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Still playing around with the models that I have, at least put together.

L: Dreadlord - dragon, armor of darkness, pendant of khaeleth, ogre blade = 560

H: Master - BSB, cold one, HA, shield, SDC, lance, Hydra banner = 214
H: Death Hag - cauldron of blood = 200
H: Sorceress - level 2, tome of furion, dispel scroll = 175

C: 20x crossbowmen - shields, command = 240
C: 12x dark riders - repeater crossbows, musician = 271

S: 11x cold one knights - command, standard of Hag Graef = 332

R: Hydra = 175
R: Hydra = 175


Total = 2342

It leaves me with 158 points that I need to spend in core pretty much. I was thinking about just putting it all into the crossbowmen. Honestly, I don't like the list. I feel like I am going in too many directions. I think my lord is too expensive, I have too many heroes, my magic is weak, the core needs work (maybe one unit of 30 xbowmen and 2 units of dark riders), and my cold one knights will go stupid. At least my hydras are the right choice. I should just find a theme I want to do and go with it. Maybe my fast MSU monster theme cannot cut it anymore, but I should be able to make something work. Any help or ideas would be appreciated.

Haven't we taught you better than this?

I'm just kidding, of course! I agree the list does seem to be going off in too many directions, none of which I think are the best way to go. I don't really understand things like the non-BSB Cauldron that doesn't have anything that needs its support, the 6x2 block of Riders, or the pointsink Knights that are already I6 so you're paying for the lizards to strike early.

Dragonlord: Why Armor of Darkness? He already gets a 2+ from Mundane gear and a 1+ against shooting, Armor of Darkness isn't worth the magic points. Ogre Blade is nice, but it sure is expensive. How many things that you fight need S6 against it AND last more than a round in combat against your dragonlord? A basic or magical Lance (for those darn ethereal Slaans) might do you better. Bee very careful with this guy. Some basic unit Champion can issue a challenge to him and since your Lord will murder him before your Dragon can attack, you will not get full overkill and could lose to static combat resolution.

Master: 214 points just to give Knights another attack? 214 + 200 + 332 all for one unit... You're begging for your opponent to stick walls of steadfast chaff infantry in your way or to just nuke the heck out of it.

Death Hag: The only thing you'd bother blessing is the Knights, but then that's another 200 points for the sake of something that's already a pointsink.

Sorceress: I don't dislike her, but what are you wanting her to do? What lore do you plan on taking?

Crossbowmen: Why the Champion? +1 BS for two out of 40 shots? Save the points.
Dark Riders: Ouch. At best I could see a unit, maybe two, of five Riders for harassment and War Machine hunting. One big block of them means that's a T3 5+ save unit begging for pincushions and easy points for your opponent. While it could be fun to Vanguard up and get a first turn flank charge with the lot of them, that's a long shot.

Cold One Knights: Not a fan of these guys, I much prefer Chariots due to maneuverability and increased effectiveness of Impact hits (denies parry saves). The smaller footprint on the Chariot also means you can target specific parts of large units, like avoiding that Plague Furnace you ran into. One good-sized block of Infantry can hold up this unit even with its extra attacks. Anything that causes wounds that ignore armor instantly puts this big block to death.

Hydras: A saving grace of the list, but I don't think the rest of your army supports even this.

I don't think the Dark Elf monster list is dead, but I do think it needs a bit more tweaking than this to be fully realized.

i have been playing dark elves now for 3 months and played over 15 games so far, in my games, i tend to like a dreadlord on foot or on a cheap cold one, i like the lv 4 wizard with either death or shadow and a lv 2 with dark.

S: 11x cold one knights - command, standard of Hag Graef = 332

get rid of this unit, way to over priced, i personally try one big group of wyches or 2 smaller units of 10 , or sub it out for black guard

i really enjoy the repeater crossbows, they are lethal and so i double up on them

dark riders, meh,

like i said, a lvl 4 with death , sac dagger is deadly, esp when you solo target a lot of their high value options

Alright, scratch that first list. I am now trying to focus on a monster theme.

