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Hey whats up guys. New user on the forum here but a long time 40k veteran, anyway down to business. I recently started to work on my IG army which right now is very small. Its going to be purely Death Korps of Krieg, however I want it to be Heavily Infantry based. I play fairly small games (usually 1500 points or less and almost always annihilation) against Nurgle CSM, Orks, and Tyranids. Anyway here is a rough list to start with, its open for CC but I stand by my Grenade Launchers. You cannot sway me away from them.

**I will no doubt be getting myself some tanks eventually, but I haven't yet decided on which ones. Let me know which ones are your favorites to use, or your most dreaded to play against. Based on looks alone (something I base alot of my 40k decisions on) I'm feelin the Manticore Rocket Launcher.



HQ

Company Command Squad. 145
-Vox Caster.
-Chimera Transport.
-Extra Armor.
-2x Body Guard

ELITE


Storm Trooper Squad. 150
-1x Sergeant, 4x Troopers.
-Chimera Transport.
-1x Melta.
-Reconnaissance.

Storm Trooper Squad. 150
-1x Sergeant, 4x Troopers.
-Chimera Transport.
-1x Melta.
-Reconnaissance.

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon A. 425
-Platoon Command Squad. Vox Caster, 3x Grenade Launcher.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter Team.
-Infantry Squad 2. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter Team.
-Infantry Squad 3. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter Team.
-Heavy Weapons Squad 1. 3x Lascannon.
-Heavy Weapons Squad 2. 3x Lascannon.

Infantry Platoon B. 425
-Platoon Command Squad. Vox Caster, 3x Grenade Launcher.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter Team.
-Infantry Squad 2. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter Team.
-Infantry Squad 3. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Heavy Bolter Team.
-Heavy Weapons Squad 1. 3x Lascannon.
-Heavy Weapons Squad 2. 3x Lascannon.


FAST ATTACK

Armored-Sentinel Squadron. 150
-2x Armored-Sentinel
-2x Plasma Cannon.

Rough Rider Squad. 55
-1x Sergeant, 4x Riders.

So yeah, tell me what you like, what you disprove of, and what you suggest. Be warned though, I often defend my initial choices, I don't take advice off a whim. Usually I like to really understand the logic behind it.
Cheers.

Confused about the CCS. Its in a chimera with a vox, has no assault weapons or CC weapons and yet bring along 2 bodyguards. I think the storms need to maximize their special weapons to be more effective. 1 melta will not do much to tanks imo. Without commissars, your platoon guys might run a lot faster than you would want. HB also arent the best choice for HW, rather have autos. If you are running sents its probably a good idea to split them. Not a fan of PC but I've heard some success stories of them taking down termies. RR seems useless without any other weapons or numbers. Wont look good if they run into a walker

kenshin620 wrote:Confused about the CCS. Its in a chimera with a vox, has no assault weapons or CC weapons and yet bring along 2 bodyguards.

Well being purely infantry based I'm going to be relying on my orders to get me some decent results. Lets face it, the Platoon Command Squads aren't going to be able to run the show. The idea for my CCS is to just survive, and to be a low priority target. They need to fly under the radar.

kenshin620 wrote:I think the storms need to maximize their special weapons to be more effective. 1 melta will not do much to tanks imo.

Alright, I could maybe cut down something to gives these guys the extra boost of fire power. What do you suggest.

kenshin620 wrote:Without commissars, your platoon guys might run a lot faster than you would want.

I'm down with commissars, their rules are a bit hazy to me though. Summary Execution can be used for just the Platoon Command Squad, or any units that are part of that Platoon?

kenshin620 wrote:HB also arent the best choice for HW, rather have autos.

I'm not so sure I agree with that. Autos are slightly better against things T5 and up, but HB are slightly better against things T4 and below. Yes the Autos do have a better chance of hurting Vehicles, but I'm not entirely sure I have to worry about that with 12 Lascannons.
It's debatable.

kenshin620 wrote:If you are running sents its probably a good idea to split them.

I cant argue with that.

kenshin620 wrote: Not a fan of PC but I've heard some success stories of them taking down termies.

They are mainly for my Nurgle friend. They can wreck his Plauge Marines.

kenshin620 wrote:RR seems useless without any other weapons or numbers. Wont look good if they run into a walker

Again they are for my friends Plauge Marines. The hunting lances are just too valuable against his traditionally small Plauge Marine squads. I only have to kill 2 to get my points back, and on average I should kill 2.75 on the charge.



All in all, my sentinels are the weakest link in my mind for playing around with points. I don't mind boosting one Storm Trooper squad and deleting the other. The Commissars are almost definitely something I will put in my PCS's but I'll wait for some more advice before I redo my 1500 point list.
-Cheers

Looks like a really solid list. 12 lascannons.... *shudder* I agree with using autocannons because they can more easily wound tryannid MCs and higher toughness plague marines. Perhaps go with a mix, half HBs and half LCs? As for tanks in future lists I love Lemen Russes when they are on my side in my group of friend's semi-annual apoc game and hate them when I play against them. S8 ap3 large blast ordinance is not fun for anything, especially a blob of BT initiates keep up the work man.

P.S. could you put some photos of your DKK army in the gallery? I would love to see the finished product.

The-Betrayer wrote:Looks like a really solid list. 12 lascannons.... *shudder* I agree with using autocannons because they can more easily wound tryannid MCs and higher toughness plague marines. Perhaps go with a mix, half HBs and half LCs? As for tanks in future lists I love Lemen Russes when they are on my side in my group of friend's semi-annual apoc game and hate them when I play against them. S8 ap3 large blast ordinance is not fun for anything, especially a blob of BT initiates keep up the work man.

P.S. could you put some photos of your DKK army in the gallery? I would love to see the finished product.

