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Could someone please answer a question for me. Eldar can have Dire Avengers or Gardians as troops choice, why would anyone take gardians when they could have Dire Avengers. Im a real noob at eldar so im probably missing somthing.

The reason for guardians is the platform. DAs stand up better and for the points, kill troops better. If you need so S6 or better weapons, guardians do okay.

Guardians, if setup properly with a guide and doom can perform good defensive fire at short range. It is just in 5th ed, the mechanized eldar is king so DAs in serpents is the "power" build right now and on foot eldar has a few problems.

Eldar have 5 troop choices, each one is supposed to have a use.

Storm Guardians are currently a very viable choice. Having 3 flamers makes them a very killy unit. They outperform DA against units in cover.

Defender Guardians are intended to be a decent shooty unit whose main advantage is their heavy weapon platform. Unfortunately, they're totally overcosted and GW made the heavy weapons cost a LOT more in the newest codex, making them pretty worthless. There's also much more effective ways to get heavy weapons for Eldar than to run these guys.

Defender Guardians can still work if you run a foot-slogging list that has an Avatar to make them fearless. But, for the most part, no one takes Defender Guardians.

Like Grakmar said, weapon platform (and the Heavy becomes Assault for the HW)... But there's also the points, 8 for Guardians, 12 for DA... Yes, iindividually they are not as good, but if you're sitting in terrain on an objective taking HW pot shots I guess it would work...

it also depends on what guardians your wanting...storm guardians are more geared for close combat and have weapon options to support that roll, as they can get flamers. back that up with a destructor warlock and your good to go. as for guardian defenders...its already been stated but they are more just for the weapon platform.

and as already stated again...they are cheaper. but depending on how you set up the squad, i find that the cost of a unit of avengers is a small difference...for example. a unit of guardians with a bright lance is 110 while 10 avengers hits 120. with that being the case most will find a way to find that extra 10pts to get the avengers

now choosing them for a troop selection is usually for fluff reasons or cramming in that extra weapon(s)

Eldar have troops choices?

lliadon wrote:storm guardians are more geared for close combat

They look like they're geared for CC. But, with 3s across the stat-line and a 5+ armor, even with a bonus attack, they're absolute garbage in CC. Don't fall into the trap that Storm Guardians are a CC squad. They are simply a means for getting 3 flame templates, nothing more.

i agree grak, as i prefer harlies and others for cc...but they need the flamers and destructor do really do anything. as i use them for the flamers only, but 3 templates really hurts what im shooting at...and find that they are better suited to deal with hordes as opposed to defenders. and they are just like every other unit in the codex as in they need support to really do anything worthwhile

If you're looking for a heavy weapon/objective camper, go with guardians.

If you want an effective short-range crowd-control unit, best stick with Dire Avengers.

MekanobSamael wrote:If you're looking for a heavy weapon/objective camper, go with guardians.

If you want an effective short-range crowd-control unit, best stick with Dire Avengers.

Agreed.

I run both in my footslogging lists. The guardians hang back with EML and embolden warlock in cover taking potshots all game.

The DA push forward putting their better ranged shuricats to good use.

Fafnir wrote:Eldar have troops choices?

Yes, there are several options.

A full unit of Wraithguard is a viable option in a Iyanden army.

In a mech Eldar army, I'd opt for full units of Dire Avengers (with bladestrom) and/or Storm Guardians (with flamers, incl. Warlock with destructor )in Serpents.

In a foot slogging army, I'd take Guardian Defenders with eml's or scatterlasers.

Finally, in a Saim Hann army, I'd opt for GJBs, 6 GJBs with 2 shuricannons.

Nobody is standing up for rangers/pathfinders?

Pathfinders especially essentially invulnerable to ranged firepower when in cover, and no more vulnerable to flamers/assault than guardians are (which is to say, flamers/assault will crumble either unit).

Expensive, but it's surprising how 6-8 rending/pinning shots can really mess up small/tough/elite units in the open. Those tiny units of ML longfangs are my favorite target personally.

Well, I forgot Pathfinders/Rangers.
They are useful in any kind of Eldar army.
For instance, they could be used to keep enemy infiltrators away from the own front ranks.
However, there are more and more template weapons that ignore cover.

Guardians are also a way to get a spiritseer to babysit Wraithlords.

Guardian Defenders can sit back and take potshots with a Missle Launcher, just watch out for BS3, it fails you more often than not.

Storm Squad look like they are for CC but they really aren't, unless you fight Firewarriors. Best they do is bring flamers to the party like everyone else.

Dire Avengers are alright... expensive for what they do but they do it well. If you're going to shoot them at Marines make sure you doom the target or even with 31 shots you won't kill that many.

Rangers/Pathfinders are far too expensive nowadays. Don't be fooled into thinking you only need 5 with a 2+ cover, you WILL roll enough ones to make them break, and 5 guys isn't enough to put out enough shots, but 10 is too much (240 points? No thanks). Plus if any flamers get close they melt. You might be able to get them out of the way, but then they aren't doing much.

