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Alright, 2 lists I'm considering for an upcoming tournament, which is a better choice:

H.Q.

Daemon Prince
Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Warptime -175

Daemon Prince
Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Warptime -175

Troops

Plague Marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Melta Guns, Icon, Rhino -261

Plague Marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Melta Guns, Icon, Rhino -261

Plague Marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Plasma Guns, Icon, Rhino -271

Plague Marines 7x
2x Plasma, Icon, Rhino -231

Summoned Lesser Daemons 7x -91

Summoned Lesser Daemons 7x -91

Heavy Support

Vindiccator
Daemonic Possession -145

Vindiccator
Daemonic Possession -145

Total: 1846

Or

H.Q.

Daemon Prince
Mark of Nurgle, Wings, Warptime -175

Summoned Greater Daemon -100

Typhus -225

Elites

Chaos Terminators 4x
Mark of Nurgle, Champion with 2x Lightning Claws, 1 Chain Fist, 1 Power Fist/Heavy Flamer, Standard -210

Troops

Plague Marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Melta Guns, Icon, Rhino -261

Plague Marines 7x
Champion with Power Fist, 2x Melta Guns, Icon, Rhino -261

Plague Marines 7x
2x Plasma Guns, Rhino -226

Summoned Lesser Daemons 7x -91

Heavy Support

Vindiccator
Daemonic Possession, Twin Linked Bolter -150

Vindiccator
Daemonic Possession, Twin Linked Bolter -150

Total: 1849

It's hard not to love six scoring units.

The main weakness of either list is lack of ranged anti-tank, but the first list also covers for that better with the pair of warp time princes and the greater amount of melta & plasma guns.

So I'd say the first list is definitely stronger.

The second list looks like a playable and fun change of pace, and potentially a viable option in a tournament with strong comp & painting scores, where it being less optimized earns you points, and it has a greater variety of units to create more visual interest and let the painter show off a bit more.

Go with no 1 because even if comp was involved they gotta hold punches going against csm

I think list one is much better suited for play in a tournament.

The main thing that puts me off of the second list is the lack of a land raider for the terminators and typhus to ride in. I don't like deep striking in that big squad and really don't like the idea of making them walk up the field. I'm all for small three man termicide squads but a full sized squad need a ride.

I'm not sure if the tournament is comped or not; however, I don't think it'll be nicked heavily in comparison to Obliterator heavy lists and the like.

My biggest concern lies in dealing with large amounts of armor (I.e. IG and Razorspam). I was thinking of pushing up with Vindicators while firing with Plague Marines and possibly deep striking about 18" from the armor and then diving in head first next turn.

What do you all think?

I think the terms could work, theres no probable cause for you to not be able to auto hit your DS within 6" of an icon. If typhus is a terminator (sorry not a CSM player) and he can DS with the squad then it could be a very scary unit. T5 terms assaulting next turn? gives them another target to think about anyways.

U_M, that sounds like a fine plan to me. Against a really shooty mech army, you really need to drive in as fast as possible and start assaulting. Don't be afraid to charge multiple vehicles with one squad, either; krak grenades are perfectly capable of killing Razors and Chimerae. With list 1 I wouldn't bother deep striking. Have the princes use the Rhinos for cover saves and just go full bore ahead.

John, I think the termies CAN work; their biggest weakness is that it's a lot of points spent on a unit that's really not going to do anything until (at the earliest) turn 3, and turn 4 or late in half your games. If you're going to deep strike terminators, it's usually best to give them a bunch of combi-weapons to best ensure they do some damage the turn they show up, and you usually want them relatively inexpensive so you're not too shorthanded if they show up late.

I think the Terminators with Typhus would work out best at 2000 points because they could safely ride around in a Land Raider while maintaining the overall integrity of the force. I've had mixed results Deep Striking Typhus and friends ranging from them destroying ~12-15 Boyz in the shooting phase and then wiping them out after they were assaulted by said Boyz, down to them being vaporized by a single well placed Demolisher cannon (shot scattered 9" straight back onto them).

I'll probably go with the first list, may possibly drop 1 pack of Daemons to sprinkle in some Combi-weapon love; however, I don't really think it'll be necessary.

Well, three PM units will generally suffice.
However, I don't like your HS. Its too short ranged. I'd take 3 Predators if possible.

