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Nenya97 wrote:There is some serious mathhammer that went into the power blob idea but i do not see how it stands up to any kind of anything

It stands up like this.

As for the list, it's now good enough for my seal of approval.

The only thing I don't like still is the GLAC squads. I think that your opinion of these weapons is higher than should be merited.

Against orks, the blast template won't work if your opponent spreads out. The fact that you can be 2" apart and still be in coherency and the blast radius of a small blast weapon is only 1.5" means that it's pretty easy to take only a single hit from small blast weapons. I'm a horde commander and I do this all the time. Small blast weapons do not scare me in the slightest. Meanwhile, the only kinds of vehicles that are going to be fielded are the kind that tend to be fast, open topped, and driving straight at you. The range advantage of the autocannon vs. the plasma gun is very minimal in this case, while the plasma gun is better against nobz, bikers, koptaz, and the like.

Against tyranid, likewise the blasts aren't going to be doing lots against bugs if the nid player is smart, and the volume of fire with krak grenades is too low to seriously threaten monstrous creatures (much less it's only AP4...). Meanwhile, autocannons also suffer against the big ones because of being only AP4 - a problem from which plasma does not suffer.

The ONLY advantage of GLAC over plasma is a degree of range. The fact that battlefields are small and units quick to maneuver seriously mitigates this advantage. Meanwhile, the killing power gained by plasma is extraordinary. All you need is 5 more points to access this.

Nenya97 wrote:Imo, the power blobs can be easily dismantled by either just assaulting into them or taking away their orders rather easily. Mainly relying on a 4+ cover save doesnt do jack.

Call me biased as a long time lover of Armageddon's steel legions from way back but look at it this way, guardsmen are the crappiest assaulting unit in the game. All you have is numbers without fleet and only a way to just stay in the fight. Most people with either have armor to stay in the fight as well or they will have fleet, no armor, and insane I and hose you in their assault phase, you will stay in combat after losing, at the end of your turn probly get finished off or finish them off and then you are in the open on their turn.

There is some serious mathhammer that went into the power blob idea but i do not see how it stands up to any kind of anything, having its only offense being numbers of men with 1 attack. That is sad and their purpose has been clearly made into being a gunline or to make a bunch of cheap ways to get chimeras.

your defense in a blobbed army seems to me to be your numbers backed by Ld. But when you get to a target, you had best get the charge and be going against something T3 or a crappy save. Two conditions that are not going to be easily met if the opponent has charging you in in mind.

For sure my blob is going to have itself outmatched in some cases. For instant a Wraith wing, that would probably be the most terrifying thing for my list to face off the top of my head. It would destroy my blob in 2 rounds of CC, and shrug off the power weapons as if they were guardsman shovels. Hmm Lets say I charged some Ork Boyz, a 30man squad vs mine, im going to do the math. Give me a minute.

Given that its 30 regular boyz against my blob, I'll kill 10 on the charge, and his 20 left will kill 13 roughly. So I should barely lose CC.
If I don't assault and I shoot instead, I kill about 12 but then give him a chance to assault next turn.

Realistically though, I'm going to shoot things with my smaller shooty blobs before I assault them with my Power Blob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:As for the list, it's now good enough for my seal of approval.

Awesome, .

Ailaros wrote:The only thing I don't like still is the GLAC squads. I think that your opinion of these weapons is higher than should be merited.

I've been doing some calculating in terms of whats the cheapest way to buy DKK infantry that have, Vox's, Meltas, Plasmas, and PW's. And the fact of the matter is, I'm going to have spares, so if I decide I want to use Plasma infantry squads opposed to GLAC I will be able too.

Ailaros wrote:Against tyranid, likewise the blasts aren't going to be doing lots against bugs if the nid player is smart, and the volume of fire with krak grenades is too low to seriously threaten monstrous creatures (much less it's only AP4...). Meanwhile, autocannons also suffer against the big ones because of being only AP4 - a problem from which plasma does not suffer.

To be honest though, if you do the math check it out. 1 Krak Grenade Launcher and 1 Auto Cannon, vs a single Plasma Gun at wounding a T6, 3+ armor save MC at 13-24" range.
GL - 1 shot - .5 average hit - .25 average wound - 0.083 chance of it failing its armor save. (8.3% chance to wound).
AC - 2 shots - 1 average hit - .66 average wound - 0.222 chance of it failing its armor save. (22% chance to wound).

So thats a 30.3% chance my GLAC combo will wound it.

Plasma - 1 shot - .5 average hit - .33 average wound - automatically wounded. (33% chance to wound).