L: Dreadlord - dragon, lance, HA, shield, SDC, pendant of khaeleth = 516 (didn't realize that ridden monsters gave +1 to AS)

H: Master - manticore, lance, HA, shield, SDC, ring of darkness, dragonbane gem = 339
H: Sorceress - dark pegasus, level 2, tome of furion, dispel scroll = 225

C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Corsairs w/ hand weapon and hand bow, musician, and standard = 215

S: 5 x Shades w/ additional hand weapon = 85
S: 5 x Cold one Knights = 135 (I understand that chariots are better, but these are put together and I really don't care for the chariot model)

R: Hydra = 175
R: Hydra = 175

Total = 2500

I think I like this one better, but I think I have too many units that can't break ranks. Maybe the 80 repeater crossbowmen shots can thin out the enemy. Anyway, I am still open to suggestions. Thanks.

This is starting to look good. Much better than the first list.

I personally would take another lvl 2 instead of the master but thats just me. You should also look at the Pegasus for your master, that way it can't be shot out from under him.

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking of trying to squeeze another sorceress in there, but didn't have the room. I like having the dragon and manticore in the army. They seem more monster"y" to me. Maybe I should trade the magic items between the dreadlord and master? It might make it harder to shoot the dragon out from under him. The first time I was making this list I had a unit of dark riders instead of two of the units of harpies, but was planning on keeping one unit of harpies escorting the sorceress. Do you think one unit of dark riders and a unit of shades is enough to harass and hunt or should I keep it with all harpies?

Yes I do think it is enough to hunt but it not harass as it would be simple to defeat with the correct tactic so use them but be carefull that is my advice.Of course you don't have to listen to me but keep it in mind.

I think I will try the dark riders then. In my head, I think they would want the shades and dark riders to do their advance scouting instead of trusting harpies, even if they have an affinity towards monsters. I also think the extra shooting could prove useful. I also convinced myself to leave the ring and gem on the master/manticore. So it will look like this.

L: Dreadlord - dragon, lance, HA, shield, SDC, pendant of khaeleth = 516

H: Master - manticore, lance, HA, shield, SDC, ring of darkness, dragonbane gem = 339
H: Sorceress - dark pegasus, level 2, tome of furion, dispel scroll = 225

C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 5 x Dark riders w/ crossbows = 110
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Corsairs w/ hand weapon and hand bow, musician, and standard = 215

S: 5 x Shades w/ additional hand weapon = 85
S: 5 x Cold one Knights = 135 (I understand that chariots are better, but these are put together and I really don't care for the chariot model)

R: Hydra = 175
R: Hydra = 175

Total = 2500

Any glaring problems I should change?

Let's see...

Dragon? Check.

Magic? A little light here, but with DP she gets some extra protection and maneuverability. Have you considered a Focus Familiar so she can hide behind terrain and cast around it?

Manuever Control? All sorts of check! Shades, harpies, and Dark Riders all have their uses, and you have all three. Go wild!

Shooting? Check! LOTS of RXBs to weaken the opposition.

Close Combat? Check. Hydras and COK to crush whatever makes it through. And the sheilded RXBs stand ready to hold the line as needed.


And with FOUR big scary monsters to draw fire, there's a pretty good chance that 2-3 of them are going to make in into combat. I think this should do well.

Thanks for the feedback. At the time, I was thinking about focus familiar, but wanted to make sure I kept my points down to start. (I wanted to make sure I had the points for the manticore and never ended up going back). I could change my cold one knights into a "manticore" chariot. (I hear when you clip the wings from a manticore it is no longer uncontrollable, but just stupid. I could then use the HE chariot)
With the points I could go with focus familiar instead of tome of furion and pick up 2 more harpies. I kind of like that idea . That means I would have to buy the chariot though and I am saving my pennies for a WoC army.

The list is looking good, I think you should give it a go and see how you like it!

I'm going to write up a monster mash list, too, but will probably go a little differently in certain areas. The Ultraforge Dragon and the Raging Heroes Manticore are just too much temptation.