Problem with Predators is 2 fold for me:

1) They don't appeal to my "Vaporize everything policy". For me, the Vindicator brngs many things to the table such as Deathstar destroyer as well as very effective anti-tank.

2) I'm slightly fluffy with these guys and the Short range of the Vindicator appeals to that side.

I'll get chewed up by fast Mech like Dark Eldar and Eldar; however, they have to come to me sometime :-).

take the first list, drop the daemons and icons for more plague marines and take winds of chaos on the DP no armor or cover is a very hard thing to argue over. plus tournaments are going to be 75% marines (BA and space wolves are in the top 3).

warptime is just a selfish power. you already hit and wound most stuff on 3s and 2s with little chance of getting hurt yourself. only time it is needed is vs nidzilla, in which case, you can nuke them with winds of chaos and then assault for the kill)

Winds is appealing to me as it has been helpful for thinnin our hordes, Pathfinders and Long Fangs...I may consider it. The biggest draw for Warptime is for instances where I REALLLY need to kill something (Flat out Wave Serpents, Cruising Speed Land Raiders, etc.). Almost every attack needs to hit home in these cases and also in the Instances of Deathstars I may run into, again, making everyhit counts...granted Winds could help mitigate that with jacking everyone up on a 4+.

What are other peoples thoughts for Winds of Chaos Vs. Warptime?

Dropping the Icons and Lesser Daemons is...thought provoking as well. My only concern is that 5 Plague Marine units would be somewhat cumbersome to wield and having Deep Striking Objective holders is extremely helpful; especially in instances where I need to get to those cross board objectives in a pinch.

Again, does anyone else agree with more Plague Marines?

Have to say this will be a big change from my norm of Space Wolves so the more input I get, the more appreciative I am.

I would use the first list, but keep the third plaguemarine squad doublemelta too, as youre already quite light on AT. You're princes should be able to deal with any nasty stuff that shows up, and if they cant 2 plasmaguns arent gonna help. And keep warptime on your princes, its FAR more useful than a glorified flamer will ever prove.

I was thinking the light AT could be mitigated by the Daemon Princes; however, a little more melta never hurt.

I had another Brain fart of an idea: What if I dropped one pack of Lesser Daemons and made the Princes Mark of Tzeentch with Winds and Warptime while making the last Plague squad have champion with Power Fist?

Breaks the fluff but it makes the Princes a little more nastier with re-rolling to wound on Winds...thoughts?

I am gonna disagree here.

It's my firm belief that Plague Marines should be always equipped with 2 Plasma guns. Now with AV13-4 aside, because it's not happening outside of LRs/LemanRuss, plasma is your best bet for anti-tank. Yes melta provides you with an extra d6 for pen, but that's at 6" range. I don't trust myself entirely with commiting a unit equipped with anti-tank to CC unless it's a guarentee or necessary. Not that I'm afraid of PMs dieing, I just don't want them tied up in CC.

With 2 Plasma guns you can have your marines still in their rhino shooting 4 shots rapid fire at 12". 3 hits. Against AV11 you'll get 1-2 glances and 1 pen on most rolls. You've completed the mission and your men are still inside a tincan and outside of assault/firing next turn.
Plague Marines also have the best chance to survive against overheating. Roll a 1, fail your armor....you still have FnP. You aren't gonna blow yourself up everytime you shoot 99% of the time using Plasma, which is an awesome feeling that no-one else gets to enjoy.

Outside of that I would also agree with using the first list. While a GD is awesome, that DP is gonna be a too much of a benifit to sacrifice for typhus and a GD.

Try using your DPs to shield your rhinos instead of the rhinos to shield them. Eternal Warrior and 4(?) wounds means that's alot of consentrated fire to bring down just one, expecially with mark of nurgle.

With regards to the Melta/Plasma Switch...I'm going to have to play that one by ear based on what I see of the competition in the coming days(gonna see what its like this weekend).

Now, in terms of keeping the Daemon Princes in front of the Rhinos to shield them...yeah, not gonna happen. Ever see what 15 Missile Launchers can do to 8 Wounds, even with a 5+ Invuln? (because they sure as hell won't get cover if they're in front of the Rhino) I'd rather lose 2 Rhinos first turn than 2 Daemon Princes.

Depends on what you're facing. Up here no-one is packing 15 missiles because no-one is packing that much mech, and no-one here plays puppies to pack that many missiles.

