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Deathstar assault termies are a problem for DE - maybe wyches who will lose but potentially can lock them up for a time.

Why are you assaulting them at all? 2 rounds of shooting from 4 venoms will, on odds, drop 5. If he brings more than 10, I suppose that's a problem, but I haven't seen too many people bringing that many.

The clone field seems like a better deal than the shadow field. There's always the possibility to roll a "1" on the shadow field and die, while the clone field guarantees immunity to at least one hit. With proper positioning and his high WS, I don't anticipate Archons taking too many hits unless they're being overwhelmed anyway.

Let's look at some of the builds in this thread. They carry what? 6 attacks on the charge typically? That's 4 hits, and probably 2 dead (assuming agonizer or t3 opponent). There are plenty of opponents that will have the mass or quantity of attacks to put hits on you. Let's say instead of rolling a 1 for the shadow field, you roll a 1 for the clone field. Where does that leave you? In a unit of incubi, where do you suppose I, as the opponent, will be allocating my remaining attacks?

Hmm I cant see why ghostplate and shadowfield would both be needed because simply if you fail that 2++ you either just died or pretty much dead.

Or you may have lost 1 wound. So you would have 2 left. I would assume that possibility is one you're overlooking?

And yes, Huskblades are power weapons that insta-kill on unsaved wounds, which is why I feel its such a good thing. All you need to do is to kill one IC or MC, and you now start to wound on a 2+ or 3+.

How often is your archon charging MCs and ICs? Nids? Sure. Other than that? Using the 6 attack above scenario, he's only doing .66 wounds to most T4, 4++ save enemies. Worse to 3++. Not exactly super reliable. You could get one of 2 drug effects as well (+1 S or reroll wounds), or have 2 pain tokens, but that is far from reliable.

I would be running him with an extremely large unit of Incubi to get my money's worth from the grenades, and since they can cover units - it frees him up to take his first IC head to power up.

It would require some moronic positioning by your opponent to give you a shot with your archon to get in base with his IC. MCs are far more likely. And a large investment of incubi is effective, but still fragile. Very fragile, even with FNP. Don't know if I think large investments in points are the way to go with them.

so the court of the archon isnt a retinue.

Just saying.

Its a seperate squad option that count as a unit but no where does it say its a retinue, and no where does it say its bought as a retinue, and no where does it say the archon has to be part of the unit.

Unless I am missing something, someone please correct me if so.

i dont care for the court simply becaues the min selection of each type is 1 so if you take it you have to take 1 of everything at least. If you could just take 5 ur ghouls I would every time.... :(

Clone field is better than shadowfield only if you are going 1v1. On average an archon will negate 2 hits before wound rolls, which is the average amount of hits a character with 4 attacks will have. With the loss of being able to take a skyboard/reaver the chance your archon is 1v1ing is low unless you put him in his/her own venom or something...which the venom fluff does mention

Husk Blade is pretty much mandatory IMO. Expensive but pretty much means you can kill any IC (in 1 round of combat) that isn't an Eternal Warrior or a MC. He can take an agonizer as well for those things though.

Soul Trap is only 10 points? Don't you have to take it?

I think huskblade/shadowfeild/drugs

you are now a IC hunter. If you touch him he is probably dead. and your 2+Inv tends to never fail.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
+ soul trap.

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:
It would require some moronic positioning by your opponent to give you a shot with your archon to get in base with his IC. MCs are far more likely. And a large investment of incubi is effective, but still fragile. Very fragile, even with FNP. Don't know if I think large investments in points are the way to go with them.

I guess you showed me, dude who isn't even the thread starter but is taking it upon himself to try and disprove opinions?

Like hijacking other people's threads?

Incubi are not fragile with feel no pain. So you're wrong.

What ICs are you seeing often? I see very few. Guard don't care. Marine HQs are typically a tough nut for that build, as you're looking at 6 attacks, 4 hits, 1.33 wounds, and usually a 3++ or 4++ to get through.

MCs are far more common, and he has trouble wounding them a good chunk of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I guess you showed me, dude who isn't even the thread starter but is taking it upon himself to try and disprove opinions?

Like hijacking other people's threads?

Incubi are not fragile with feel no pain. So you're wrong.

Wow. I think you need to get a bit tougher skin there. Just to be clear, I'm "disproving" nothing. I'm stating my opinion. As for hijacking other people's threads, I believe the point of a thread is to present an idea (in this case, DE archons) or question, and solicit the opinions and thoughts of others. As I was posting on-topic...well, not really sure what you're referring to. As for being a "thread starter"...umm...so if I respond to a thread, versus start a thread, my post has less merit. I should just start posting up as many random threads as possible, just to do...what exactly?

