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Wondering what your thoughts are on the load out of an archon.

Is a Djinn blade a good deal? Two extra attacks for 1 in 6 chance that you hit yourself. Otherwise stay with the old standby Agonizer.

Off-hand other base goodies:

Ghost Armor
Blaster - both options are special weapons so no bonus in HTH for a pistol.
Combat Drugs
Shadow Field

Other options may be situational but thinking the above 4 and a special weapon.

Also wondering what others think of the archon retinue.

Medusae look potentially good.
The Sslith again look pretty useful.
Llamia seem worthless since there are few options that really help the archon - only poison options are splinter pistol and poison blade and poison blade is already 2+

My thought would be skip them, go with 8 incubi and 1 haemonculi for the pain token so all 10 would be FNP.

Moving thread to Tactics.

Well, the freak show is more a liability for an Archon.
It is good for distributing wounds among the unit, but
a smart enemy will target the freaks.
The end of the story can be that the freaks lose combat and
your precious Archon starts running.

Remember that you want an Archon to take on the enemy premium assault unit, not a mediocre unit in cc.

I think:

Agonizer- cheap, versatile, effective
Blaster- not too many points for a nice anti tank weapon and an extra kill before CC. It's 15 points and can be dropped, but why waste that super high BS?
Shadowfield- might as well just add it to the base cost
Ghostplate Armor-not mandatory, but cheap and gives the Archon some survivability once the field breaks. Still, once that happens he is basically screwed anyway.
Combat Drugs- cheap and good

That comes to around 145 points. Use it right and he is a combat monster.

That was kind of my thoughts - individually they look good but the retinue is not focused enough to support the archon.

Thinking the 8 incubi + haemonculus + archon will be the HTH monster unit. Still can get shot the heck up but it is going to do a lot better taking on premier enemy close combat.

Any thoughts on the djinn blade? It looks intruguing but I hesitate on all but poison blade (cheap) and agonizer (4+ wound) because you no longer have purposed drugs so we are talking 4+ attacks at S 3 which means you are only wounding on 5s against most tough HTH opponents.

WS 7 means you are hitting on 3s for the most part but if you are only wounding on 5s, you have just handed it right back to your opponent IMO.

Thinking the 8 incubi + haemonculus + archon will be the HTH monster unit. Still can get shot the heck up but it is going to do a lot better taking on premier enemy close combat.

Not against a Deathstar unit like Assault Termies.

A dijnn blade looks not bad but the Archon will eventually be S3 (with drugs eventually S4)
and so her impact will be not sufficient enough against tougher
opponents like Tyrants.

Deathstar assault termies are a problem for DE - maybe wyches who will lose but potentially can lock them up for a time.

MCs may beat down the Incubi but then again they have to survive a lot of splinter fire and a random dark lance or 3.

I am thinking of a shooty DE build not a wych cult so will be built to raider squads and one archon unit.

Indeed, Wyches can lock Termies, but you need two units to achieve this.
The Hekatrices need agonizers here and impaler would be mandatory.
I did this rather often in the past.

Incubi excel against units that have no armor ignoring weapons
like Tacticals (just the Sergeant).
They are not meant to go after death star units.

I use my Arcon to carve up basic troops. I leave opposing deathstarts for my wyches and bloodbrides. With this in mind - here is my Arcon load out:

Agonizer
Clone Field
Ghostplate armor
Combat Drugs

This keeps him cheap but very effective. I assign any powerfist hits to the clone field (no instant death for me!) and use the ghost plate for the rest. This way I can actually use the 3 wounds he has - not just die to a "1_ on a shadowfield role against a str 6 hit. I don't give him any upgraded shooting attack as I am almost always using fleet to get into assault.

My loadout is this:

agonizer, combat drugs, shadow field, haywire grenades.

What Jgrand said.

You can add a Phantasm Grenade Launcher if you attach him to Incubi.

IMO the court is not as great as Incubi - plus the Incubi can have more fun options, actually have models, and are much easier to keep track of.

JGrand wrote:Blaster- not too many points for a nice anti tank weapon and an extra kill before CC. It's 15 points and can be dropped, but why waste that super high BS?

Ooh. Never give him a blaster. If you're dying for more anti tank give him a blast pistol. Trust me, when you get into combat you're going to be glad of the extra attack...*

*you can ignore this advice if you're a dice god.

comrade_nikolai wrote:

JGrand wrote:Blaster- not too many points for a nice anti tank weapon and an extra kill before CC. It's 15 points and can be dropped, but why waste that super high BS?