I only suggest it because my friend plays chaos, and I've seen his DP take I don't know how many lascannons, shrug it off, and proceed to get angry in the backfield. I'm not saying stick them in the middle of a field, but if the DP is in cover, with the rhino behind him, they're not shooting the rhino, and even if he's hit he has cover to rely on and I doubt you're gonna be facing hunters in your tourny.

Then again this is coming from the guy who played a 3500 point apoc tourny the other day with only infantry and won through sheer ballsyessness (it's a word) at the end of Turn5 (BTW next Apoc you do take a Disruptor Beacon....hilarious when you plant them down on the middle of no-where), so take using the DP as cover with a grain of salt, it might work or it might blow-up in your face.

Yeah, to each their own local play style...there's a group of guys who keep a constant vigil with their devestators/long fans as we have a lot of monstrous creatures in the area that they want to drop fast.

Wind of Chaos is cool, but Warp Time is much more important to keep the DP from having "whiff" turns and make him able to reliably hit fast moving vehicles. The Wind + Warp Time Tzeentch Prince is pretty good, but substantially more expensive and generally less durable due to T5. I don't think it's worth breaking your theme for, especially as all your infantry are good at jumping on squads trying to hide in cover.

@Mannahnin

What do you think of the idea of dropping one of the Lesser Daemon units for more kit for the Plague Marine units? Do you think this would be fattening them up too much or would it be appropriate?

What kind of extra kit are you thinking of? A champ for the one unit that's missing one? I'm sure it'd work fine, but I really like the two units of LDs. Gives you more flexibility.

Dropping the LD's for mot and wind on the dp's I cant argue with. could defienlty buy you alot mmore kill power to deal with units heading for objectives than one pack of demons could. switching out one set of plasma to bring you up to 6 meltas defienlty not a bad idea either. lets you be a little more flexible with what your pm's can deal with and what you can send the dp's in to completley smash. Always useful to have meltas break a transport and have the dp mmunch on the gooey bits riding inside.

@Mannahnin

In terms of kit, I was thinking of Champion with Fist and then Combi weapons for all of the champions. That would eat up about 80 points.

@Titankiller

I'm probably going to end up doing about 8 games, 2 with each of the following variants and see which I like more:

A) Leaving the list as is
B) Dropping the plasma for Melta on squad 3
C) Dropping lesser daemons for buffed Princes
D) Dropping lesser daemons for buffed Plagues

Sounds like a good plan, as you said it all comes dow to what the competition brings as to what will be your most optimized solution.

As I said, I'm sure it'd be good, but for my money I think I'd rather have the extra scoring unit.

Daemons are useless the turn they come in. The point value is a joke when you compare them to your real troop choices which are among the most broken in the game. Plague marines and thousand sons have ridiculous survivability rates. The daemons may have invuls but it's a 5+ and they will be easy targets.

Consider you WILL see thunderwolves, jump pack BA, and ig tank spam. The top 3. (dark eldar has a good chance of showing up now too)

all of these will make a mockery of the lesser daemons under rapid fire shots.

Uh, part of the point of summoned lesser daemons is that they CAN assault the turn they arrive. They put a hurt on or kill most non-pain-tokened DE units, can tie up and put a few wounds on small marine units, can tarpit dreadnoughts & monstrous creatures, can but a couple of Glances on a light vehicle, and most importantly can hold objectives while your more expensive stuff does the main fighting. Going to ground in cover they get a 3+ cover save, and they're fearless.

Take the list without terminators.
Know why?
Because they suck
tehe. =p

Yeah the whole Lesser Daemons suck argument isn't gonna fly here...they've paid off WAY too many times and what the hell else am I going to do with the points? Add another Vindicator? No thanks, I'd rather keep the flexibility.

Besides, the armies and units you've listed more than likely will have bigger threats than some Lesser Daemons...if they are worried about them, then I failed overall and should sell my models...

@Shaggy

...that comment is about as useful as a ripped condom on prom night...

I agree. Lesser Daemons are a amazing tool for holding objectives outside of your opponents weapon range.
And being fearless going to ground will make it all the harder to get them off.

@Post above me.
Its true. They're too expensive, don't have the wargear (atleast good) options that imperial termies do, and almost NEED an expensive , not crusader pattern , landraider without power of the machine spirit. =[