Back on a relevant point to the thread, incubi, even with FNP, are fairly fragile. There are enough AP1-3 weapons that are common, with sufficient strength and volume to quickly reduce an expensive squad to nothing. So committing a significant amount of points in a list with relatively low cost units for the most part is playing into that difficulty.

If I take an Archon, it will be with an Agoniser, Ghostplate, Clone Field and Combat Drugs. The Soul Trap/Huskblade combo is tempting, but it's just way too expensive... if I'm spending that level of points on an HQ it's going to be Sliscus.

Incidentally, I think there needs to be clarification (from GW) on how the Soul Trap works. The way I read the description, it can only double your strength once.

Just to address the "fragility" of Incubi with FNP. Here's a comparison between Blood Angel's with FNP to Incube with FNP versus the typical bolter-type attack..

Blood Angels w/FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 1/2 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 failed FNP. This results in .055 wounds per shot.

Incubi with FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 2/3 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 faild FNP. This results in .074 wounds per shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kadeton wrote:If I take an Archon, it will be with an Agoniser, Ghostplate, Clone Field and Combat Drugs. The Soul Trap/Huskblade combo is tempting, but it's just way too expensive... if I'm spending that level of points on an HQ it's going to be Sliscus.

Incidentally, I think there needs to be clarification (from GW) on how the Soul Trap works. The way I read the description, it can only double your strength once.

If I remember correctly, it specifically states that the first time it is used the S is doubled. The second time, the S is raised to 10. I'll check to make sure when I get home.

Saldiven wrote:

kadeton wrote:If I take an Archon, it will be with an Agoniser, Ghostplate, Clone Field and Combat Drugs. The Soul Trap/Huskblade combo is tempting, but it's just way too expensive... if I'm spending that level of points on an HQ it's going to be Sliscus.

Incidentally, I think there needs to be clarification (from GW) on how the Soul Trap works. The way I read the description, it can only double your strength once.

If I remember correctly, it specifically states that the first time it is used the S is doubled. The second time, the S is raised to 10. I'll check to make sure when I get home.

I'm not sure how much of the rules description I can get away with posting, but the relevant sentence for me is:

"The bearer immediately doubles his Strength for the rest of the game (to a maximum of 10)."

I can see arguments going both ways - to me, the "for the rest of the game" implies it can only happen once, but the "(to a maximum of 10)" should be unnecessary since nothing that can take one has a Strength high enough for it to matter (and stats are all capped at 10 in any case). Hence why I'd like an official ruling!

Not sure why everybody equips the Archon with a husk blade.
After all, its an S3 power weapons.
Even if you roll a 6 against a tougher model, it may have an invulnerable save.
I wouldn't count too much on it.
The best weapon for the Archon is still the agonizer. It wounds every model on 4+ independent of its toughness.

Saldiven wrote:Just to address the "fragility" of Incubi with FNP. Here's a comparison between Blood Angel's with FNP to Incube with FNP versus the typical bolter-type attack..

Blood Angels w/FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 1/2 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 failed FNP. This results in .055 wounds per shot.

Incubi with FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 2/3 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 faild FNP. This results in .074 wounds per shot.

It is true that they don't die to bolters but that really doesn't say anything. No one would even mention Incubi if they were 22 point models that had serious trouble against bolters. Blood Angels with FNP are much more numerous, cheaper and often scoring.

Incubi are still an elite unit that have to be used with HQ for maximum effectiveness so wielding several of them isn't very likely. So what you have on table is one unit of Incubi with possible Archon, they will be the target of every Battle Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun and Multi Laser the second they are in range and aren't in combat. I doubt that they'll live very long.
Being fire magnet can be useful when it draws fire from your other more important units but losing your HQ along with (relatively) expensive squad often won't be worth it.

All Incubi setups have 2 common counters: 6+ str weapons and Dreads and several hard counters (Lash Whips, Banshees) so in my opinion Incubi should be used only as Venom sized squads so they are threatening to your enemy but are cheap enough to be sacrificed.

kadeton wrote:

Saldiven wrote:

kadeton wrote:If I take an Archon, it will be with an Agoniser, Ghostplate, Clone Field and Combat Drugs. The Soul Trap/Huskblade combo is tempting, but it's just way too expensive... if I'm spending that level of points on an HQ it's going to be Sliscus.