Jetbikes are fine, harder to get cover saves with because of true LoS and they suck in CC, but they make good tank killers with Shuriken Cannons and a Warlock with a Singing Spear. Again though the BS3 really hurts them.

People say that the current power is Troops in transports... that's only half true, it's the current power because it's the only thing that works. Eldar troops are too squishy to have running around. The transports give them the endurance they need to get to objectives, or even hold objectives.

People say that the current power is Troops in transports... that's only half true, it's the current power because it's the only thing that works. Eldar troops are too squishy to have running around. The transports give them the endurance they need to get to objectives, or even hold objectives.

The exception being 10 Wraithguard (in an Iyanden-based army).

wuestenfux wrote:
The exception being 10 Wraithguard (in an Iyanden-based army).

While it fits the theme perfectly, that's a hell of a lot of points to spend on one troops choice that has short range guns and aren't too good in close combat.

Still, they would be an effective meat shield. Giving cover saves to the Wraithlord(s) behind them and hopefully absorbing shots with Conceal allowing other units to do whatever they need to unmolested.

zonino wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
The exception being 10 Wraithguard (in an Iyanden-based army).

While it fits the theme perfectly, that's a hell of a lot of points to spend on one troops choice that has short range guns and aren't too good in close combat.

Still, they would be an effective meat shield. Giving cover saves to the Wraithlord(s) behind them and hopefully absorbing shots with Conceal allowing other units to do whatever they need to unmolested.

Wraithlords won't get cover from Wraithguard. They're way too small to cover up 50% of that guy.

I have 10 wraithguard ... I have never end a game without them still being alive. T6 + a rerollable save take a damn lot of shooting to kill. BS4 bolters; 1 out of 81 shots will kill one so 891 shots to kill every one.

Also I normally roll with 3 prisms; that tends to keep the anti tank off them.

Grakmar wrote:

zonino wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
The exception being 10 Wraithguard (in an Iyanden-based army).

While it fits the theme perfectly, that's a hell of a lot of points to spend on one troops choice that has short range guns and aren't too good in close combat.

Still, they would be an effective meat shield. Giving cover saves to the Wraithlord(s) behind them and hopefully absorbing shots with Conceal allowing other units to do whatever they need to unmolested.

Wraithlords won't get cover from Wraithguard. They're way too small to cover up 50% of that guy.[/quotel

Sadly, this is true.
Nevertheles, the enemy will have make some decision, either to keep this unit at arm's length or to charge it.
In the latter, it may face WLs, an Avatar, and some Harlies.

Tri wrote:I have 10 wraithguard ... I have never end a game without them still being alive. T6 + a rerollable save take a damn lot of shooting to kill. BS4 bolters; 1 out of 81 shots will kill one so 891 shots to kill every one.

Also I normally roll with 3 prisms; that tends to keep the anti tank off them.

The question is though: How much do they actually do? Do they make back the points?

zonino wrote:

Tri wrote:I have 10 wraithguard ... I have never end a game without them still being alive. T6 + a rerollable save take a damn lot of shooting to kill. BS4 bolters; 1 out of 81 shots will kill one so 891 shots to kill every one.

Also I normally roll with 3 prisms; that tends to keep the anti tank off them.

The question is though: How much do they actually do? Do they make back the points?

Well, if they cap an objective, they do.

Grakmar wrote:

zonino wrote:

Tri wrote:I have 10 wraithguard ... I have never end a game without them still being alive. T6 + a rerollable save take a damn lot of shooting to kill. BS4 bolters; 1 out of 81 shots will kill one so 891 shots to kill every one.

Also I normally roll with 3 prisms; that tends to keep the anti tank off them.

The question is though: How much do they actually do? Do they make back the points?

Well, if they cap an objective, they do.

Uses ... (note these are the most expensive versions i run)
A) Add Eldrad, a farseer (with stone, guide doom) and give the warlock embolden ... then spam guide on any of my units that need it. (note though embolden might seem a waste on a Fearless unit it does also work on psychic powers)
B) Add Maugan Ra and give the warlock conceal ... then walk them across the board.
C) Add Krandrass and give the warlock conceal ... then walk them across the board with a 4+ cover save (Stealth adds +1 to the units cover save ^_^ not just the model that has it)

Basically If the enemy tries in any way to hurt this unit then I'm happy as they're not shooting at something more important; of course if they don't I've been know to murder IC and MC that get too close (Hive Tyrant and their guard don't like to be shot with weapons that can cause instant death)

wuestenfux wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Eldar have troops choices?

Yes, there are several options.

A full unit of Wraithguard is a viable option in a Iyanden army.

In a mech Eldar army, I'd opt for full units of Dire Avengers (with bladestrom) and/or Storm Guardians (with flamers, incl. Warlock with destructor )in Serpents.

In a foot slogging army, I'd take Guardian Defenders with eml's or scatterlasers.

Finally, in a Saim Hann army, I'd opt for GJBs, 6 GJBs with 2 shuricannons.