Its not that much superior of a weapon in that scenario. Given the MC is within rapid fire range, and that I used "First rank fire, second rank fire" it will be more effective, but its almost a waste vs light infantry.
C'mon, GLAC arent That Bad.

I didn't see much in those batreps that held some kind of standing. Most lists you decimated were nothing you would see in a serious tournament, along with non standard missions. Really good read on the commentary but a lot of it has no standing in a competitive standard mission world (that I saw, anyways).

In regards to how this blob list goes, though, these are what my thoughts were on a little more maximization on things:

ccs
-2x plasmagun
-vox

pcs
-2x flamer
-chimera

infantry squad
-commissar
-vox
-grenade launcher
-autocannon

-infantry squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon

infantry squad
-commissar
-vox
-grenade launcher
-autocannon

-infantry squad
-grenade launcher
-autocannon

pcs
-2x flamer
-chimera

infantry squad
-commissar
--power weapon
-meltagun
-power weapon

infantry squad
-meltagun
-power weapon

infantry squad
-meltagun
-power weapon

veteran squad
-3x meltagun
-chimera

veteran squad
-3x meltagun
-chimera

manticore

manticore



Basically same structure as you had but giving the blob rushing up some support to hold off its flanks with the pcs's able to follow giving the run run run orders and once they make it to the target, heavy flaming them and being able to wade off your opponent from assaulting you while you are still in combat while holding the flamers. This seems better to me in the light that you now have mobile S6 guns giving some lighter vehicles problems and picking off stragglers if needed and what-not.

Other than the protection of the blob, your pcs now cant just get picked off by random firing squads into them, killing a potentially scoring unit. You now have 2 more mobile scoring units while maintaining the blob aspect.

What stays in back, then, is the ccs giving commands to the two gunline blobs to keep their shots firing true into their targets.

Nenya97 wrote:Most lists you decimated were nothing you would see in a serious tournament, along with non standard missions. Really good read on the commentary but a lot of it has no standing in a competitive standard mission world (that I saw, anyways).

The 10 most recent reports were against opponents using standard missions, and some of them had lists specifically tailored to beat power blobs. In the last 10 games I haven't lost any.

And yes, the lists I see are often ones I wouldn't see in a tournament. This isn't surprising as tournament games aren't regular games of 40k. To say that the only serious 40k play is tournament play is a very unfortunate belief.

Power blobs stomp stuff. End of. You don't need to play them if you don't want to (there are other things that also stomp), but infantry lists don't need vehicles to be competitive.

Sergeants have two base attacks plus one for an extra weapon, ditto for the Commissar. A three-squad blob with one Commissar throws twelve power-weapon attacks per turn.

Leadership isn't a big issue with a stubborn LD 9 that's re-rollable - although the re-roll does hurt a bit.

Power blobs aren't killer assault units, but they are IG units that can go forth and take care of themselves against most units.

Throw in AL'Rahem and one can be fleet as well, provided you can make an LD 9 test.

Ailaros wrote:To say that the only serious 40k play is tournament play is a very unfortunate belief.

I would beg to differ, that is very fortunate that we can keep serious games in a separate setting.


In regards to the DKK list...
I must say that the more I think about it and after reading Ailaros' batreps, that an infantry based IG army has almost got to have alrahem. It is the outflanking element with the two smaller gunline blobs to stay back on the flanks to allow for your opponent to react to. Gives your opponent a lot of different choices on where to deploy and such.

The Manticores will serve you well. They are devastating if positioned right to do their job. I would suggest hydras, though, if you get any higher than 1500 as your 3rd heavy slot but only a squad of 2.

Might I propose another list:

1500
ccs
-astropath
-vox

priest
-eviscerator

pcs
-al rahem

infantry squad
--commissar
--power weapon
-vox
-power weapon
infantry squad
-power weapon
-meltagun
infantry squad
-power weapon
-meltagun

pcs
-vox

infantry squad
-commissar
-autocannon
-grenade launcher
-vox
infantry squad
-autocannon
-grenade launcher

infantry squad
-commissar
-autocannon
-grenade launcher
-vox
infantry squad
-autocannon
-grenade launcher

veteran squad
-3x meltaguns
-chimera
veteran squad
-3x meltaguns
-chimera

manticore
manticore

Nenya97 wrote:Imo, the power blobs can be easily dismantled by either just assaulting into them or taking away their orders rather easily. Mainly relying on a 4+ cover save doesnt do jack.

