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1) I've got 2 vendetta melta/shotgun vets built, and after skimming the forums for ideas, I decided to make and ordered a 3rd vet/vendetta squad. Would it be better to make them a 3rd melta/shotgun group for more redundancy, or should I create a lasgun/plasma squad for range support? My intent is to run the three squads together in a area and split the vendetta trio off to hit hard targets elsewhere. If the squad does go plasma, should I get the caraspace armor option to help my save rolls against a meltdown?

2) Is it better that my caraspace armored command squad have a 4th plasma gun, or 3 plasma guns and a medic? They mainly just stick in the chimera assigned to them, so the FNP really comes into play only if the guns overheat or their ride blows.

1.) if you've already got 2 melta vendetta-vets, then you should probably go with plasma for your third. Depends on what the rest of your list looks like, though. If you do take them, don't bother with carapace, though.

4.) 4 plasma.

3 dudes shooting plasma with a medic in any given turn put down 4 hits with about .3 burns. The next turn (assuming they even survive), they put down 4 hits for another .3 burns. Odds of them getting three good rounds of shooting with plasma guns at 12" are pretty low.

Meanwhile, 4 dudes with 4 plasma guns puts down 5 hits for 1 burn. The next turn they put down 4 hits for .6 burns.

As such, for 15 extra points, you gain the ability to do one FEWER plasma hit per game.

Statistically yes, you do lose shots if you replace a plasma with a medic. HOWEVER one of the factors Ailaros hasn't considered is any subsequent shooting phases past the one in which you lose a gunner.

You see, a CCS with 4 plasmas may well (and probably will) lose at least one guy per rapid-fire phase. The loss of even a single gunner decreases the effectiveness of the squad dramatically, which is something a medic goes a long way towards offsetting.

From a personal POV, I take a medic in my CCS to stop overheats wrecking the squad's ability to do damage. In Veteran squads? I don't take plasma so can't really comment.

If out-and-out damage is your thing then by all means go for 4 x plasma in the CCS. If you want them to stick around a little bit longer and have a second opportunity to pay for themselves, take a medic.

L. Wrex

'kay, thanks. I still don't know which way I'll go with the medic, but since its just swapping out one model, I'll probably try both and see what works best for me. Definitly going with plasma vets now though (sans caraspace.) Thanks agian.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:HOWEVER one of the factors Ailaros hasn't considered is any subsequent shooting phases past the one in which you lose a gunner.

Actually, I did...

Ailaros wrote:3 dudes shooting plasma with a medic in any given turn put down 4 hits with about .3 burns. The next turn (assuming they even survive), they put down 4 hits for another .3 burns. Odds of them getting three good rounds of shooting with plasma guns at 12" are pretty low.

Meanwhile, 4 dudes with 4 plasma guns puts down 5 hits for 1 burn. The next turn they put down 4 hits for .6 burns.

The first turn of shooting, you do more damage with 4. The second you do about the same. How many more turns of shooting at 12" with plasma guns do you really think you're going to get?

Plus, when you knock off the price of a medic, you can add a plasma pistol, which means you're now doing more damage in both the first AND second turn of shooting. AND you have points left over...

Ailaros has it right. Medics are pretty much a waste of money. You're guard, guard has bodys to waste, plus the FNP is ovepriced in my opinion, when as he said, with the same amount of points you can get more plasma weapons.

I repectfully disagree with both of you.

If you roll 8 x dice to hit you'll get on average what, 2 x ones in that pile? Now, these ones could all be on one gunner, in which case its not that big a deal as you only lose one man, or it could be on two gunners, which is a lot, lot worse; as now you've halved the overall effectiveness of your squad in your own shooting phase not taking into account how many actual hits you get.

Plasma weaponry is expensive. Even for IG. To lose those pricey guns to overheats is not a very effective allocation of points. The medic helps mitigate this somewhat as he tacks on a LOT of survivability to a squad you kind of want to protect (what with BiD and stuff). I like, and laud, the use of plasma weaponry as I think its underused and under-appreciated. However, you need to offset the damage output by creating contingency plans should the dice turn around and bite you in the ass.

Take the medic. He may not be used 50% of games because you roll well. But when you roll badly you'll be damn glad you took him.

L. Wrex

With 8 dice to hit you will not, on average, get two 1s.