Thanks. I'll have to do the math a bit for the Autocannons vs Heavy Bolters. A mix can be good but that's just not my style, I like to stack the same weapon. Leman Russ is definitely the notoriously effective IG tank. I haven't used or played against IG since their new codex so I thought it might have been de-throned by one of the new ones. I hear ya with the blob of BT's though. I'm a BT player myself, the first army I started playing with.

I took some quick pictures of my DKK and uploaded them all, I only have one lamp right now so they are a bit dark. Its a small force, but I got some more on the way. They should be a playable force in a few months. http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/gallery-search.jsp?u=36474

I'm not sure you were understanding what to do with the commissars... you don't put them in the pcs, you put them in one of the squads you put in a blob to make them stubborn and when you fail a morale test, the model in the unit with the highest Ld besides a commissar is executed and you take a reroll. I just wanted to make sure you were doin it right so you dont get called on it.

Anyways, yeah, the RR are mainly a waste because their delivery system is Sv5+ and that makes them pretty much a wasted points.

I have never been a fan of sentinels. Everything they were really designed to do is filled by a vendetta ten fold because of the elevated model and whatnot.

Armored sentinels just become way too many points. If you are looking for plasmacannons just bring the executioner.

Rule of thumb: look at what your units are attempting to do and see what other units could possibly do better.

Nenya97 wrote:I'm not sure you were understanding what to do with the commissars... you don't put them in the pcs, you put them in one of the squads you put in a blob to make them stubborn and when you fail a morale test, the model in the unit with the highest Ld besides a commissar is executed and you take a reroll. I just wanted to make sure you were doin it right so you dont get called on it.

You're exactly right, as I said I'm hazy on their rules. However you bring me to another question about them. They seem to be an upgrade for the Platoon Command Squad, they do not follow the Independent Character special rules so I don't see how they can leave their unit to join another. Or can the Guardsmen special rules Combined Squad allow my PCS to join other squads in its platoon, I was under the impression it was just for the Infantry squads. Or are you talking about Lord Commissars, in which case that's a much larger investment in points. To be honest his base cost would par my 10man infantry squad setup. I'll need someone to elaborate on this for me.

Nenya97 wrote:Anyways, yeah, the RR are mainly a waste because their delivery system is Sv5+ and that makes them pretty much a wasted points.

Again, they are to counter my friends Plauge Marines. They are somewhat of a final sweep to wipe out one of his traditionally small squads. They can also be used to intercept incoming CC units of small size, or even single models to buy me some time.
Regardless of them being worth it or not I will be buying them because my army is Death Korps of Krieg and the models are just too badass.

Nenya97 wrote:I have never been a fan of sentinels. Everything they were really designed to do is filled by a vendetta ten fold because of the elevated model and whatnot. Armored sentinels just become way too many points. If you are looking for plasmacannons just bring the executioner.

Like I said I play very small games. Games as small as 750 points even, usually on a city landscape. Besides I've always believed in the notion that 1 strong vehicle can be brought down with 1 good shot, however it takes at least 3 shots to take down 3. The reason why I stack the same weapons in my squads, and why I would find 3 sentinels sometimes a better choice then 1 Tank is because this is a game of probability and probability in larger numbers is much more reliable.

Nenya97 wrote:Rule of thumb: look at what your units are attempting to do and see what other units could possibly do better.

Yes, this is the sole purpose of my thread.

why not use FW rules? same, slightly more expensive in points, but extra rules? And you get Supers standard!
and Engineers (basically veterans w/ carapace armour and shotguns but cheaper)! And the best unit evah (pointswise)- the hades breaching drill!

LordofSteel wrote:

Nenya97 wrote:I'm not sure you were understanding what to do with the commissars... you don't put them in the pcs, you put them in one of the squads you put in a blob to make them stubborn and when you fail a morale test, the model in the unit with the highest Ld besides a commissar is executed and you take a reroll. I just wanted to make sure you were doin it right so you dont get called on it.

You're exactly right, as I said I'm hazy on their rules. However you bring me to another question about them. They seem to be an upgrade for the Platoon Command Squad, they do not follow the Independent Character special rules so I don't see how they can leave their unit to join another. Or can the Guardsmen special rules Combined Squad allow my PCS to join other squads in its platoon, I was under the impression it was just for the Infantry squads. Or are you talking about Lord Commissars, in which case that's a much larger investment in points. To be honest his base cost would par my 10man infantry squad setup. I'll need someone to elaborate on this for me.

[

Commissars are also available to infantry squads

1 commissar in a combined unit of 3 infantry squads can make a dead hard unit that probably wont flee for a while

shrike wrote:why not use FW rules? same, slightly more expensive in points, but extra rules? And you get Supers standard!
and Engineers (basically veterans w/ carapace armour and shotguns but cheaper)! And the best unit evah (pointswise)- the hades breaching drill!

Because the IG codex just got re-done, and the play style with the orders is what really sold me on choosing them as my next army. Besides I might end up using this army in tournaments.
I wouldn't feel satisfied winning a game with a somewhat illegitimate rules for my army.

kenshin620 wrote:Commissars are also available to infantry squads

1 commissar in a combined unit of 3 infantry squads can make a dead hard unit that probably wont flee for a while

Ahhh, there is the clarification I was looking for. This is good, I'd like to know my codex inside out before I field a force and start playing since I've got the time. I better order a couple of Commissar models from FW.

CCS will be targeted regardless, people get tired of "Bring it down" very quickly. Some weapon upgrades might be nice, since this squad is BS4.

Stormies should roll with two melta guns. It's a requirement.

Blob-ing at least one squad is a pretty good idea. Blobs benefit from power weapons, melta guns, and Commissars. Heavy weapons are boat anchors for blobs, they will make you want to sit and shoot when you need to move.

