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Dante is non-negotiable I know he isn't cost effective but I love using him. That being said I'm willing to tweak anything else in the list for the better so I appreciate any tips on how to make the list better.

HQ
Dante-225
Honour Guard(JP,3xMelta,SS,Chapter Banner)-245

Elites
Sanguinary Priestx2(JP)-150
Sanguinary Priest-50

Troops
Assault Squadx10(Melta,Melta,PF)-235
Assault Squadx10(Melta,Melta,PF)-235

Fast Attack
Vanguard Vetsx5(JP,LCx2,SSx2)-220

Heavy Support
Dev Squadx5(4xML)-130

That leaves me ten points to play with. Plan is Dante and HG tactical precision in and pop the biggest armored threat, devs sit in the backfield with a priest popping krak missiles at mech or frag at infantry. VVS Heroic Intervention in and tie up an enemy squad, while the Assault Squads DoA onto objectives or behind a vulnerable unit in KP games. C&C appreciated!

Seems a little troops lite, rather swap out the honor guard for another assault. Also foot priest doesnt look like he'll contribute much. VV might want to have a fist also for anti tank/MC

Hmm 20 troops too little for 1500 points? Keep in mind I can combat squad one to cover two objectives. The fist in the Vet squad isn't a bad idea, I will probably spend the last 10 points upgrading the lightning claw on the VVS Sarge to a PF.

So that leaves the HG thing, I could either keep them or drop them for another dual melta assault squad. I lose a priest, one meltas, a SS and a banner, I gain 5 more bodies and a PF. It's something to think about for sure, do you think a 10 man Assault Squad will outperform an HG?

I wouldn't bother with the Foot Priest, if you are worried about the Devs dying then just deploy a JP Priest with them and have him run forward to join up with everyone when they arrive. As it is you probably have too many FNP bubbles anyway, the HG have one as well which is more than enough to cover this sized list.

20 Troops is fine for 1500pts when they all have FNP. If you wanted more scoring units you could change the HG for Sanguinary Guard with Infernus Pistols, it does the same job (and can reliably get range thanks to Dante) and is scoring. Otherwise I would change up the HG so that they have a better shooting loadout (drop the Chapter Banner probably).

I would probably remove the Storm Shields from the Vanguard, they aren't going to stick around long even with them. Better bet to take some form of tank busting capability like a power fist.

The only real issues I have with this list is that there is basically no redundancy, but thats mostly a limitation of being a 1500pt list.

Put the last priest in a JP, switch Vets with a SG.

That would scare me. Dante + priest + SG 0.o

I play a DoA army with dante as well, mine is 1850 and has worked pretty well.

what I use is:
Dante
Libbie with shield and blood lance
honor guard, SS (helpful for wound allocation), and a few meltas
3 sang priests with JPs
3 assault squads, full ten men with PF, and 2 meltas
1 5 man assault squad with PF and flamer
7 Vanguard vets with serg with thunder hammer, a PF, and some meltabombs.

The point of a DoA list (to me anyway) is to have lots of small 5 man squads roaming around with melta, that way you can shoot a great many tanks at the same turn, as well as really have a lot of mobility since they all have Jp and there are a lot of targets on the field for the enemy to focus on.

Your list is okay so far, you can't have those devs, they are not good in this list, same with the land JP, they will just got blown off the board, your anti tank lies in melta assault squads, and your anti-infantry is combat and the occassional flamer. I like your honor guard, wouldn't use a banner, and would put in a SS for wound allocation since ive noticed dante attracts a lot of ap 2 pie plates. I would also get a libbie with blood lance since it can shoot at a different unit than the unit the libbie is attached to. Put dante with libbie and meltahonorguard and have them knock out a bunch of tanks.

your vanguard vets are expensive, i would not use all taht wargear. I find you want more bodies in that squad, so keep it from 5 to 7. Then you need to give it a focus. Mine is for tank hunting, that one turn assault is helpful since i play a lot of guard armies and i need to knock out tanks fast, and a lot of them! You seem to be going agianst infantry. the issue here is that giving them lots of gear is expensive, and to be honest you don't always want to kill the unit you attack. You really want to lock into combat so that you don't have that unit get blasted to kingdom come which happens a lot to those types of unit. I would give them only one "special" close combat weapon, and then gear up the sergeant if you want. That should be enough to give a hurting if you need to, but also to allow you to get locked into a simple assault to avoid enemies shooting phase.

hope that helps, im still working on my DoA army list, but these are my thoughts from my games with it. i love dante btw, just the lack of scatter is worth his points.