Ooh. Never give him a blaster. If you're dying for more anti tank give him a blast pistol. Trust me, when you get into combat you're going to be glad of the extra attack...*

*you can ignore this advice if you're a dice god.

So you don't think any of the weapons qualify as a special CC weapon? (e.g. a powerfist) Then I agree with you and the blast pistol or base splinter pistol is the right way to go.

My thought is that, outside a power weapon or poison blade, the others (agonizer, djinn blade, electro... whip, husk blade) would all be considered specials and a pistol would not qualify for the 2 CCW bonus.

Im a fan of the cheap and effective Archon.

Shadow Field
Agonizer
Drugs

as a minimum.

Then add Phantasm (if running with incubi)... I am
Haywires

I like the idea of the blaster. Nice.

comrade_nikolai wrote:

JGrand wrote:Blaster- not too many points for a nice anti tank weapon and an extra kill before CC. It's 15 points and can be dropped, but why waste that super high BS?

Ooh. Never give him a blaster. If you're dying for more anti tank give him a blast pistol. Trust me, when you get into combat you're going to be glad of the extra attack...*

*you can ignore this advice if you're a dice god.

Could you switch out your CCW for a Blaster from the weapons list and take a Djin Blade from the second item list? Then shoot with the Blaster and fight hth with Djin Blade and pistol. My 40K rules are pretty rusty, so I don't know for sure if this is legal or not.

The clone field seems like a better deal than the shadow field. There's always the possibility to roll a "1" on the shadow field and die, while the clone field guarantees immunity to at least one hit. With proper positioning and his high WS, I don't anticipate Archons taking too many hits unless they're being overwhelmed anyway.

I think the blast pistol should be standard, and drugs are always handy.

The djin blade is probably not a good idea, although RAW I think the clone field can absorb hits from the djin blade, so that may mitigate some of the problem. If so, it may be worth taking.

The changes to the agonizer are also interesting. Previously, it glanced vehicles on a "6", if I recall, but that rule is no longer present. That means the user uses his strength, which I assume was included to let the archon take advantage of the soul trap. Another potential anti-tank weapon to consider.

The power weapon option is decent if you plan on just hunting standard troops, as is the poison weapon. Both benefit from power through pain with the furious charge bonus. but I wouldn't bring along a soul trap, as you'll have a heck of a time killing any ICs or MCs.

Agonizers and husk blades would go better with a soul trap. They don't do so well against standard troops, especially considering their cost, and the husk blade can be a bit of a crap shoot against higher toughness creatures.

DAaddict wrote:

comrade_nikolai wrote:

JGrand wrote:Blaster- not too many points for a nice anti tank weapon and an extra kill before CC. It's 15 points and can be dropped, but why waste that super high BS?

Ooh. Never give him a blaster. If you're dying for more anti tank give him a blast pistol. Trust me, when you get into combat you're going to be glad of the extra attack...*

*you can ignore this advice if you're a dice god.

So you don't think any of the weapons qualify as a special CC weapon? (e.g. a powerfist) Then I agree with you and the blast pistol or base splinter pistol is the right way to go.

My thought is that, outside a power weapon or poison blade, the others (agonizer, djinn blade, electro... whip, husk blade) would all be considered specials and a pistol would not qualify for the 2 CCW bonus.

bgb, p. 42: Fighting with 2 single handed weapons:

A normal and a special weapon: These models gain one additional atack. All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses.

Power fists, thunder hammers, and lightning claws are an exception to this. Only a 2nd power fist, thunder hamer, or lightning claw can confer a bonus attack to a model equipped with one of these weapons.

DAaddict wrote:Wondering what your thoughts are on the load out of an archon.

Is a Djinn blade a good deal? Two extra attacks for 1 in 6 chance that you hit yourself. Otherwise stay with the old standby Agonizer.

Off-hand other base goodies:

Ghost Armor
Blaster - both options are special weapons so no bonus in HTH for a pistol.
Combat Drugs
Shadow Field

Other options may be situational but thinking the above 4 and a special weapon.

Also wondering what others think of the archon retinue.

Medusae look potentially good.
The Sslith again look pretty useful.
Llamia seem worthless since there are few options that really help the archon - only poison options are splinter pistol and poison blade and poison blade is already 2+

My thought would be skip them, go with 8 incubi and 1 haemonculi for the pain token so all 10 would be FNP.