I think I would prefer the lascannons to be in the Infantry squads and autocannons in heavy-weapons squads. HWS have poorer leadership, expensive guns just mean more points are lost. Infantry squads are more durable. Plus then the lascannons can target independently.

With that many HWS, a Lord Commissar is worth considering. He can boost their leadership. He can also take a camo-cloak and join one of the squads, giving it stealth.

If the platoon command squads aren't going to ride in Chimeras, then why not give them a heavy weapon as well?

Plasma guns are much better at killing Nurgle Marines than Grenade launchers. Autocannons are better than heavy bolters at just about everything.

If you play exclusively Annihilation, you won't suffer from the main weakness this army has. You won't get to decide what mission to play if you play in tournaments. This army will struggle in any objective mission.

As far as tanks, a list with few vehicles probably should use 'Russ chassis. If there's no Chimera wall to hide behind, the Chimera platform vehicles won't likely survive.

Hey mate i really like your list, so sexy with all the GLs : D

I'll try and help with a few things, most already mentioned probably.

You should fill the storm squad special weapons, especially when they're melta config. With 1 melta, you're paying 150pts for 1 shot against a vehicle when you could pay 160 for 2. That's a 100% increase in firepower.

You can choose the storm troopers' missions for each battle (I think?).

You could save some points on a few of the voxes since blobbed squads share them (correct me if I'm wrong), and that's when they'll matter most.

I would say the bodyguards are uncalled for. Your commander can't die from a chimera explosion and as you say probably won't be a very high priority target. And they're 30pts, enough for any one of the more useful advisors, or if you get a valkyrie, it's enough to give it pods (or cannons if you feel you need more).

While the rough riders are cool and all, if you've followed through this far, cutting them can give you enough points for that valkyrie. Consider the mobility it provides - you can fill it with any of those useless line squads and suddenly threaten most any objective.

I know someone said this but I'll repeat because I agree: a Lord Commissar is pretty cheap and could really help with orders on all those heavy teams, or doing the stealth thing. Especially when you're blobbing.

-Edit: some stupid stuff

pzbw7z wrote:CCS will be targeted regardless, people get tired of "Bring it down" very quickly. Some weapon upgrades might be nice, since this squad is BS4.

I don't doubt people will want it dead, but I have no interest in using them like storm troopers. It is easy to see my list is going to be played as a Gun-line, well my CCS are the guys behind the Gun-line. It might be hard for some people to understand my strategies, but the terrain I play on is quite dense, if you've ever played cities of death this is a good way of understanding my play style. Basically its much easier to be selective about what my CCS can see, and what can see it. I've got no plans for my HQ's doing the dirty work, they don't lead my men into battle like a heroic ultramarine. Inexpensive with a single purpose, I don't want to invest alot of points into my CCS at all. To be honest the only reason I chose to upgrade it with 2 Body Guards is because of the DKK CCS models and the possible excess infantry I will have from adding HW teams into my infantry squads.

pzbw7z wrote: Stormies should roll with two melta guns. It's a requirement.

Sounds good to me, something that will for sure be in my next list.

pzbw7z wrote:Blob-ing at least one squad is a pretty good idea. Blobs benefit from power weapons, melta guns, and Commissars. Heavy weapons are boat anchors for blobs, they will make you want to sit and shoot when you need to move.
I think I would prefer the lascannons to be in the Infantry squads and autocannons in heavy-weapons squads. HWS have poorer leadership, expensive guns just mean more points are lost. Infantry squads are more durable. Plus then the lascannons can target independently.

Just to clear something up, a Lascannon team in an infantry squad that can shoot independently ? It might be my own incompetence but that sounds really false. I would like some specificity on this rule before I remake my list. It would change a lot for my gun-line build.

pzbw7z wrote:With that many HWS, a Lord Commissar is worth considering. He can boost their leadership. He can also take a camo-cloak and join one of the squads, giving it stealth.

I'll look into that, but the last statement might completely change my entire list.

pzbw7z wrote:If the platoon command squads aren't going to ride in Chimeras, then why not give them a heavy weapon as well?

That's not a bad idea, I might do that aswell.

pzbw7z wrote:Plasma guns are much better at killing Nurgle Marines than Grenade launchers. Autocannons are better than heavy bolters at just about everything.

I disagree here. I think Plasma guns are a waste of points on a BS3 model. The Grenade launcher is the obvious choice for me because of its versatility. Against Ork boyz or Guants the amount of frag shots I could dish out by stacking Grenade launchers should be alot of fun. And with the krak shot it can give my squads an easier time wounding higher toughness models. Alot of people have given me a hard time about my Grenade Launcher choice, but I like them too much and I said before they are non negotiable sorry. As for Autocannons vs Heavy Bolters, they aren't better at just about everything at all. Generally my infantry squads are anti infantry, Heavy Bolters are slightly better at mowing down troops with toughness 4 or lower. Here's the math,

VS Toughness 4:
3x HB - 9 shots - Average of 4.5 hits - Average of 3 wounds.
3x Autos - 6 shots - Average of 3 hits - Average of 2.5 wounds.

VS Toughness 3:
3x HB - 9 shots - Average of 4.5 hits - Average of 3.75 wounds
3x Autos - 6 shots - Average of 4.5 hits - Average of 2.5 wounds.

pzbw7z wrote:If you play exclusively Annihilation, you won't suffer from the main weakness this army has. You won't get to decide what mission to play if you play in tournaments. This army will struggle in any objective mission.