Call me biased as a long time lover of Armageddon's steel legions from way back but look at it this way, guardsmen are the crappiest assaulting unit in the game. All you have is numbers without fleet and only a way to just stay in the fight. Most people with either have armor to stay in the fight as well or they will have fleet, no armor, and insane I and hose you in their assault phase, you will stay in combat after losing, at the end of your turn probly get finished off or finish them off and then you are in the open on their turn.

There is some serious mathhammer that went into the power blob idea but i do not see how it stands up to any kind of anything, having its only offense being numbers of men with 1 attack. That is sad and their purpose has been clearly made into being a gunline or to make a bunch of cheap ways to get chimeras.

your defense in a blobbed army seems to me to be your numbers backed by Ld. But when you get to a target, you had best get the charge and be going against something T3 or a crappy save. Two conditions that are not going to be easily met if the opponent has charging you in in mind.

Actually with a few melee upgrades, like power swords and grenades, you can create a really nasty surprise for whoever decides to assault you. Use the infantry for what they are: casualties. Make them a human barbed wire pit, so by the time the enemy's assault is over, they have taken enough casualties that regret the assault. Guardsmen are cheap, assault space marines are not. Take advantage of the fact for every 10 men you lose, you only need to kill about 3 space marines (I think that is right) to do the same points damage. Moreso, back up your troops with a powerful CCS, like Straken or Creed and you increase their ability to melee even more.

I see the logic behind both of your suggestions Lathrop and Nenya97. I am hesitant to incorporate special characters into my list but for tournament play its sometimes a necessity. Like I said earlier being a DKK army I am very particular about the looks and the models themselves, it would take every bit of creativity to convert special characters at par with my DKK models. None the less its doable, and the Quartermaster model has potential.

I do like the list you've proposed Nenya, so I'm going to screen shot and it save it. But overall it has little effect on the way I will purchase my DKK so at this point I wont need to re-write my own list.
Hydras you say? Those are pretty damn cool tanks, and inexpensive at that. If I went above 1500 though, what do you think of a second advancing blob? and possibly even more smaller shooty blobs.
Well actually if I went to 2000, I could replicate the big blob and throw in two Hydras for just under 500 points. For now though, going past 1500 points is a bit superfluous.

At about 1750, I would incorporate another infantry squad in alrahems platoon two make 2 seperate 20man power blobs (each with commissars) and a couple hydras squaded.
.
2000 points I would dare say adding actual heavy weapon teams instead of gunline mobs. Keeping Alrahems men outflanking but make the gunliners into footslogging power blobs to really put the pressure on. Using the heavy weapon teams back to form their own teams

Modeling AlRahem would be relatively easy, just need a plasma-pistol and a cool sword.

Yeah, I could convert his laspistol inta a plasma pistol, as for a PW I guess it could be sheathed on his side. Although he might be more suited for a different special character, he looks a bit slow.

Nenya97 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:To say that the only serious 40k play is tournament play is a very unfortunate belief.

I would beg to differ, that is very fortunate that we can keep serious games in a separate setting.

Regular games can be just as serious and competitive.

I'm not saying that tournaments aren't competitive or serious. I'm saying that they're not regular games of 40k. Playing a 2000 point game in 2 hours significantly limits the types of armies which can be competitive - not because the army type themselves are uncompetitive, but because the limit placed on top of the regular rules.

a 2000 point guard list can easily have 300 models. That's not going to be beaten by most army lists. It's also uncompetitive in tournaments because you'd never get past turn 1.

That only certain lists are seen at tournaments is telling about tournaments, not certain lists.

As for power blobs, if you won't see reason through math or through empirical demonstration, I'm afraid that nothing will convince you. I can only hope that the OP ignores advice based purely on stubbornness.

I think you will find that five or six Infantry squads are about enough, regardless of army size. It's just such a pain in the to deploy and pack up. Plus you will find it difficult to find enough cover and maybe even space for deployment. Spearhead can be a bear when you've got seven or eight infantry units to deploy.

Think about vehicles and transported units (Vets, Stormies, DH or WH allies).

I wouldn't say Al'Rahem is a must, but he's definitely a "why not". Three platoons seems to be the sweet spot for his power blob. One could add maybe one special weapon squad and a Chimera for the PCS before it gets too crowded. It's a killer unit.

I'm not so down on autocannons, but I like them better when there are more than one in a unit. I would put plasma (you do remember that plasma guns can rapid fire, don't you?) and lascannon in a stand-and-shoot Infantry platoon if I had the models (which I will do, soon enough). Maybe even a plasma pistol.

Autocannons (IMO) should be relegated to HWS squads, Scout Sentinels, and Hydras. Grenade launchers? Well, I've got plans to get some Dremel accessories to take care of mine.

