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Me and a friend playing BT had an argument today. He was voluntarily going to ground almost every time he took fire during my shooting phase. Passing all righteous zeal tests, he would take his D6 consolidation move, and claim that gone to ground was broken, thus moving/shooting/assaulting as per normal during his turn. Now lets break this down:

Righteous zeal tests cannot be taken on units that are pinned or falling back. According to official BT FAQ, units are pinned only when failing a pinning leadership checks. Units that go to ground voluntarily are NOT pinned. He was right in taking the zeal tests.

Although not pinned, gone to ground units cannot perform any voluntary action (moving, shooting and assaulting). The unit however, takes involuntary actions (example morale check), but, RAW, the unit will only ever break "gone to ground" upon FALLING BACK. There are no hidden sentences here. No other criteria for breaking "gone to ground" other then a failed LD check and a fall back move.

100% rules as written, righteous zeal is a "consolidation" move, not a "falling back" move; the unit did not fail morale. Although the unit moves D6 toward the closest enemy, they did not meet criteria to break "gone to ground" thus cannot perform any voluntary action until the next turn. Consolidation =/= falling back in any context. what so ever.

Also, if anyone has any links for documentation on this (FAQs ect), that would really help.

TBH I am not sure, I am leaning towards "NO" however.

Hopefully a little bump from me will get you the answers you so desperately crave

The Witch Hunter FAQ has a very similar Q&A.

Q. If a Sisters Repentia unit that has ‘gone to
ground’ subsequently fails a Morale check and
has to move 2D6" (but doesn’t reach the nearest
enemy unit), does the unit return to its ‘gone to
ground’ status after finishing its move?
A. No.

I know this isn't identical but the situation is close enough.

In the case of the sisters repentia, it is still a fall back. If they fail their leadership, they fall back 2d6, but instead is directed at the nearest enemy unit vice friendly table edge. Its still a failed morale check. Its still a fall back move.

Righteous zeal is not a fall back. If they fail their morale, they fall back, if they pass, they consolidate. Its clearly written as a "consolidation move", and is not FAQed like the sisters rule, therefore does not meet the criteria for breaking gone to ground.

I'm a (or I like to think I am) seasoned BT player, and i'd completely agree that this is BS.

If you're pinned, you're pinned. The reason I say this, is because if you fail RZ tests you have to fall back. Since you can't as you're pinned, why should you be able to go forwards?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I see what you're saying about it being a consolodation move, bu I disagree. Its a "reverse fall back", only on one dice. Because if you fail, you're retreating.

liam0404 wrote:
I see what you're saying about it being a consolodation move, bu I disagree. Its a "reverse fall back", only on one dice. Because if you fail, you're retreating.

I'm not just making stuff up, I am using words directly from the codex. Pg 23 of the Black Templar codex states in the Righteous Zeal Paragraph:

".. then the unit must move toward the nearest visible enemy unit. This is identical to a consolidation move and follows all the normal rules given in the Warhammer 40 000 rulebook"

Its a consolidation move. Consolidation you can move anywhere UP to the maximum amount rolled on 1d6, where a fall back you are forced to move the full 2D6 rolled (including the sisters repentia special rule, instead toward an enemy vice table edge).

Consolidation =/= Fall back. Criteria is not met for breaking "Gone to ground", therefore the unit still is unable to perform voluntary actions.

The movement due to RZ is consolidation, not fall back.

What RZ does is twofold:
1. Instead of Morale Checks for 25% casualties, you check after 1 casualty.
2. Any time you pass a Morale Check, you consolidate w/ restrictions on direction.

It isn't a reverse fall back move. The rule states you get a consolidation move when passing Morale Checks. Just because something different happens when you fail, doesn't mean they are inverse actions. Passing a Morale Check is not a "0 inch fall back," so why should Consolidate due to passing be a "forward fall back"?

Since it's not a fall back move, it will not cancel the effects of Gone to Ground. Therefore, a BT Infantry unit that has gone to ground will take morale checks as normal (rather, as modified by the RZ rule - if 1 casualty occurs), and if they pass, they will involuntarily consolidate up to D6" in the necessary direction (as part of the RZ rule, which does not violate any of the tenets of gone to ground). After this move has completed, since no fall back move has occurred, the unit will return to its "gone to ground" status.

...which makes this tactic really bad.

Also, it seems that scubasteve has it right.

P.S. Repentia have a similar rule, but the important difference is that they're rule only occurs when they fail a Morale Check, which is most likely why the FAQ ruled the way it did. In the case of the Templars, they very clearly do not break their GtG status.

Righteous Zeal is not actually a Consolidation move, though it's very similar, despite the word "identical" in the BT codex. Nobody plays RZ identically to consolidate. By this I mean, nobody, after passing the required morale check, moves in any direction they want like it says you can with a C-move. They always move toward the closest enemy unit, as it states in the BT codex.

Why then the inconsistency? What logical reason is there to accept the ability not to move and ignore the ability to move in any direction?

There isn't one, and reality is "identical" is a misplaced word and must be thrown out. It's the only logical solution to this outdated, poorly written rule.