That's fairly obvious. If it was a serious tournament I would either use a different army altogether or create a completely different list. I've been collecting 40k for over 12 years and playing regularly for about 5. This list is merely the building blocks to buy my DKK appropriately and to convert them appropriately. Even though I play most of my games against friends, I like to have the models weapons and gear to be specifically what I use them as.

pzbw7z wrote:As far as tanks, a list with few vehicles probably should use 'Russ chassis. If there's no Chimera wall to hide behind, the Chimera platform vehicles won't likely survive.

What is Russ Chassis?

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Almarine wrote:Hey mate i really like your list, so sexy with all the GLs : D

lol, thanks.
Honestly, how can I resist?

Almarine wrote:You could save some points on a few of the voxes since blobbed squads share them (correct me if I'm wrong), and that's when they'll matter most.

That's a damn good point, Its going to save me alot of trouble for converting extra Vox infantry aswell.

Almarine wrote:I would say the bodyguards are uncalled for. Your commander can't die from a chimera explosion and as you say probably won't be a very high priority target. And they're 30pts, enough for any one of the more useful advisors, or if you get a valkyrie, it's enough to give it pods (or cannons if you feel you need more).

Yeah I do agree with that, it just felt right to put them in since the role my CCS plays for my strategy, its not a huge factor anyway for which DKK models I'll be buying.

Almarine wrote:While the rough riders are cool and all, if you've followed through this far, cutting them can give you enough points for that valkyrie. Consider the mobility it provides - you can fill it with any of those useless line squads and suddenly threaten most any objective.

I'll read up on the Valkyrie carefully. Its not my favorite model to be honest which is why I have overlooked it but so far its been suggested more than once.

-edit , miss post.

I won't repeat all of the stuff already said, but a few notes:

HB vs AC: HB's may give more wounds on low toughness models, but most people prefer ac's for versatility. In this day and age oflists heavily populated with vehicles AC's can threaten av12 and lower along with MC's while still being anti-infantry. HB's are really only good for infantry. If you don't expect meq or armoured lists then go with hb's.

CCS: read your reasoning behind it's structure. If it's truly meant to sit behind and issue orders why then is it in a chimera. You don't need to move the CCS much and with so few vehicles your chimera's are going to have big shiny shoot me targets on them. Why not save the points for other things like your stormie meltas, and stick the ccs behind your blob squads where they'll be dificult to target due to LOS, and will always have a 4+ cover save because of all the guys in front of them.

You may also want to stick some pw's on you commisars, sarges and pcs, for when you invariably end up in cc. A power blob with 30 wounds, stubborn; and 5+ pw attacks has serious cc staying power.

Leprousy wrote: HB vs AC: HB's may give more wounds on low toughness models, but most people prefer ac's for versatility. In this day and age oflists heavily populated with vehicles AC's can threaten av12 and lower along with MC's while still being anti-infantry. HB's are really only good for infantry. If you don't expect meq or armoured lists then go with hb's.

I was told earlier that HW teams in an infantry squad can fire independently at separate units. I haven't looked for that rule yet, but I'm hesitant to believe it. If that is the case, then Auto Cannons are clearly a superior choice. If not, being someone who plays against Orks and Tyranids often, I might just stick with my HB's. It doesn't seem like the clear choice everyone has been emphasizing on so far. I don't want to waste an entire squads shots in the hopes that a BS3 auto cannon can do substantial damage to a vehicle. Especially when I have taken so many lascannons. Anyway once the rules are cleared up for me, things will be much different.

Leprousy wrote: CCS: read your reasoning behind it's structure. If it's truly meant to sit behind and issue orders why then is it in a chimera. You don't need to move the CCS much and with so few vehicles your chimera's are going to have big shiny shoot me targets on them. Why not save the points for other things like your stormie meltas, and stick the ccs behind your blob squads where they'll be dificult to target due to LOS, and will always have a 4+ cover save because of all the guys in front of them.

Well the thing is I want it to have mobility, I'm under the impression some of the orders have to be targeted at enemy units meaning I have to be selective about what I can see and what can see me. The Chimera will put itself into danger sometimes but in theory, whatever its trying to see will hopefully be "Brought down".

Leprousy wrote: You may also want to stick some pw's on you commissars, sarges and pcs, for when you invariably end up in cc. A power blob with 30 wounds, stubborn; and 5+ pw attacks has serious cc staying power.

Yeah, I will definitely consider some power weapons.

I think the hw's firing independently was meant that 3 individual infantry squads with hw's can fire at 3 targets, where as a hw squad all has to fire at same target. Now, if you power blob the point is moot, since the blob all has to fire at same target.

Leprousy wrote:I think the hw's firing independently was meant that 3 individual infantry squads with hw's can fire at 3 targets, where as a hw squad all has to fire at same target. Now, if you power blob the point is moot, since the blob all has to fire at same target.

Yes, that's what I meant. A heavy weapons squad can fire at one target; three lascannons, one target. Three infantry squads with three lascannons can fire at three targets.

Since you can fire all three at the same target if you need to, the Infantry can do the same job. However, if the first one gets the job done, the others can fire at something else.

The autocannons are pretty good at killing infantry, so they do well in a squad. One by itself isn't all that. Lascannons are pretty much just for vehicles. One can do the job.

A HWS with three lascannons is pretty expensive, that's a lot of points that's likely to run away at once. Every S6 wound is going to remove 40-points of HW. It takes much more fire power to remove the lascannon from an infantry squad. Plus an infantry squad has better leadership, at least until the sergeant bites it.

Every weapon and every configuration has some value; the trick is to find the best value. In the IG list, autocannons are a steal, lascannons are not. Melta is crazy cheap and very effective. Plasma is not cheap, but in a Guard army you can have a bit of everything.

Hmm, alright. I'll probably re-do my list in a bit, Its going to be quite different so who knows maybe i'll figure the AC's into the equation opposed to the HB's.