Incidentally, I think there needs to be clarification (from GW) on how the Soul Trap works. The way I read the description, it can only double your strength once.

If I remember correctly, it specifically states that the first time it is used the S is doubled. The second time, the S is raised to 10. I'll check to make sure when I get home.

I'm not sure how much of the rules description I can get away with posting, but the relevant sentence for me is:

"The bearer immediately doubles his Strength for the rest of the game (to a maximum of 10)."

I can see arguments going both ways - to me, the "for the rest of the game" implies it can only happen once, but the "(to a maximum of 10)" should be unnecessary since nothing that can take one has a Strength high enough for it to matter (and stats are all capped at 10 in any case). Hence why I'd like an official ruling!

The rule also says "whenever the bearer kills an enemy IC or MC in CC", which for me implies it can kick in more than once.

Wouldn't a Soul Trap, Huskblade, ShadowField and COmbat Drugs be good :S?

Might as well throw a blast pistol on there. A little extra anti-tank, plus the ability to insta-kill some ICs or wounded MCs at range. The soul-trap doesn't require the archon to kill the target in melee, after all...

ah ha!
So it doesn't ^^

Thank you for that one mate XD!!!!

Interestingly, the flickerfield doesn't mention any restrictions, either, so it should protect against melee attacks as well.

Aetherse wrote:

Saldiven wrote:Just to address the "fragility" of Incubi with FNP. Here's a comparison between Blood Angel's with FNP to Incube with FNP versus the typical bolter-type attack..

Blood Angels w/FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 1/2 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 failed FNP. This results in .055 wounds per shot.

Incubi with FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 2/3 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 faild FNP. This results in .074 wounds per shot.

It is true that they don't die to bolters but that really doesn't say anything. No one would even mention Incubi if they were 22 point models that had serious trouble against bolters. Blood Angels with FNP are much more numerous, cheaper and often scoring.

Incubi are still an elite unit that have to be used with HQ for maximum effectiveness so wielding several of them isn't very likely. So what you have on table is one unit of Incubi with possible Archon, they will be the target of every Battle Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun and Multi Laser the second they are in range and aren't in combat. I doubt that they'll live very long.
Being fire magnet can be useful when it draws fire from your other more important units but losing your HQ along with (relatively) expensive squad often won't be worth it.

All Incubi setups have 2 common counters: 6+ str weapons and Dreads and several hard counters (Lash Whips, Banshees) so in my opinion Incubi should be used only as Venom sized squads so they are threatening to your enemy but are cheap enough to be sacrificed.

That's a good point.
Shooting down the paper-thin skimmers isn't an issue.
Then the Incubi will attract a lot of fire.
I'd opt for a 5 men unit in a Venom, or a 4 men squad plus an Archon in a Venom.

DAaddict wrote:Wondering what your thoughts are on the load out of an archon.

Is a Djinn blade a good deal? Two extra attacks for 1 in 6 chance that you hit yourself. Otherwise stay with the old standby Agonizer.

The Djinn blade is only slightly worst then the agonizer against marines and that is without any strength boosts, but it's attacks make it superior
when fighting against equal Toughness opponents.

The agonizer is all about taking on high toughness and so it depends on what your planning to use the archon for. Also the agonizer doen't
get as many benefits from combat drugs or from powered by pain. Also note that math-wise even the poison weapon is superior to the
agonizer against low armour values.

Finally the djinn blade has one more small advantage... it's wargear! This means you can have blaster/splinter pistol/Djinn blade, giving you
the benefit of the extra CC attack for 2 weapons and still getting the improved range of the blaster!
You could also switch the blaster for a blast pistol and take a second special CC weapon like agonizer or a simple poison weapon, if you have
the points to spare...

Aetherse wrote:

Saldiven wrote:Just to address the "fragility" of Incubi with FNP. Here's a comparison between Blood Angel's with FNP to Incube with FNP versus the typical bolter-type attack..

Blood Angels w/FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 1/2 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 failed FNP. This results in .055 wounds per shot.

Incubi with FNP getting shot by a bolter:

2/3 hit. 2/3 wound. 1/3 failed save. 1/2 faild FNP. This results in .074 wounds per shot.

It is true that they don't die to bolters but that really doesn't say anything. No one would even mention Incubi if they were 22 point models that had serious trouble against bolters. Blood Angels with FNP are much more numerous, cheaper and often scoring.