Those are some awesome models.

I forgot to ask what everyone thought about the corsairs. I thought they fit the monster theme the best (or witches to go with harpies, but I don't have any witches). Do you think hand weapon and handbow is a good combo? Or go the additional hand weapon route? I figured I could move to within 8" and shoot, then use my stand and shoot before reforming for combat. I should probably reform before combat actually. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

I'd always, always go for the additional hand weapon. I'd also try to make room for the Sea Serpent Standard (hint: Scroll) to get them a mean 3 attacks a piece. This makes them more similar to Witches in their damage output, they just trade Poison and Armor Piercing for an armor save.

I could see running the Corsairs as 7x3 with Handbows, but it would be an awkward unit since their goal is not to charge but to get very close and shoot. I'm not entirely sure that's a better way of dealing within things than pure combat since it leaves you open to being hit by return firepower and magic while you're not in combat.

Something more like this then.

L: Dreadlord - dragon, lance, HA, shield, SDC, pendant of khaeleth = 516

H: Master - manticore, lance, HA, shield, SDC, ring of darkness, dragonbane gem = 339
H: Sorceress - dark pegasus, level 2, focus familiar, dispel scroll = 235

C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 5 x Dark riders w/ crossbows = 110
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Corsairs w/ hand weapon and hand bow, musician, and standard w/ frenzy banner = 240

S: 5 x Shades w/ additional hand weapon = 85
S: 5 x Cold one chariot = 100 (would use the clipped manticore idea)

R: Hydra = 175
R: Hydra = 175

Total = 2500

What would you use as the Manticore for your Cold One Chariot? I mean, if you are considering using a High Elf chariot you can just pick up two Cold Ones since they line up just fine. I'm sure it'd be less expensive and match better than the Manticore.

I'm not so sure I'd combine the Handbows and the Frenzy banner since you'd have to pass a Leadership check not to charge whatever it is you wanted to get close enough to shoot. That's certainly an idea though, give it a shot and see how you like it!

Shooting corsairs are ok. Since they don't take the -1 for moving or range, their shooting is actually decent.

Combine that with swift reform and you can pump out 40 S3 armor piercing shots (hitting on 4's) followed up with 40 more shots, hitting on 5's on a stand and fire.

~33 S3 armor piercing hits will put a major dent in a lot of units.

The FAQ rewrites the 2nd paragraph, but it's the first one that lets them ignore movement and range.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:Shooting corsairs are ok. Since they don't take the -1 for moving or range, their shooting is actually decent.

Combine that with swift reform and you can pump out 40 S3 armor piercing shots (hitting on 4's) followed up with 40 more shots, hitting on 5's on a stand and fire.

~33 S3 armor piercing hits will put a major dent in a lot of units.

The FAQ rewrites the 2nd paragraph, but it's the first one that lets them ignore movement and range.

-Matt

The problem with handbows is the range. Sure you can put out lots of shots, but with charge ranges being longer its a rarity (at least in my area) to get more than a stand and shoot reaction out of them.

I've been trying to figure out how to make the Dragon lord work in 8th. This list looks solid.

The Chariot is fairly easy to make from a HE + CoK bits. I had spare corsairs around so i have two of them driving it.

That was my original thinking with the handbows and getting all those shots. I figured 2 rounds of 40 shots was better than the extra cc attack. However, when I changed the list, I forgot to change it to two hand weapons on them. I did it in my head just not on the list.

My initial thought was just using the white lions w/ some modifications and a new paint job to look like young/clipped manticores, but I do have some extra cold one knights and corsairs laying around.

The guys on Druchii.net have been expirementing with units of 30 RHB Corsairs in horde formation with the SSS. The general idea is that it expands their radius of effect by 8" while still leaving a fairly formidible melee capability. Not sure how it works out on the board, I haven't had any chances to play lately.

In theory, that should work great. Get to within 8" for 40 shots (or 50, does the 3rd rank get half of their shots, no where near the book and going from rumors I remember) then another 40 shots with stand and shoot. For cc, you are only losing 10 str 3 attacks. You would have 40 attacks as opposed to 50 attacks. Those 80 shots should make up the difference.