When you look at RZ for a consistent answer, there's only two possible positions:
1) RZ forces you to take a morale test, but if you pass you do not have to move, and if you do move, it can be in any direction.
2) RZ forces you to take a morale test, which if passed, forces you to move toward the nearest enemy unit. This move, though, does not have to be the full distance rolled.

Which one sounds more like Black Templars? Which one sounds more like the intended rule?


Now regarding GtG, the new BRB FAQ states:
Q: If a unit that has gone to ground is then forced to move, other than to fall back, do they return to normal or still count as having gone to ground? (p24) A: They will return to normal.

RZ is a forced movement caused the enemy fire, so yes, BT infantry can go to ground voluntarily and if forced to move due to RZ, will break GtG and will return to normal next turn.

People will argue here that Pinned units do not Zeal, which is correct. Gone to Ground, though, is not Pinned. Despite being very similar, and almost completely overlapping, they are different rules that function differently. One requires a failed Pinning test while one is voluntary. Just because you arrive at the same place doesn't make it the same rule. Take Fearless and ATSKNF in close combat for example. Both rules lead to No Retreat armor saves, so would you consider them the same rule? No, they function differently and are therefore separate rules. The same goes for Pinned and GtG.

A mere 8 day old thread resurrection does not a Necro-Threadancy make (hey, I used the SEARCH function, yay me!)

bigduncm24 wrote:Now regarding GtG, the new BRB FAQ states:
Q: If a unit that has gone to ground is then forced to move, other than to fall back, do they return to normal or still count as having gone to ground? (p24) A: They will return to normal.

RZ is a forced movement caused the enemy fire, so yes, BT infantry can go to ground voluntarily and if forced to move due to RZ, will break GtG and will return to normal next turn.

To clarify (that is, I'm asking):
BTs seem to have an 'inbuilt' Invuln/Cover Save with GtG, without the dirt eating for an entire turn, yes?

1. Fran drops some Oblit PlasmaCan template fun on Bob's BTs.
2. Bob decides to have the unit GotoGround. A few failed saves later and ...
3. BT morale is made and RZ kicks in, they get up and a$$hole & elbow forward a bit (consolidate)
4. Bob's turn, they get back up, closer, and just having weathered plasma fun or some such.

Do I have this correct?

Yep. The hitch is that if you don't suffer any casualties, you're stuck on the ground.

First of all, Pinned is GtG, and GtG is pinned, at least, according to the main rules FAQ:

Q: If I find a reference to a unit that is ‘pinned’, does it
mean a unit that has gone to ground? (p24)
A: Yes, ‘pinned’ is simply a short way of saying ‘gone to
ground by failing a pinning test’.

So voluntarily or involuntary really makes no difference. Either way, they're GtG.

Second point, as bigdun already posted, this is now covered in the main rules FAQ. Are they forced to move due to passing or failing tes Morale test? Yes. So a BT unit can go to ground, get a cover save, and then take a morale test, and will return to normal no matter what the Morale test result is. If tehy pass they Zeal towards the nearest enemy, breaking the GtG. Fail, and they fall back, breaking the GtG.

don_mondo wrote:First of all, Pinned is GtG, and GtG is pinned, at least, according to the main rules FAQ:

No, GTG isn't pinned. Pinned means the unit has gone to ground via a failed pinning check, just like the quote you just posted said.

A unit that is pinned has GTG. A unit that has GTG is not necessarily pinned.

The new 40k FAQ came out after I posted this. Its clear that BT will break g2g after a zeal move or failing their morale (which is slowed imo)

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

don_mondo wrote:First of all, Pinned is GtG, and GtG is pinned, at least, according to the main rules FAQ:

No, GTG isn't pinned. Pinned means the unit has gone to ground via a failed pinning check, just like the quote you just posted said.

A unit that is pinned has GTG. A unit that has GTG is not necessarily pinned.

And yet, they are treaqted exactly the same once pinned or GtG......................... So for all intents and purposes, they are indeed the same thing. Hence my previoous statement.

don_mondo wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

don_mondo wrote:First of all, Pinned is GtG, and GtG is pinned, at least, according to the main rules FAQ:

No, GTG isn't pinned. Pinned means the unit has gone to ground via a failed pinning check, just like the quote you just posted said.

A unit that is pinned has GTG. A unit that has GTG is not necessarily pinned.

And yet, they are treaqted exactly the same once pinned or GtG......................... So for all intents and purposes, they are indeed the same thing. Hence my previoous statement.

If you check the official Black Templar FAQ, it says:

"A pinned unit is a unit that has failed their morale check and gone to ground."

Electing to go to ground is not pinned.

scubasteve04 wrote:The new 40k FAQ came out after I posted this. Its clear that BT will break g2g after a zeal move or failing their morale (which is slowed imo)

Will they change this when they update the BT codex someday? I'm sure. But I don't think its really that bad. Marine already have a 3+ armor save so going to ground only helps improve cover saves. If anyone is having issues with a buddy running a BT army, then just start loading up on more multi-shot weapons and kill them with sheer rate of fire...that's really the best way to proceed in 5th edition anyway.