I would take the Duke instead of Archon if I don't need grenades as he costs almost the same as Archon with similar gear. His weapon allows rerolls with str unlike Agonizer and he has amazing buffs. Blast Pistol and Blaster are potentially waste of points if you ever want to fleet.

Lhamia are almost identical to Ur-Ghul in killing potential against MEQ and you have to take one of both anyways. Medusa is potentially deadly but also potentially useless. Max Slyths and an extra Raider are reasons why Court should be taken. Other members aren't bad but I would take more than required only if I had spare points. You should also avoid enemy deathstars and leave them to Wyches because lack of invulnerable saves hurts against power weapons.

Incubi and Court are comparable when the costs are the same (So 3 Slyths and 1 of others versus 4 Incubi one of them klaivex or 6 normal Incubi.) but obviously Incubi are more killy if you invest 100+ extra points in them. Choosing either is not something that will make or break your list though as they have little bit different strengths.

Joining Haemonculus however causes the unit not able to fleet and just leaving him stranded in midfield while the rest of the squad zooms away doesn't seem very good either.

Agonizers on models with Drugs(or Str 3+ and power from Pain) are generally a bad idea, especially if you plan on attaching a haemonculous to the unit. Double points for an always wound on a 4+power weapon on any model that will Wound Marines on a 4+ in 1 out of every 6 games(1 out of every 3 with the attached haemonculous) is a poor way to spend your points. My local Meta has what seems to be fewer than average marine Players(a few of them are Orks, so the above still applies) so those 1 in 6 games I would be wounding with a normal power weapon on a 3+; so I sure as heck am not doubling the Cost of my power weapon to make it harder to wound models.

Also note that Agonizers are not poison (4+), so against equal or lower Toughness models their is no re-roll; it remains 4+ with no benefit.

Best options I can see are: huskblade, Soul-trap, Ghostplate and maybe a blast pistol and Clone or shadow field.

the Court do not seem terribly good, but can have their Place when you Max out on Ur-ghuls, Sslyth, and maybe Medusae.

The incubi and Haemonculous are pretty nasty with the Above Archon.

Your "Take all comers" Archon is here.

160pts
-
Combat Drugs-Just because anything but a roll of 3 helps you in CC with this build...despite what the above have said. 10pts isnt THAT much of an expenditure.
Shadowfeild- duh
Ghostplate-because we're responsible (But I could leave it at home, Initiative is the only armour you need)
Agoniser-so your heavy armour/toughness doesnt matter
Venom Blades-so your lightly armoured/toughness doesnt matter

The only retinue for an Archon has been, and only ever will be, Incubi, oh yea, and speaking of which....

Dont forget your Phantasm Grenade Launcher...so your incubi can assault into cover.

Now you have FNP!

Shadow or Clone Fields + some form of power weapon is the only mandatory equipment imo. The rest depends very much on what you want to use him for and how cheap you want to keep him.

Drugs are definitely good but probably can be dropped on cheaper Archons with Agonisers (+1 WS does nothing, +1 S does nothing, 3D6 run isn't very helpful, although re-rolls to wound is nice). Ghostplate is helpful but definitely a luxury, although probably required on Clonefield Archons. Phantasm Grenade Launcher is obviously going to depend on who you plan on running him with.

My preference is going to be the Huskblade/Soul Trap Archon to chase after characters (not that he can't make a mess of standard infantry either). Incubi can deal with almost any infantry unit in combat and in any case with all the Splinter weaponry DE armies are going to have I don't think dealing with infantry is going to be as much of a problem.

Deadshane1 wrote:Your "Take all comers" Archon is here.

160pts
-
Combat Drugs-Just because anything but a roll of 3 helps you in CC with this build...despite what the above have said. 10pts isnt THAT much of an expenditure.
Shadowfeild- duh
Ghostplate-because we're responsible (But I could leave it at home, Initiative is the only armour you need)
Agoniser-so your heavy armour/toughness doesnt matter
Venom Blades-so your lightly armoured/toughness doesnt matter

The only retinue for an Archon has been, and only ever will be, Incubi, oh yea, and speaking of which....

Dont forget your Phantasm Grenade Launcher...so your incubi can assault into cover.

Now you have FNP!