Incubi are still an elite unit that have to be used with HQ for maximum effectiveness so wielding several of them isn't very likely. So what you have on table is one unit of Incubi with possible Archon, they will be the target of every Battle Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun and Multi Laser the second they are in range and aren't in combat. I doubt that they'll live very long.
Being fire magnet can be useful when it draws fire from your other more important units but losing your HQ along with (relatively) expensive squad often won't be worth it.

All Incubi setups have 2 common counters: 6+ str weapons and Dreads and several hard counters (Lash Whips, Banshees) so in my opinion Incubi should be used only as Venom sized squads so they are threatening to your enemy but are cheap enough to be sacrificed.

My post was a response to a previous post that asserted that Incubi are "fairly fragile."

They are statistically no more fragile to the typical attack seen on the board than are BA's with FNP. In fact, the only attacks that Incubi with FNP are "more fragile" than BA's are S6 and S7 attacks. Even BA's and Plague Marines are "fragile" up against Battle Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, etc.

Also, considering the fact that the new codex has been out for purchase for less than a month, and less than two months for review at stores, I highly doubt there are any "common counters" to Incubi. Yes, there are things out there that do counter a large squad of Incubi, but these aren't things that represent a significant change in the metagame.

That being said, I agree that large Incubi squads may not be the best addition to the Archon as far as the original purpose of this thread is concerned. You risk the unit becoming "too effective." No dedicated assault unit wants to wipe out their opponent on the charge and then get shot off the board on the next turn.

Also, back on topic, I have seen several lists in the last week where the Archon is armed with a Huskblade without a Soultrap. Considering the relative cheapness of the Soultrap, I don't understand having the Huskblade without the 'Trap. The poisoned weapons and Agoniser wound on a fixed number, so there really isn't a benefit to the Soultrap. The power weapon by itself is too unreliable at S3 to expect to kill and IC or MC with it, thereby making the Soultrap unlikely to trigger. The HB, however, only needs one wound to get through to trigger the ST. If you don't take the ST, then the Huskblade is a S3 power weapon that has the interesting chance to ID enemy models if you get a wound through. The ST gives you the potential to be much more than that.

Is there really a reason to take the Huskblade if you're not also taking the Soultrap?

wuestenfux wrote:Not sure why everybody equips the Archon with a husk blade.
After all, its an S3 power weapons.
Even if you roll a 6 against a tougher model, it may have an invulnerable save.
I wouldn't count too much on it.
The best weapon for the Archon is still the agonizer. It wounds every model on 4+ independent of its toughness.

While yes it is a S3 power weapon, it is not only a S3 power weapon, it is a S3 ID power weapon. Sure when you first wade into combat with an enemy IC, you will have a tough time putting a wound on that IC, but you only need 1(unless the IC has EW, in which you shouldn't have gotten your archon into CC with him anyways); this is why the Soul-trap is so good with the archon, you wound the first IC and now your huskblade is a S6 ID Power Weapon. Now it is time to go hunting the tougher(or even EW) ICs/MCs.

Soul-trap can be used multiple times, it is in the very first line of it's rules "whenever the bearer kills an enemy IC or MC" you get to test and grow in Str.

They are statistically no more fragile to the typical attack seen on the board than are BA's with FNP. In fact, the only attacks that Incubi with FNP are "more fragile" than BA's are S6 and S7 attacks. Even BA's and Plague Marines are "fragile" up against Battle Cannon, Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, etc.

Also, considering the fact that the new codex has been out for purchase for less than a month, and less than two months for review at stores, I highly doubt there are any "common counters" to Incubi. Yes, there are things out there that do counter a large squad of Incubi, but these aren't things that represent a significant change in the metagame.

Their relative fragility comes from their low numbers and from the fact that there are no other targets to shoot with low ap weaponry. Of course I would be happy if my opponent would waste bolter shots but I doubt anyone good would fall into that. The common counters line came from the fact that Dreads and mid str weaponry are pretty common. /offtopic

I see very little use for the huskblade without soultrap too. Maybe in a list with both Archon and Sliscus it could be useful because you have over 50% chance to get either bonus str or reroll wounds drugs. It would still be gamble though.

In my opinion Haemonculus Ancient would be better character to use Huskblade. Haemi Ancient can get Shattershard which allows him to destroy destroy the first MC or IC for the Soultrap much easier. Haemi Ancient can also be expected to have FC from the start, just use him with Wracks or Grotesques.