And the 'tactic' of always going to ground with a BT unit quickly fails the one time you manage to pass all your saves. Now your opponent gets to just ignore that unit and focus on other targets with the rest of their shooting. And even if the BT player always makes sure that the unit has suffered at least one wound from a different unit *before* deciding to go to ground against further shooting they're still dealing with the fact that they have to take morale checks a lot more often than other Marine armies and every now and then they're going to fail one of those at an inopportune time and have to fall back.

Scuba - and yet pinning is gone to ground BY failing a morale check.

It is the same result either way. One is a voluntary GtG, one isnt.

yakface wrote: If anyone is having issues with a buddy running a BT army, then just start loading up on more multi-shot weapons and kill them with sheer rate of fire...that's really the best way to proceed in 5th edition anyway.

And *this* is why I preach that FireStorm (BC/MP) Crisis Suits are better than FireKnives (PR/MP)! Volume fire over plasma.

Or do I automatically discredit myself for still playing tau?
-------
Guys, thanks for the clarification on BTs.

Scuba is right.

Pinned and Gone to Ground are not the same thing. They are very similar rules, but function differently.

Possibly the only time in the entire scope of the game that the distinction is important is for Righteous Zeal and Gone to Ground.

Bigdun - except that is not what the FAQ says.

They are both GtG; one is voluntary, one is through failing a pinning check. The end result is the same (GtG) even if the method BY which you get there is different.

Nos is right, if you wanna read it and stop arguing http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490286a_FAQ_40Krulebook_version1_1.pdf

bigduncm24 wrote:Scuba is right.

Pinned and Gone to Ground are not the same thing. They are very similar rules, but function differently.

Possibly the only time in the entire scope of the game that the distinction is important is for Righteous Zeal and Gone to Ground.

Yopu're going to have to explain to me how the "functioin differently". Once the unit is GtG, whether voluntary or otherwise, they are treaterd exactly the same.

don_mondo wrote:

bigduncm24 wrote:Scuba is right.

Pinned and Gone to Ground are not the same thing. They are very similar rules, but function differently.

Possibly the only time in the entire scope of the game that the distinction is important is for Righteous Zeal and Gone to Ground.

Yopu're going to have to explain to me how the "functioin differently". Once the unit is GtG, whether voluntary or otherwise, they are treaterd exactly the same.

Its in the Black Templar official FAQ on the games workshop website. I would show you a link but my work blocks it.

It says a unit is Pinned after failing a pinning morale check and going to ground.

A unit that takes a pinning check and fails is now pinned and subsequently gone to ground. A unit that elects to go to ground is not pinned.

Both cases they are gone to ground, and cannot perform voluntary actions and recieve the 1+ cover save.

But voluntarily going to ground is not pinned, and therefore can take righteous zeal tests as per normal. If a BT unit is hit with snipers and fails their pinning check, they cannot take righteous zeal tests (because they are "pinned")


Pinned = Gone to ground
Gone to ground does not necessarily mean pinned.

No.

Where does it say that righteous zeal counters the effects of going to ground?

They can make a free consolidation move, but they're still under the effects of having gone to ground. The ONLY thing that can break this is if you get caught in close combat (or there's a handy imperial guard officer nearby who can get them back in the fight).

Ailaros wrote:No.

Where does it say that righteous zeal counters the effects of going to ground?

They can make a free consolidation move, but they're still under the effects of having gone to ground. The ONLY thing that can break this is if you get caught in close combat (or there's a handy imperial guard officer nearby who can get them back in the fight).

Its in the new 40k Rulebook official FAQ that was just recently released.

I cannot open the page cause my work blocks it, but it says something along the lines that any unit that has gone to ground and has been forced to move breaks gone to ground. Its pretty clear

I have to.agree with Ailaros on this. RAW it can be interpreted that they break GTG, but I think that's against the spirit of the rue. YMMV

liam0404 wrote:I have to.agree with Ailaros on this. RAW it can be interpreted that they break GTG, but I think that's against the spirit of the rue. YMMV

When I posted this thread, RAW the only way a g2g unit could break g2g was being assaulted, falling back, or destroyed.

The new 40k rulebook FAQ came out and says that if a g2g unit has to move for any reason then it breaks g2g

It's a FAQ, not a rule.

Furthermore, the only time that this will matter is when you're shooting something that's in cover that's close enough to charge you. Why are you getting into this position in the first place?

Most of the time, going to ground would just give you a 6+ cover save, but don't they already get a 6++ invul save?

Ailaros wrote:It's a FAQ, not a rule.

Furthermore, the only time that this will matter is when you're shooting something that's in cover that's close enough to charge you. Why are you getting into this position in the first place?

Most of the time, going to ground would just give you a 6+ cover save, but don't they already get a 6++ invul save?

They dont have to be in charge range to benifit from the 1+ cover. They still go to ground, get the bonus, then break g2g and continue to move and shoot normally. Getting all the benifit of going to ground without the negative effects.

Only if you take a (rather bad) vow before the game.