In my experience plasma armed units do not manage to shoot more than twice in most cases. If they are in a position to shoot and your opponent lets them live any longer than two turns, then you have already outsmarted and outplayed your enemy and the game is basically over. I would not recommend any carapace or any medics, as the points can be used very well elsewhere. One possibility is to use the leftovers to get them a demolition charge.

No, you get 1.333*. That's still potentially 1.3 dead gunners every time you shoot at 12". If you only have 6 shots the stat drops to 1, except you have the added protection of a medic to offset the damage caused by your own guns.

I use a plasma CCS so my advice isn't based upon statistical averages but upon actual experience on the table. If your plasma gunners aren't shooting more than two times then I'm afraid your not adequately protecting them. They are an expensive investment (in IG terms) and you should protect them as such. Simply throwing them away with the attitude of 'I have more' doesn't really cut it when you only have 2 x HQ FOC slots.

On Veterans? That's a whole different kettle of fish.

L. Wrex

The cost of the medi-pack doesn't just cover burns though. That's where the argument against it loses some steam. It covers any failed save, I love camping my CCS in cover and watch my opponent waste fusillades of fire on my squad as they survive countless times from failed cover saves.

I like carapace armor for my CCS, it's cheap, lets you pack 4 plasma guns in and improves survival odds by about 50%. Best of both world imho.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:No, you get 1.333*. That's still potentially 1.3 dead gunners every time you shoot at 12".

Don't forget armor saves.

8 shots = 1.3 burns = .88 killed. I was actually being GENEROUS with my eariler math, given that I just assumed one died straight away.

Even including losing models to burns, the extra plasma gun just does more damage over time.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:If your plasma gunners aren't shooting more than two times then I'm afraid your not adequately protecting them.

?

If you're 12" away from something using BiD and FoMT like a fiend, that means that your opponent is 12" away from you. That's assault range. In the very least, small arms are automatically in range, and it's not going to be hard to use a flamer from this far away. I really don't see how you can possibly keep a plasma unit alive for more than 2 turns if you're shooting from 12", and your opponent really wants it dead.

Especially without also giving them cover saves against your plasma shooting.

Don't forget armor saves.

8 shots = 1.3 burns = .88 killed. I was actually being GENEROUS with my eariler math, given that I just assumed one died straight away.

Even including losing models to burns, the extra plasma gun just does more damage over time.

Ok then to what leads the 4th plasmagun? it does not even kill a model. should be about 0,6-0,7 dead T1-5 models in cover (stomach math).
so you think you want to pay 15p for killing possibly one guy for the whole game? (Assuming you shoot only once) So we have to conclude in a very disappointing kill-ratio of about 2-3 enemy models shooting with 4 plasmaguns in close range. the 2-3 remaining combat squad marines will wipe out your CCS in the countercharge easily.

This is where we get to a point. You wont do much less damage using 3 plasmaguns, but you will more likely defend yourself against the charging remnants if you equip medic and powerfist.
so you will probably shoot a second time after you killed 5 guys instead shooting never again after killing 3, maybe 4 guys.

If you're 12" away from something using BiD and FoMT like a fiend, that means that your opponent is 12" away from you. That's assault range. In the very least, small arms are automatically in range, and it's not going to be hard to use a flamer from this far away. I really don't see how you can possibly keep a plasma unit alive for more than 2 turns if you're shooting from 12", and your opponent really wants it dead.

Especially without also giving them cover saves against your plasma shooting.

Combined arms my friend.
3 units for one job, thats guard philosophy. But not 3 dead units, but 3 units at a time at minimum. If you engage a target be sure to wipe it out completely before it can strike back.

But I agree to you, you must expect your opponent dug in. Especially MEQ has absolutely no problem finding some cover without losing much mobility.

And this is actually the reason why I leave plasmaguns at the armoury, they just dont perform that well against MEQ/TEQ in cover.

Another possibility: hiding behind tanks.

Just a 0,5" slit is sufficient to shoot through, but insufficient to charge through.

And speaking of flamers: You rarely see flamers, most people take meltaguns in offensive squads.
Against flamers you will have no problems, they wont hurt you, so a few tank shocks will solve the problem easier than shooting anything

The "moar shots is always bettah" side of the argument is failing to account for enemy fire at the CCS. Medic goes a long way to bolster survivability against enemies. Say your chimera gets blown up and you're now in the ruins. A squad of marines rapid firing on you will kill most of the squad even through 4+ cover. Add FNP to the equation, and suddenly things aren't so grim.