Try a few of each perhaps; outfit half of your shooty platoons with plasma/lascannon and the other with GL/AC. See what you like. Perhaps someone has some Cadian or Catachan stuff you could borrow (I'm giving Cadian crap away!). Try it out with some proxies.

Do the same thing with the PCS's. Try them out with melta, plasma, and GL. See what happens. What's the worst thing that could happen?

pzbw7z wrote:I think you will find that five or six Infantry squads are about enough, regardless of army size. It's just such a pain in the to deploy and pack up. Plus you will find it difficult to find enough cover and maybe even space for deployment. Spearhead can be a bear when you've got seven or eight infantry units to deploy.

Yeah I'm aware of the amount of models, however my terrain and terrain table is generally where 90% of my games are going to take place. All the buildings are games-workshop cities of death kits so deploying my shooty blobs will be a breeze. The Manticores are going to deploy in the far back generally every time, all thats left for the front lines is my chimeras and my big blob.

pzbw7z wrote:Think about vehicles and transported units (Vets, Stormies, DH or WH allies).

I actually have some DH's Not too shabby eh?

pzbw7z wrote:I wouldn't say Al'Rahem is a must, but he's definitely a "why not". Three platoons seems to be the sweet spot for his power blob. One could add maybe one special weapon squad and a Chimera for the PCS before it gets too crowded. It's a killer unit.

I'll definitely experiment with special characters once I can start playing, considering most of them are so inexpensive in points, which is a huge selling point for me.

pzbw7z wrote:I'm not so down on autocannons, but I like them better when there are more than one in a unit. I would put plasma (you do remember that plasma guns can rapid fire, don't you?) and lascannon in a stand-and-shoot Infantry platoon if I had the models (which I will do, soon enough). Maybe even a plasma pistol.

Hey, I'm a little bit insulted by this lol. Do I really seem to be that big of a noob from my former lack of IG knowledge? Yes, I know plasma guns can rapid fire. I've been into the hobby since 1998, don't let my post count fool you.
As for the AC and GL mix, It's just my preference. First I was convinced from HB to AC (which is still debatable in my mind), then from AC to Plasma Guns. No doubt I can see the logic, but I stand by my ACGL choice. I like to find the balance between whats best, and what I like.

pzbw7z wrote:Do the same thing with the PCS's. Try them out with melta, plasma, and GL. See what happens. What's the worst thing that could happen?

Unfortunately, these models are really expensive and I'll probably be buying them as a lot. Converting them will be more difficult than Cadians, but I will have extra special weapons infantry. Their is going to be alot of testing out once my force is ready. The idea of the army list was just to give me the foundation of my DKK purchases, the small details will fit themselves in when the occasion calls for it.

The Grey Knights are very nice and might well be useful in larger games. They can commandeer a Chimera or catch a ride in a Valkyrie or even a Vendetta.

Your math-hammer exercise above didn't include the rapid-firing, I certainly didn't mean to imply you were a noob, even if you've been playing only since 1998 .

Plasma is a waste or nearly a waste against some things, but there are so many things against which it is so useful. I particularly like the IG's ability to put three or four in a unit; that allows one to deal with MEQ or TEQ properly and without having to shoot one's entire army at one unit.

Good luck with it and don't forget to post some pictures.

pzbw7z wrote:The Grey Knights are very nice and might well be useful in larger games. They can commandeer a Chimera or catch a ride in a Valkyrie or even a Vendetta.

Your math-hammer exercise above didn't include the rapid-firing, I certainly didn't mean to imply you were a noob, even if you've been playing only since 1998 .

Plasma is a waste or nearly a waste against some things, but there are so many things against which it is so useful. I particularly like the IG's ability to put three or four in a unit; that allows one to deal with MEQ or TEQ properly and without having to shoot one's entire army at one unit.

Good luck with it and don't forget to post some pictures.

Oh, mister 1996 over there, la di da. . Well in all fairness I've been collecting since 1998, only playing since 2006.

Yeah the Grey Knights will be fun to incorporate but i'll have to find the energy to paint the other 7. I chose to give them a scheme that takes me 3 hours to do per model. Luckily my DKK I got less ambitious and went for a 30minute per model scheme. On vehicles though I'll spend a good few hours. I'm working on a Chimera as we speak, I might even be done tonight. If so I'll post a pic of it here for a little taste. The rest of it I'll throw into a WIP log once I get my hands on some models.

Thanks again for the help, and good luck to you sir!

You can get good results with five Grey Knights. If you decide to paint all ten, make sure to get another Justicar.

It may not really be worth it, but it gives a bit pf punch without having to use thirty models in a bunch.