pts, a unit or 2 of of 10 Wyches + toys @ 120 and thats a minimum spend of about 1100 pts. assume Hizzoner + Raider + a few Incubi and a Haemy is 250 points, and thats 14 D/L & 3 Blasters locked and loaded and you have c 150pts to spend on situational toys to kill Horde. MEQ or Tanks.

The OLD rule of thumb was 1DL per 100, as that was your only choice

Try Reavers. Hell try venom blaster trueborn D/S in using the Baron.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:I call the first "TAU WAZ NERFED" thread when the codex comes out.

Awwww, man! Of course they were already nerfed by 5th edition.

I don't know what the OP is crying about, at least his basic troops can hit what they shoot at and don't die when someone breaths on the table....not heavily, I think a slight sigh is enough to knock my firewarriors over.

freecloud wrote:By the way, how many of all you people saying that us Old Skool DE players are just inflexible whiners have actually played the DE army, and thus know what they are actually talking about? Two months ago (Before Codex) if I met another DE player a year I would be overjoyed, now here I have a horde of experts taking me to task!

Just Sayin.....

This, what i've noticed is that while many people are becoming alot more "vocal" about the DE dex, alot of them are just BA/SW players trying to say "Get off our backs, we don't have the best dex anymore".

The only major problem I see with DE is the plateau-effect. Meaning that at a certain point, your veil will go away and people will understand what you are bringing to the table, and be able to easy incorperate not even 20% of their list into crippling your forces (so, effectively wielding it in an effective All-Comers list without dedicating too many resources to it). As of right now, they will probably do quite well when wielded by the right opponents... while I initially dismissed them on this very merit, they actually to me feel much akin to C:SM and C:IG to a certain extent. If the flow of DE players increases as much as many people seem to be predicting (i'm not going to hold my breath on this one) I see a few DE Gems that would sneak out a top8 or a top4 place. But I really don't know how they are going to consistantly win in the current meta... (but then again, I could be ((VERY)) wrong, many people seem to disagree with me so take my words with a grain of salt). I do like this thread however, far more then mine (mine diverged into what seemed to be nothing but petty name calling and 'cause I right' claims... going WAY off the original topic...)

The one major difference I see here is people actually referencing strategy (as opposed to simply saying "well, you shuda been faster with ur dark elfs").

one piece of wargear that I have been entirely split over however has to be the "hexrifle". What are the general thoughts on this piece of wargear?

nosferatu1001 wrote:The OLD rule of thumb was 1DL per 100, as that was your only choice

Try Reavers. Hell try venom blaster trueborn D/S in using the Baron.

How long have you been playing DE?

There is a reason the old rule of thumb exists, which is people do try all these things - have you ever tried Reavers? Or Venoms? Have you ever put one in 18" range of a half decent opponent?

I have...which is why anybody who plays this army knows you want to stay at 36" and shoot! DE are paper tigers, you want to do as much hurty stuff while as few as the oppo's hurty stuff can hit you.....