I plan on having 1 big blob, 1 medium blob, and maybe a couple of individual squads. Who knows I might even warm up to a few tanks.


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Alright so this is the new Improved DKK 1500 point list.
Infantry Platoon A is my somewhat of my front lines, they will soak up incoming CC waves. But their role is to be part of the Gun Line.
Infantry Platoon B is my main fire support, mainly to mow down infantry, except the HW squad of course.
My CCS as you know plays one role in this, do dish out orders and to do it fashionably.
My tanks are both anti infantry and anti vehicle.
As for my Storm Troopers, well I replaced them with a Veteran Squad. It just seems superior now that I took a closer look. I lose the hot-shot lasguns, but I gain an extra melta, the points cost is less, they can take orders, and of course if the odd scenario calls for it, they can capture objectives. I gave them Grenadiers for one main reason. I want to use the Grenadier DKK models, and I'll be using the Centaur with some slight converting as a Chimera.

Keep in mind I usually play on a cities of death style board, so my squads will deploy in buildings which is really handy for gun line style play.

HQ

Company Command Squad. 120
-Vox Caster.
-Chimera Transport. Extra Armor.

Lord Commissar 80
-Camo Cloak.

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon A. (Big Blob) 360
-Platoon Command Squad. Vox Caster, 1x Melta, Commander with PW
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, Sergeant with PW.
-Infantry Squad 2. Commisar (PW), Grenade Launcher, Sergeant with PW.
-Infantry Squad 3. Grenade Launcher, Sergeant with PW.


Infantry Platoon B. 390
-Platoon Command Squad. Vox Caster, 1x Gremade Launcher, 1x AC.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox Caster, Grenade Launcher, 1x AC.
-Infantry Squad 2. Commisar, Grenade Launcher, 1x AC.
Squad 1 and 2 to be joined together.
-Infantry Squad 3. Grenade Launcher, 1x AC.
-HW Team. 3x Lascannon. (to be joined with Lord Commissar)

Veteran Squad. 215
-Sergeant with Power Wep.
-3x Melta
-Vox Caster.
-Grenadiers.
-Chimera Transport. Extra Armor.

HEAVY SUPPORT 335

Leman Russ Demolisher. Dozer Blade.
Manticore Rocket Launcher.

Veterans are better value than Stormies, the special weapons are what matters. The Stormies have some nice rules that make up some of the difference. Grenadiers changes the equation substantially, but hey, if it's about the models, then it's about the models.

The Lord Commissar looked like a good idea when you had four HWS, not sure now that there is only one. You will need to be careful with his placement, otherwise one of your speed bumps might stay in combat an extra turn every now and then. You will want the little squads to die on your opponents turn so you can shoot them on yours.

The PCS can't be part of the blob, so it's not going to accomplish much in HtH; they would probably benefit more from shooty upgrades than fighty upgrades.

Melta Vets like shotguns; is that do-able with the models you have in mind? Plasma Vets go well with lasguns. Either are viable, but they are best at different roles.

The power weapon on the Vet is a dubious use of points. Power blobs work because you have several power weapons. One? Hits on 4+ wounds on 5+, or 6+.

I really wish grenade launchers were worth a crap; I've got a ton of them. I play a bunch just because I haven't obtained enough melta or plasma yet (Tallarn plasma guns aren't available except in the squad box ) to replace them. Even Krak is only AP4, they're just not effective. Melta is the best bargain in the game, but plasma has a place. Grenade launchers are just sad. But if it's about the models. . .

pzbw7z wrote:Veterans are better value than Stormies, the special weapons are what matters. The Stormies have some nice rules that make up some of the difference. Grenadiers changes the equation substantially, but hey, if it's about the models, then it's about the models.

Well first off lets just clear something up. Choosing to make a Death Korps of Krieg army, yeah right off the bat its alot about the models. I wouldn't pay close to 1000$ for a 1500 point army if it wasn't. However I do play alot, and I want to make sure that my money is well spent in the aspect of having an effective army list. If you don't think Grenadiers is worth the upgrade let me know why, I really do want some in depth explanation for things. As for Shotguns I am totally for that, in fact it can work in many ways, I can use the DKK Engineers as my Veterans and convert them to having some meltas, since they come with some damn cool shotguns anyway.

pzbw7z wrote:The Lord Commissar looked like a good idea when you had four HWS, not sure now that there is only one. You will need to be careful with his placement, otherwise one of your speed bumps might stay in combat an extra turn every now and then. You will want the little squads to die on your opponents turn so you can shoot them on yours.

Cant he only join one of the squads though, to give them the stealth rule? Regardless these guys are going to have a 4+ cover save most of the time from being inside buildings. Plus the Lord Commissars aura will be fairly close to alot of my infantry. Let me know what a typical setup for one of these Commissars is, as in what you would give him and where you would put him.

pzbw7z wrote:The PCS can't be part of the blob, so it's not going to accomplish much in HtH; they would probably benefit more from shooty upgrades than fighty upgrades.

alright that kind of change doesn't bother me.

pzbw7z wrote:Melta Vets like shotguns; is that do-able with the models you have in mind? Plasma Vets go well with lasguns. Either are viable, but they are best at different roles.

Oh yes, very doable. In fact I like this way better because the DKK Engineers are my favorite models and they have shotguns.

pzbw7z wrote:The power weapon on the Vet is a dubious use of points. Power blobs work because you have several power weapons. One? Hits on 4+ wounds on 5+, or 6+.

I agree completely, it was somewhat of some last minute point tweaking for making it 1500 points.

pzbw7z wrote:I really wish grenade launchers were worth a crap; I've got a ton of them. I play a bunch just because I haven't obtained enough melta or plasma yet (Tallarn plasma guns aren't available except in the squad box ) to replace them. Even Krak is only AP4, they're just not effective. Melta is the best bargain in the game, but plasma has a place. Grenade launchers are just sad. But if it's about the models. . .