You can always give the CCS a plasma pistol, too.

That said, I don't know if I would invest in BOTH carapace AND a medic. If I relied on the unit for orders (i.e. had blob squads or some such nearby), I'd take the medic. Otherwise, if they are just a glorified special weapons team, I'd take the carapace, 4th plasmagun and plasmapistol (eat 7 shots, sucker!).

Something tells me that FNP alone isn't going to keep a single 5-man squad of T3 squishies alive against a determined opponent. Yes, it may keep them alive against a round of bolter fire, but they're not coming out in tact. In fact, they're probably going to come out with just 1 plasma gun - scarcely a threat anymore.

And that is, of course, if the enemy doesn't focus fire on them (which they will if they consider them a threat), or get into close combat (which they probably can if you're shooting from 12" away), or whip out weapons which ignore FNP (which everybody brings in case of BA or Nurgle players).

And that's assuming they even pass their morale check.

No, a 5-man squad of squishies is going to get squished if your opponent wants them squished - carapace, medic, or otherwise.

Might as well do as much damage as you can while the unit is safe, because they're going to be doing VERY little damage (as in probably zero) once they spend a turn endangered.

Yes, let the opponent get all hot under the collar over killing them. Every extra round of bolter fire the opponent has to expend killing the CCS, is one less fusillade fired at that veteran squad about to capture that objective, or two fewer melta shots at that vendetta about to deliver a SWS with demo charges.

Even if the unit is crippled to the point that they can no longer put out any damage, well, the last model standing is probably the Officer, who can now run to safety, thus denying them a kill point and keeping orders in play.

That said, I only give plasmaguns to a CCS if I'm bringing two of them, and I usually spend my second HQ slot on an Inquisitor. The first CCS usually comes with a standard, vox, and a pair of meltas just in case.

Terminus wrote:The "moar shots is always bettah" side of the argument is failing to account for enemy fire at the CCS. Medic goes a long way to bolster survivability against enemies. Say your chimera gets blown up and you're now in the ruins. A squad of marines rapid firing on you will kill most of the squad even through 4+ cover. Add FNP to the equation, and suddenly things aren't so grim.

You can always give the CCS a plasma pistol, too.

That said, I don't know if I would invest in BOTH carapace AND a medic. If I relied on the unit for orders (i.e. had blob squads or some such nearby), I'd take the medic. Otherwise, if they are just a glorified special weapons team, I'd take the carapace, 4th plasmagun and plasmapistol (eat 7 shots, sucker!).

I have a plasma pistol and caraspace armor (trying to figure out how to model it on and not look like crap) since I'm pretty much using my CCS as a better BS SWS atm. Seeing as my army rarely uses orders unless its BID against the odd MC (generally 'nid hilarity and a Blood Thirster) or the sole land raider I run into, they have little use other than another source of BS4, albeit at half strength compared to vets. As for the chimera getting blown, I always run them in at least pairs (preferably in trios since I currently have 6), so if need be I can dive into a new one. Admittedly, that will kill my shooting from them for the turn. Also, wouldn't the KO'd chimera provide at least some cover?

I run my CCS with 4 plas 1Plaspistol and carapace armor. With how you're supposed to roll each individually for overheating it seems if I lose any it's only 1

What you are all kind of missing is something I have had a lot of experience with. You drop that CCS out of that vendetta, they may have 20 guardsmen around them, but hell their not going to have many more.

25 guardsmen will last 2 turns on the front lines.

Jump out, toast a high value unit, die. War of attrition my friends! if you can kill their units at the same rate they kill yours, but yours are cheaper, they loose.


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FOREXAMPLE! If theres a trygon, you have a good chance of wounding it so badly that the next unit can finish it off. Do it, its worth the points.

Also only take medics in squads with advisors who needa survive, and always put them in a chimera. FNP saves them when the chimera asplodes .

In fact, they're probably going to come out with just 1 plasma gun

Which is the 4th plasmagun with the difference, that the enemy needs one more turn of attention to kill them off. And still, they didnt get the more important troop guys.

No, a 5-man squad of squishies is going to get squished if your opponent wants them squished - carapace, medic, or otherwise.