So your "take all comers" Archon is given 2 different Special Close combat weapons so you can never gain the Bonus attack for 2 CCWs.
25 points for a Phantasm is really pricey; but if it is just to get the Incubi to assault into/through cover effectively then I could see it.
Ghostplate and Shadow field is wasting points; just take the Shadow field, you will have the incubi for Shooting protection, and the 2+ Invul for melee protection.
Where exactly are you getting the FNP? Yes you could get it in about 1 in 6 games; but you will not get it until you either attach a haemoncluous or Destroy a unit in the other 5 games.

Hmm I cant see why ghostplate and shadowfield would both be needed because simply if you fail that 2++ you either just died or pretty much dead. As for clone field eh I wouldnt go for it negating D3 wounds sounds good and all but umm that can go horribly wrong (especially against orks) as for weaponry I'll have to say Agoniser it never failed me before and I dont see why it would now, the huskblade sounds cool and all but if I recall you the archon is still only S3 so chances are its gonna be pretty hard to actually get that instant death not to mention it's utterly useless against daemons. Combat Drugs seems a fairly solid choice but do those effects transfer to the incubi he would be with or no?

Also back to the agoniser there is also the soultrap which is really good, however consider this if you have huskblade you probably want soultrap BUT what if you dont get to kill an enemy IC or MC at all or near endgame was it really worth it then? I'd say safer bet would be agoniser that way you wont have to really pay for two things to make another more effective. Remember it's only an Archon yes very killy with Incubi but it isnt worth investing so many points into, just a thought

Archons should always run with a soul trap if you want them to do CC. It helps solve that pesky issue of a low S by very quickly pumping it up (I've actually hit a S10 two times so far).

vishra wrote:Archons should always run with a soul trap if you want them to do CC. It helps solve that pesky issue of a low S by very quickly pumping it up (I've actually hit a S10 two times so far).

Yeah there is that, issue is if you do take soultrap and get the higher S does that affect your to wound roll needed with an agoniser? If not then I'll try out the huskblade agoniser loadout shortly. Really you have hit S10 twice so far? Not bad Im happy to hear that also just a question about the huskblade it does also count as a power weapon right? (still studying my dex sorry heck by the time anyone responds to this I'll probably know cause I'm about to go get it and read a few entries anyway)

It won't effect the Agpniser: Agonisers, while not poison weapons, act like them in that they will ALWAYS wound on a 4+; that's what makes them awesome for Dracons and Sybarites, but not so good for the Archon. Go with a Huskblade/ Soul Trap/ Clone field combo as the base, then add any other goodies you want.

And yes, Huskblades are power weapons that insta-kill on unsaved wounds, which is why I feel its such a good thing. All you need to do is to kill one IC or MC, and you now start to wound on a 2+ or 3+.

Huskblade for me, and probably the Soul Trap.

But for the cheaper alternative, I quite fancy the Venom Whip thingy. Halving my opponent S appeals a quite a bit!

The clone field seems like a better deal than the shadow field. There's always the possibility to roll a "1" on the shadow field and die, while the clone field guarantees immunity to at least one hit. With proper positioning and his high WS, I don't anticipate Archons taking too many hits unless they're being overwhelmed anyway.

How about a melee with a Hive Tyrant.
If this beast hits with S6, then you can't afford to let some hits through.

vishra wrote:It won't effect the Agpniser: Agonisers, while not poison weapons, act like them in that they will ALWAYS wound on a 4+; that's what makes them awesome for Dracons and Sybarites, but not so good for the Archon. Go with a Huskblade/ Soul Trap/ Clone field combo as the base, then add any other goodies you want.

And yes, Huskblades are power weapons that insta-kill on unsaved wounds, which is why I feel its such a good thing. All you need to do is to kill one IC or MC, and you now start to wound on a 2+ or 3+.

Ah okay then huskblade for the archon (especially if you fight nids ) anyway I dont really like the clonefield I think shadowfield is better simply because you only negate D3 wounds roll badly and chances are bad things happen so much so I doubt ghostplate would help worth anything, I'm sorry but it is hard to ignore that 2++

If I was going to take the stock Archon, I would definitely go with Huskblade/Shadowfield/Phantasm Grenade Launcher/Ghost Plate/Soul Trap/Drugs.

I would be running him with an extremely large unit of Incubi to get my money's worth from the grenades, and since they can cover units - it frees him up to take his first IC head to power up.