Grenade Launchers are just non-negotiable. I am stubborn but to me they are fun to use. I get a kick out of them and I do love the models. I don't think you give them enough credit, but to each their own I guess. It's one of the things I really wont change about my list.

so, this list isn't too bad. The biggest problem is that you're spanding 80 points on a lord commissar for no reason other than to keep a 105 point unit on the table. Really, you're looking at a 185 point unit that only gets to shoot 3 lascannons per turn. Compare that to the manticore which, at 160 points, fires up to 3 shots, except that they're S10 ordnance and shoot indirectly, so hit side armor, and are fantastic against hordes.

If you insist on keeping the lascannoners, don't bother with the LC. If you insist on keeping the LC, give him carapace and a power fist, and send him into the fray with the power blobs.

Also, why are you going to purposely split off one of your squads from the second blob? Unless this is a seize ground mission with 5 objectives (and even then...) there's no point to splitting them off.

Finally, your LRD isn't doing a whole lot to help your list. LRDs are good against terminators, but so are power blobs. The only thing this adds is anti-tank, but it's doing this poorly for its price. I'd seriously consider at least swapping this out for a second manticore.

Oh, that and you should really turn the 65 pt. chimera into 4 plasma guns for the CCS.

Ailaros wrote:so, this list isn't too bad. The biggest problem is that you're spanding 80 points on a lord commissar for no reason other than to keep a 105 point unit on the table. Really, you're looking at a 185 point unit that only gets to shoot 3 lascannons per turn. Compare that to the manticore which, at 160 points, fires up to 3 shots, except that they're S10 ordnance and shoot indirectly, so hit side armor, and are fantastic against hordes.

The reason why I put the Lord Commissar with the HW squad is because I was told that would be a good idea by two people if you read up top. I did have more squads but he can only join one anyway. Plus his aura helps. Anyway in my last post I asked whats the best way to Incorporate my LC into my HW squad. It seems like a bit of a waste to put him in the blob, the regular commissar is half the points and the aura wont do anything effective in such a large blob. At least not as much as it would deployed around my infantry squads with HW teams.

Ailaros wrote:If you insist on keeping the lascannoners, don't bother with the LC. If you insist on keeping the LC, give him carapace and a power fist, and send him into the fray with the power blobs.

I got no problem with having just lascannons, the Lord Commissar was suggested to me to improve my original army list.

Ailaros wrote:Also, why are you going to purposely split off one of your squads from the second blob? Unless this is a seize ground mission with 5 objectives (and even then...) there's no point to splitting them off.

I am purposely doing this so I don't do any overkill with my target priority. Having more squads means I can separate my shooting more strategically. I do not see the logic whatsoever in having only 2 big infantry squads capable of only shooting at 2 different targets. I always take alot of care during my shooting phase to take the shots in an intelligent sequence to maximize the damage I do. Regardless this is something that only effects my list on deployment, not the list itself.

Ailaros wrote:Finally, your LRD isn't doing a whole lot to help your list. LRDs are good against terminators, but so are power blobs. The only thing this adds is anti-tank, but it's doing this poorly for its price. I'd seriously consider at least swapping this out for a second manticore.

Thats fine with me, Manticores are damn cool tanks. I'm a little worried about the minimum range to be honest, I thought my 1 Manticore was going to get some frowns from this crowd.

Ailaros wrote:Oh, that and you should really turn the 65 pt. chimera into 4 plasma guns for the CCS.

I dont think you have been reading this thread thoroughly, which is fine. But that's not happening

LordofSteel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:If you insist on keeping the lascannoners, don't bother with the LC. If you insist on keeping the LC, give him carapace and a power fist, and send him into the fray with the power blobs.

I got no problem with having just lascannons, the Lord Commissar was suggested to me to improve my original army list.

Ah, in this case, the LC does help your lone HW squad, but the end result isn't nearly good enough to justify its price.
The only help that an LC will give this list is a power fist.

LordofSteel wrote:Having more squads means I can separate my shooting more strategically. I do not see the logic whatsoever in having only 2 big infantry squads capable of only shooting at 2 different targets.

They're POWER BLOBS. They're not MEANT to shoot. If you want shooty blobs, take shooty blobs. Otherwise, the whole point is to get as many guys into the thick of it with as many enemy units as you possibly can. Having large blobs makes it easier to multi-assault stuff.

LordofSteel wrote: Manticores are damn cool tanks. I'm a little worried about the minimum range to be honest, I thought my 1 Manticore was going to get some frowns from this crowd.

Good thing they can also fire in direct fire mode...

LordofSteel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Oh, that and you should really turn the 65 pt. chimera into 4 plasma guns for the CCS.

I dont think you have been reading this thread thoroughly, which is fine. But that's not happening

Just because you want to give out orders doesn't give you an excuse to fail to arm your CCS properly. CCSs provide some of the best firepower in the entire guard army, with being able to carry 4 special weapons and always being in range of BiD and FoMT.

Currently, you're spending the price of a basilisk just to get your troops to run a little faster. This is a horrendous waste of points. The only way to make it less of a waste is if they can also kill stuff, which they currently can't.

Ailaros wrote:
Ah, in this case, the LC does help your lone HW squad, but the end result isn't nearly good enough to justify its price.
The only help that an LC will give this list is a power fist.

So what are you saying, give the LC a power fist when he is going to be nestled above ground in a building. I don't think a PF is going to save a heavy weapons team from much.
Or should I incorporate a second HW team and have them join together, so I have 6 Lascannons with my LC.