Wow, someone missed the joke completely.

zonino wrote:Guardian Defenders can sit back and take potshots with a Missle Launcher, just watch out for BS3, it fails you more often than not.

How can this be when a BS3 gives you a straight 50/50 shot to hit?

To the OP, I prefer Guardians with my footslogging eldar list. I usually throw in 1 unit of Dire Avengers also, but I've got to have my Guardians. The Guardian is situational to your build. You must have an Avatar to make them fearless and you must have a Farseer (preferably Eldrad) to enhance them when needed. Doom and Guide can make even the lowly Guardian squad a nightmare for a Bloodthirster.

Grakmar wrote:

zonino wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
The exception being 10 Wraithguard (in an Iyanden-based army).

While it fits the theme perfectly, that's a hell of a lot of points to spend on one troops choice that has short range guns and aren't too good in close combat.

Still, they would be an effective meat shield. Giving cover saves to the Wraithlord(s) behind them and hopefully absorbing shots with Conceal allowing other units to do whatever they need to unmolested.

Wraithlords won't get cover from Wraithguard. They're way too small to cover up 50% of that guy.

The new models DO cover 50% of the WraithLord, cover does apply.

Fafnir wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Eldar have troops choices?

Yes, there are several options.

A full unit of Wraithguard is a viable option in a Iyanden army.

In a mech Eldar army, I'd opt for full units of Dire Avengers (with bladestrom) and/or Storm Guardians (with flamers, incl. Warlock with destructor )in Serpents.

In a foot slogging army, I'd take Guardian Defenders with eml's or scatterlasers.

Finally, in a Saim Hann army, I'd opt for GJBs, 6 GJBs with 2 shuricannons.

Wow, someone missed the joke completely.

I guess that I missed it.
But Eldar has troop choices, sad enough.

phyrephly wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

zonino wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:
The exception being 10 Wraithguard (in an Iyanden-based army).

While it fits the theme perfectly, that's a hell of a lot of points to spend on one troops choice that has short range guns and aren't too good in close combat.

Still, they would be an effective meat shield. Giving cover saves to the Wraithlord(s) behind them and hopefully absorbing shots with Conceal allowing other units to do whatever they need to unmolested.

Wraithlords won't get cover from Wraithguard. They're way too small to cover up 50% of that guy.

The new models DO cover 50% of the WraithLord, cover does apply.

I've never had cover for my wraithlords from wraithguard.

I think you'd have a hard time convincing your opponent in any comp of this rule.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Nobody is standing up for rangers/pathfinders?

Pathfinders especially essentially invulnerable to ranged firepower when in cover, and no more vulnerable to flamers/assault than guardians are (which is to say, flamers/assault will crumble either unit).

Expensive, but it's surprising how 6-8 rending/pinning shots can really mess up small/tough/elite units in the open. Those tiny units of ML longfangs are my favorite target personally.

The problem with pathfinders is not that they're easy to kill. The problem with pathfinders is that 1/3 of a wound per turn, cover saves not considered, isn't worth 24 points, on anything. Even big monstrous creatures would have to be exceedingly unlucky to die to these guys in less than three turns, unless you're going to spend the whole 240 points (i.e. almost two fire prisms) on ten of them. Their vulnerability to assault also makes them pretty inefficient objective holders, and they're not packing any anti-tank worth discussing. That's why nobody stands up for pathfinders.

zonino wrote:...People say that the current power is Troops in transports... that's only half true, it's the current power because it's the only thing that works. Eldar troops are too squishy...

Exactly.

I thought the 'Eldar have troops'? Joke was pretty funny. I saw some get out of a transport once! LOL.

Do Eldar have troops?

Yes they do, they are the obligatory 5 Pansies that must be purchased to bring a Waveserpent.

All Eldar troops are terrible.

Rangers: so incredibly vulnerable: in HtH and vs flamers as to be worthless, helpless vs tanks, worthless vs mech armies
Gaurdians: Worst troops in the game, bad armor, short range guns, bad BS, poor morale, terrible in melee, low Str, low T, helpless vs tanks, not cheap, no special weapons upgrades, junk
Wraithguard: So slow and short ranged these are easy to avoid completely or kill in melee, can't even be transported as a 10 man squad, for essentially no reason, way too expensive, short ranged, terrible in melee, no character, and 'stupid' in the wrong circumstance?, furthermore ridiculously expensive to own too.
Jetbikes: No antitank power, no heavy weapon, no special weapon, terrible in melee, expensive, short range, running and hiding all these are good for
Dire Avengers: All the same problems as Guardians, just a little less bad, but still bad, minus the heavy weapons, for more points, brilliant

Eldar troops are like Tau troops the only use for them is:

Hiding in capable transports.

...why would anyone take gardians when they could have Dire Avengers.

You wouldn't. Funny thing here if all you want is Waveserpents, you can buy 5 Avengers for less, you have to have 10 Guardians, even though they are cheaper per, the best path to maximize things in the Eldar army that are capable is to take minimum squads of avengers in waveserpents as the guardians are to expensive.