Nice list. When you play it give us some updates on how it fares.

Can a sorceress have several arcane items(dispel and familiar)? I thought you only could have one...

Good catch Solbo. I will have to change that out, thanks. Do you have any suggestions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
L: Dreadlord - dragon, lance, HA, shield, SDC, pendant of khaeleth = 516

H: Master - manticore, lance, HA, shield, SDC, ring of darkness, dragonbane gem = 339
H: Sorceress - dark pegasus, level 2, focus familiar, dispel scroll = 235

C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 5 x Dark riders w/ crossbows = 110
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Corsairs w/ hand weapon and hand bow, musician, and standard w/ frenzy banner = 240

S: 5 x Shades w/ additional hand weapon = 85
S: 5 x Cold one chariot = 100 (would use the clipped manticore idea)

R: Hydra = 175
R: Hydra = 175

Total = 2500

So I have to fix the sorceress build. Not really sure what to do, any suggestions? I was thinking maybe just dropping the scroll and making the master a BSB.

@Kirbinator, I was just going to use the lions but maybe greenstuff some stumps on their shoulders and paint them to look like maticores instead of white lions. I guess I would have to modify their tails some too.

Well I would say Drop the Focus Familiar. The lvl 2 is on a Peg so the extra range really isn't as necessary for her. Also what lore are you going (sorry If its been mentioned before).

This is especially true if your using lore of Shadow, Dark or Metal. If you go death the Focus Familiar is more useful due to the shorter spell ranges.

I was planning on shadow or dark probably. I was thinking more on the lines of hiding the sorceress behind something and using the familiar to look around corners, but not even sure how viable that is. I guess I should be able to hide fairly well anyway and with a dragon and manticore flying around, she probably will not be as high of a priority. Do you think I should make the master a BSB then?

Not having a BSB is risky, there are few armies that don't benefit from them.

However to get one you probably have to drop the maticore which is a shame. I would try it without the BSB for a bit, and then add it in later if you need it.

Also another item you may want to look at is the good old Ring of Hotek. You only have 1 lvl 2 to worry about and lack magic defense.

Is there a reason I need to lose the manticore if I make him a BSB, other than making him an even bigger target?

Also, I am not sure where to put the ring of Hotek. I wanted it in there, but also wanted to try the ring of darkness. That just brought my attention to the fact that I have two talismans on the master.

Looks like I need more help on these hero builds. Any suggestions?

You can just drop the dragonbane gem on the manticore. The only time I'd worry about it is in combination with the regeneration armor.

Well, im not sure how effective it is to have a bsb flying all about. The units that will neee it is the infantery blocks and that could be problematic as the bsb is somewhere on the other side of the table. And if you try to keep him back trying to provide bsb for everone, hes jusy gonna be a huge waste of points. Maybe get some more cavalry which can keep up and even support with flank charges ect. I like the idea of lots of tough monsters, too bad hydras dont have fly. Good luck

A few tweaks.


L: Dreadlord - dragon, lance, HA, shield, SDC, pendant of khaeleth = 516

H: Master - manticore, lance, HA, shield, SDC, ring of darkness, BSB = 359
H: Sorceress - dark pegasus, level 2, dispel scroll, dragonbane gem = 215

C: 5 x Harpies = 55
C: 5 x Dark riders w/ crossbows = 110
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Repeater crossbowmen w/ shields and musician and standard = 235
C: 20 x Corsairs w/ hand weapon and hand bow, musician, and standard w/ frenzy banner = 240

S: 5 x Shades w/ additional hand weapon = 85
S: Cold one chariot = 100

R: Hydra = 175
R: Hydra = 175

Total = 2500

I figured I would go with the manticore BSB for now. I figure I am fine staying out of combat with my blocks for a while and when he is needed he has a 20" move and an 18" hold your ground range. I just threw the dragonbane gem on the sorceress because I could. I am wondering if I need someone with magical attacks though.