Ailaros wrote:They're POWER BLOBS. They're not MEANT to shoot. If you want shooty blobs, take shooty blobs. Otherwise, the whole point is to get as many guys into the thick of it with as many enemy units as you possibly can. Having large blobs makes it easier to multi-assault stuff.

They are shooty blobs that will inevitably get into close combat. If I happen to play against another shooty army, I'll think about marching these guys up. But I've specified before my play style for this army is generally going to be Gun-Line.

Ailaros wrote:Good thing they can also fire in direct fire mode...

Thanks, excuse my incompetence...

Ailaros wrote:Just because you want to give out orders doesn't give you an excuse to fail to arm your CCS properly. CCSs provide some of the best firepower in the entire guard army, with being able to carry 4 special weapons and always being in range of BiD and FoMT.
Currently, you're spending the price of a basilisk just to get your troops to run a little faster. This is a horrendous waste of points. The only way to make it less of a waste is if they can also kill stuff, which they currently can't.

BiD and FoMT alone make it worth its points in my opinion, especially for a shooty list. Having 4 special weapons would mean I wouldn't get my vox. So I could have 3, God forbid I say 3 grenade launchers, so lets say 3 plasmas. So now its 45 more points, i have 3 more shots that will on average cause 1 wound a turn. I'm not seeing the WoW factor with this.

Right now think of them as a small infantry squad, Vox, 4 Lasguns, a Heavy Bolter and a Multi Laser. Thats honestly just about the same firepower as a 10 man infantry squad with an auto cannon, grenade launcher and vox (70 points). So they are 50 points more then an infantry setup but they can give orders and are in an armored transport. I think people are too obsessed with dressing everything up in this game. I play with other armies and often I will make some HQ's very inexpensive and it works out great. You can pay the extra points, but if not they can be used elsewhere. 45 points in plasma guns isn't a Huge priority for me, sorry. Some of the advice you give me is great, some of it just doesn't work for me. I'm not a noob that's looking to have a list made for him, I'm just looking for some help and I take the advice that I like.


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Just to clear the air a bit, I don't want you or anyone who has posted here to take any of this as hostility. So far this has been extremely helpful and has shed alot of new light on how I'm going to field my imperial guard. I have a different way of thinking when it comes to playing 40k, most people think their is a single best way to do everything but I completely disagree with this notion. Often when discussing different approaches for building and using units it becomes more of a debate which really gets me to understand what I do and don't want in my list. Basically I don't take advice if I doesn't immediately strike me to be good advice, you have to convince me on some things. Thanks everyone for your help so far, the 3rd list should be even closer to an end result that I am very happy with.



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Alright, I submit to giving my CCS special weapons. Partly for the purpose of you guys to see past it because it was mentioned by mostly everyone. So the 3rd list, let me know what you think.


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Alright, I've got a new list. I think this ones an improvement from the last. Bare with me.


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HQ

Company Command Squad. 155
-Vox Caster.
-3x Plasma.
-Chimera.

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon A. (Big Blob) 305
-PCS. Vox, GL, LC.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox, GL, Sergeant with PW.
-Infantry Squad 2. Commisar with PW, GL, Sergeant with PW.
-Infantry Squad 3. GL, Sergeant with PW.
Squad 1, 2 and 3 to be joined together.


Infantry Platoon B. 390
-PCS. Vox, GL, LC.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox, GL, 1x AC.
-Infantry Squad 2. Commisar, GL, 1x AC.
Squad 1 and 2 to be joined together.
-Infantry Squad 3. Vox , GL, 1x AC.
-Infantry Squad 4. Commisar, GL, 1x AC.
Squad 3 and 4 to be joined together.

Veteran Squad. 160
-3x Melta.
-Shotguns.
-Vox.
-Chimera.

Veteran Squad. 160
-3x Melta.
-Shotguns.
-Vox.
-Chimera.

HEAVY SUPPORT

-Manticore
-Manticore

The point of the Lord Commissar was to use his leadership bubble to keep the original list's four HWS's in line and to give one stealth. He's not worth it for just one, but four? That's different.

I have to say from my experience, you won't miss the HWS too much; although they can succeed if you go first. They are really pretty fragile and people will quickly learn to shoot S6+ weaponry at them until they're gone.

How many grenade launchers do you have to have? Could you use melta in the power blob and still have enough grenade launchers for your taste?

What orders do the Vets really need to re-roll? Will they be within 12" of your CCS in the first place?

The new list strikes me as much improved. Since those DKoK models are such a bargain, you might want to get a few extra for a little variety and for experimentation.

Yeah, this list is definitely better.

Were I to change anything, I'd start with the first PCS. The blob he's commanding is going to be running forward, which means that he's going to have to stay within 6" to give his orders, which means he's going to have to be running forward as well. Drop both the GL and the lascannons for 3x melta or something.

Also, as mentioned, vets can't receive orders when they're in a chimera, meaning that you'll get very little use out of those voxes.

Finally, I'd get rid of all your GLs and autocannons and give your shooty blobs all plasma guns. Same S and RoF as the autocannon. They miss some of the range (though 24" is a long way away), but it allows them to also be good against MEq, TEq, MCs, and most single-model HQ units, and tau suits, and, and, and...

Surely the ability to be actually effective against most of the targets in the game is a worthwhile trade for some inches of range.

pzbw7z wrote:
I have to say from my experience, you won't miss the HWS too much; although they can succeed if you go first. They are really pretty fragile and people will quickly learn to shoot S6+ weaponry at them until they're gone.

Yeah, I kind of like the lascannons in the PCS's. It seems to give them a little more purpose.

pzbw7z wrote:How many grenade launchers do you have to have? Could you use melta in the power blob and still have enough grenade launchers for your taste?