I say a 5 man squad of FNP-squishies will need MUCH attention to get squished. A grade of attention that you can preestimate in the game before you consider disembarking. And a medic gives you more opportunities to disembark without getting mowed down in response. Again, buying plasmaguns for shooting 1 round is foolish. Same to meltaguns and flamers. The damage is just too low compared to the points spent.

Yes, let the opponent get all hot under the collar over killing them. Every extra round of bolter fire the opponent has to expend killing the CCS, is one less fusillade fired at that veteran squad about to capture that objective, or two fewer melta shots at that vendetta about to deliver a SWS with demo charges.

exactly.

25 guardsmen will last 2 turns on the front lines.

so why is their place in the front lines? Why not killing out of a safe distance or clearing the 12"-zone properly?

War of attrition my friends! if you can kill their units at the same rate they kill yours, but yours are cheaper, they loose.

Combined arms my friend! If you can clear the resistance before the resistance kills you, you will win with no losses

Not as to jump in blind and get my head bitten off but everyones taking the cost of the medic purely against plasma burns, what about very rare event of your OPPONENT inflicting a wound, wouldnt it be good in that case to have FnP?

Just throwing an idea out there....

That would be what a chimera is for

I actually run a CCS with a medic and carapace armor in a chimera. I've recently upgraded this squad to include Straken since I was taking a plasma pistol and a power weapon anyways. Add in the 3 plasma guns and the squad draws a lot of firepower towards it. Straken with FNP is amazing. A regular commander with FNP is still amazing since he can bolster everyone around him with orders. Then again it comes down to how you play. If you want to ensure your units survive take a medic. If you want some extra defense take the carapace armor. Sure those points are the same as a regular infantry platoon squad with a melta gun (or a power sword for the sargeant). The fact is that you are protecting one of your major units. Also when you get nailed with a heavy flamer you still have a 50% chance of surviving.

danp164 wrote:what about very rare event of your OPPONENT inflicting a wound, wouldnt it be good in that case to have FnP?

Yes, it would help, but it's really not that tough to kill 5 guardsmen, FNP or not.

I hadn't considered Straken, though, where he might be useful. That would make his squad insanely expensive, though, so even then I don't think I'd do it.

Plus, you've got to remember that while you will ideally be able to combine arms, your opponent has something to say on the matter. To assume that you'll always be able to bring in a second or third plasma squad to help out is daring fate against a smart opponent, who will be spending their time making it so that you can't afford to do just that.

Times like these, the fact that a 4x plasma+plasma pistol CCS can take down a trygon in a single volley all by itself is priceless.

I have to agree with Aliaros 100% on this one. Medic for the purpose of saving plasma guns is a sucker's buy.

It has some other uses, but I don't think it is really ever a good buy. You pay 30 pts to lose a special weapon and make a 50pt sqd last at best twice as long. Why not just buy another squad? Maybe if you are trying to shield a special character, but never one short range/going to get the crap kicked out of it unit like plasma command.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Medic for the purpose of saving plasma guns is a sucker's buy.

Except its also useful if the Chimera explodes, or you get shot at with bolters and you happen to find yourself out of position/cover (your armour fails, your FNP doesn't). If your in cover it makes the squad very resilient indeed.

Let's take the good old Space Marine Tactical. 7 bolters, one BP at 12" away. 15 shots. 66% chance of a hit = 11 rounding up. 66% chance to wound = 7 rounding down. So if your out of cover that's pretty much a squad wipe without a medic. If you have the medic you suffer 3.5 wounds, still pretty bad, but it leaves the Officer alive to issue orders/retain the KP. If your in cover with a medic you suffer 1.25 wounds, which is more than acceptable for occupying an entire Tactical squad for one turn of shooting.

The medic is worth it. Note I didn't include the flamer/ML stats as the flamer is out of range, and I guess I assumed the ML moved with the Tactical to get to within RF range.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:It has some other uses, but I don't think it is really ever a good buy.

See above.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:You pay 30 pts to lose a special weapon and make a 50pt sqd last at best twice as long. Why not just buy another squad? Maybe if you are trying to shield a special character, but never one short range/going to get the crap kicked out of it unit like plasma command.

See above.

I get that IG have a 'there are always more' mentality, but in the case of the CCS you don't really. You have two. And they're precious due to their orders/special weapon loadouts. I prefer to look after the expensive units in my army, and mitigating plasma wounds/vehicle explosions/enemy fire via FnP is a damn good way to protect what is, in all fairness, quite an expensive inventment.