That would only leave me with 6 though!! lol, hmm yeah melta's in the power blob could work out nicely.

pzbw7z wrote:What orders do the Vets really need to re-roll? Will they be within 12" of your CCS in the first place?

Omg lol. I completely missed that. I was under the impression orders were just a line of sight thing and had no range, that changes everything. I'm surprised that didn't come up sooner.

pzbw7z wrote:The new list strikes me as much improved. Since those DKoK models are such a bargain, you might want to get a few extra for a little variety and for experimentation.

Yeah, the infantry themselves are hard to convert or magnetize but I should have extras.



Im going to re-write the 3rd list with some slight changes, well I guess it will be the fourth.

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Ailaros wrote:Yeah, this list is definitely better.

Were I to change anything, I'd start with the first PCS. The blob he's commanding is going to be running forward, which means that he's going to have to stay within 6" to give his orders, which means he's going to have to be running forward as well. Drop both the GL and the lascannons for 3x melta or something.

hmm, That will bring me down to one lascannon. Cant he sit back with the 2 smaller shooty blobs and the other PCS and give them orders? Or can he only give orders to units part of his platoon? That leaves me with the blob and the 2 vet squads advancing with the two smaller blobs and the 2 pcs sitting back and shooting. The CCS, learning that their is a command radius leaves me a bit unsure of how I will play the squad now.

Ailaros wrote:Finally, I'd get rid of all your GLs and autocannons and give your shooty blobs all plasma guns. Same S and RoF as the autocannon. They miss some of the range (though 24" is a long way away), but it allows them to also be good against MEq, TEq, MCs, and most single-model HQ units, and tau suits, and, and, and...

No autocannons or GL's whatsoever? I'm not so sure I can sacrifice this much. Against orkz and tyranids they can be good for thinning out swarms for my blob.


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**So wait, a CCS can't give orders from the Chimera? right? I have to clear these questions up before my next list.







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Alright 4th list. I'm starting to understand your logic much more clearly. I did a closer read at some of the rules, thinking that Orders where different really effected things.

HQ

Company Command Squad. 100
-Vox Caster.
-3x Plasma.

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon A. (Big Blob) 340
-PCS. Vox, 3x Plasma.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox, Melta, Sergeant with PW.
-Infantry Squad 2. Commisar with PW, Melta, Sergeant with PW.
-Infantry Squad 3. Melta, Sergeant with PW.
Squad 1, 2 and 3 to be joined together. As well as their PCS following close.


Infantry Platoon B. 400
-PCS. Vox, GL, LC.
-Infantry Squad 1. Vox, GL, 1x AC.
-Infantry Squad 2. Commisar, GL, 1x AC.
Squad 1 and 2 to be joined together. With their PCS nearby.
-Infantry Squad 3. Vox , GL, 1x AC.
-Infantry Squad 4. Commisar, GL, 1x AC.
Squad 3 and 4 to be joined together. With the CCS nearby.

Veteran Squad. 170
-3x Melta.
-Shotguns.
-Chimera. Extra Armor.

Veteran Squad. 170
-3x Melta.
-Shotguns.
-Chimera. Extra Armor.

HEAVY SUPPORT

-Manticore
-Manticore

1500 points on the nose, I had 30 excess from the most important changes I made, so I gave my 2 vet's Chimeras Extra Armor. Lmk what you think.

Orders can be given from a Chimera - not received, but given. They can't be given from any other transport - unless it has a similar special rule to the Chimera's Command Vehicle. There is still the command radius thing to account for.

Personally, I like autocannons in units that can have more than one. I'm not so hot on the single ones, even though they are better than lascannons in a number of situations and are super cheap. They are super against Dark Eldar and Ork vehicles - as long as their pesky wargear doesn't ruin things. Autocannons are still marginally better against 11-AV vehicles as well. They start to suck against 12-AV and the blow pretty hard against 13-AV.

I'm actually thinking of running autocannon Scout sentinels instead of or in addition to the HWS. They aren't fabulous, but they are cheap and they can Scout and Forge World has a Tallarn version! But that's my list, this is about yours.

Lascannons are expensive in the IG list, I think maybe too expensive. I use quite a few, but that's partly because the lot of models I bought has a metric-crap load of them, and they do blow things up. I like them better in the infantry squads than elsewhere, because they last a bit longer there.

Maybe you could save the grenade launchers for one PCS, and equip at least some of the Infantry squads with plasma for some extra, low-ap shootiness.

As far as giving orders; the officers are not restricted to giving orders to their own units. In fact, a PCS can give orders to the CCS! The first Move! Move Move! may be good enough for your blob. If you conga-line a bit, you can actually keep a blob in order range for an extra turn or two. It looks silly, but it can work.

Imo, the power blobs can be easily dismantled by either just assaulting into them or taking away their orders rather easily. Mainly relying on a 4+ cover save doesnt do jack.

Call me biased as a long time lover of Armageddon's steel legions from way back but look at it this way, guardsmen are the crappiest assaulting unit in the game. All you have is numbers without fleet and only a way to just stay in the fight. Most people with either have armor to stay in the fight as well or they will have fleet, no armor, and insane I and hose you in their assault phase, you will stay in combat after losing, at the end of your turn probly get finished off or finish them off and then you are in the open on their turn.

There is some serious mathhammer that went into the power blob idea but i do not see how it stands up to any kind of anything, having its only offense being numbers of men with 1 attack. That is sad and their purpose has been clearly made into being a gunline or to make a bunch of cheap ways to get chimeras.

your defense in a blobbed army seems to me to be your numbers backed by Ld. But when you get to a target, you had best get the charge and be going against something T3 or a crappy save. Two conditions that are not going to be easily met if the opponent has charging you in in mind.