L. Wrex

@ Lycaeus Wrex

I said it had some other uses, but people taking it just for saving plasma guns are making a bad buy.

I also said it would increase the longevity of a squad, but really not anymore than simply deploying in cover (which is free!). Sure there are things that ignore cover, there are also things that ignore FNP.

In most cases, especially if the squad is in a chimera (which the plasma squads should be) the medic is a waste. Either you never get out/never take any fire and you are better off with more plasma guns OR you get out and then likely die (with or without a medic).

And as Aliaros already said, you are only going to get one, maybe two rapid fire plasma shots a game. For a non scoring unit you are better throwing out more plasma shots, and for cheaper too.

Ailaros wrote:

danp164 wrote:what about very rare event of your OPPONENT inflicting a wound, wouldnt it be good in that case to have FnP?

Yes, it would help, but it's really not that tough to kill 5 guardsmen, FNP or not.

This is my point, to kill 5 guardsmen if they dont have carapace armour takes one round of shooting from a tac squad (Assuming the CCS isnt in cover) to eliminate the lot of them, no saves, no chance, zip nada, dead. All the space marine player has had to do is look at them funny, at least with FnP the SM player might be inclined to put some effort in.

@Irdiumstern

Thats what a chimera is for?

To provide an armour 12 box that will probably not last a turn of open fire before exploding and possibly killing the people it was supposed to be protecting?

Dont get me wrong my IG army is still small and growing but I dont understand this inane love of chimeras, its a nice tank with a nice gun, but for mobility sake we can already use orders to move infantry 12" on ont he almost garunteed certainty that the chimera bites it, the chance of it exploding and killing your own men is worryingly high with a 5+ armour save.

Maybe im still thinking with a 4th ed mindset but to me chimeras seem less like a taxi and more like a death trap...

rogueeyes wrote:I actually run a CCS with a medic and carapace armor in a chimera. I've recently upgraded this squad to include Straken since I was taking a plasma pistol and a power weapon anyways. Add in the 3 plasma guns and the squad draws a lot of firepower towards it. Straken with FNP is amazing. A regular commander with FNP is still amazing since he can bolster everyone around him with orders. Then again it comes down to how you play. If you want to ensure your units survive take a medic. If you want some extra defense take the carapace armor. Sure those points are the same as a regular infantry platoon squad with a melta gun (or a power sword for the sargeant). The fact is that you are protecting one of your major units. Also when you get nailed with a heavy flamer you still have a 50% chance of surviving.

Hmm, I field Straken as well, although I usually like having a standard around, since Straken means close combat squads, and even Ld9 is not infallible.

Giving his squad a bunch of plasma guns is not something I've seen before. One of his great strengths is how much he can tear stuff up in combat (especially when backing up a blob and engaging the enemy unit where the power fist can't get to him), and rapid fire weapons kind of preclude that. I usually give his squad a pair of meltaguns, as that also makes him squad damn good at tank hunting.


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danp164 wrote:
Dont get me wrong my IG army is still small and growing but I dont understand this inane love of chimeras, its a nice tank with a nice gun, but for mobility sake we can already use orders to move infantry 12" on ont he almost garunteed certainty that the chimera bites it, the chance of it exploding and killing your own men is worryingly high with a 5+ armour save.

Maybe im still thinking with a 4th ed mindset but to me chimeras seem less like a taxi and more like a death trap...

Explosion is not that likely if you really look at the odds breakdown of the damage chart. A unit in a chimera is far far far far far far far more survivable than one that's trying to run around in the open, even accounting for the (small) risk of an explosion. Chimeras are magnificent because they are dirt cheap, tough with AV12, and have two great weapons. There are very few better buys at 55 points.

So yes, you are very much stuck in 4th edition.

seriously, why are we looking at a single situation of a single tac squad shooting at them once they've bailed out of a chimera perfectly in tact?

Even with carapace AND a medic, you're STILL not as durable as space marines. How difficult do you think it is to kill 5 marines? In my book, that's pretty darn easy. I don't foresee opponents having much problem with this either.

Paying 50 extra points to lower a squad's firepower and make it a 50 point bigger loss when it gets wiped out by a single shot from a vindicator or a single charge by a dreadnought seems like a poor idea to me.