Only problem I have with Sang guard is the point cost with lack of invulnerable save. They deepstrike in and have to survive a round of shooting, and they scare everyone so much that they tend to draw all kinds of AP2 AP1 fire. I have yet to have a successful experience with them

I don't use sang guard, i tried with them and they really got trashed. They are not helpful

@Sageheart: I know the Devs lack mobility and all, but they are worth the long range anti-tank they supply. I never bothered with them until a recent game with DE. My opponent would flat out with his ravangers moving 24" one turn, move 12" next and unload dissitegrators into my assault squads cauing instant death and staying out of melta range thanks to night shields.

Regardless it showed me having Devs sitting in the backfield can not hurt. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say land JP? Everything I have minus the Devs would be DoA. Based on your advice I have tweaked the list!

HQ
Dante-225
Honour Guard(JP,3xMelta,SS)-215
Librarian(JP,Blood Lance, FotD)-125
Elites
Sanguinary Priestx2(JP)-150

Troops
Assault Squadx10(Melta,Melta,PF)-235
Assault Squadx10(Melta,Melta,PF)-235

Fast Attack
Vanguard Vetsx5(JP,LCx1,SSx1)-185

Heavy Support
Dev Squadx5(4xML)-130

Just threw FotD as the second power for the Libby, Dante already rerolls to hit anyway and the chance to run an enemy threat off the table makes me happy . The librarian adds the psychic defense I was lacking, and now the squads are more point effective.

Not to be rude, but they aren't worth the long range anti-tank. If they are the only unit out then they are bound to get torn apart by all your opponent's shooting which has nothing else to shoot at! you are better off having more assault squads with meltas. I see your example with DE, but think about an IG army, they will most likely blast that unit before it can really do anything. I don't see them as being very good in this list since they will be the only ones on the board. I've never had luck having none DoA units in a DoA list, besides outflanking scouts sometimes, or land speeders. But if you have luck with them keep them, I just don't think they will be able to live for very long against many lists.

I've never used FoTD, tell me how that goes, I always use shield in order to get that 5+ cover against the nasty stuff which comes at my dante unit.

overall your list is pretty good. I like it, if you are playing 2000 points I would be much more against ML Devs in this list, since at that point limit you either have to go all out DoA or all out something else, the mix doesn't work out very well against competitive lists. But here it doesn't seem to eat up many of your points and if you have good luck with them then try them out. But I would personally just have an assault squad instead, even if it is almost wargear free.

well is it anti tank or anti trasnport you are after?

to me at least
ML = transport poppers and swarm harassers. The strength 8 just dose not deal with tanks well enough (being armour 12/13+), but does pop all those nice armour 10/11 cans for you to assault.

If you are concerned about tanks... well you got 9 melta already... hmmmm nothing wrong with the ML I think 4 of them does add some utility to what you can do.

but what else could you get for 130? Well you could go a little crazy with the upgrades but more bodies are prolly a better idea.

3 normal attack bikes... pass
Elite Chap with jetpack.... could be useful for dante. perhaps
5 man assault with melta, pw, and meltabomb? <-- seems like a natural fit

ML are great transport poppers, but the 8 melta he has should be able to handle anything, def with blood lance as well.

ML are good but I just see that unit as asking to get blasted away by a full 1500 point army that has nothing else to shoot at...
It isn't an awful decision though since It could work well, and if it isn't shot up it can really be a nasty unit to deal with transports and hoard while your melta deals with the nastier tanks. I would think of adding Land Speeders with HF and MM instead just to see what you think works better.

Actually I am gonna say go with the extra 5 man assault, with melta, pw and meltabomb

39 marines with jetpacks. 9 meltas + BL. Should at least make some lists quiver in their boots.

ML Devs would be used to pop transports, wouldn't even bother shooting at anything above AV-12. Also I would not deploy them 1st turn by themselves, as you said they would simply be blown away. I would start everything in reserve and hopefully get them onto the table with some assault squads fairly early.

I have another 5man Assault Squad and I'm willing to try that out too. I will play a few games with Devs and a few with the extra Assault Squad and see which performs better. Thanks for all the help guys, the addition of the Libby is going to help a lot.

I will be sure to let you know how the list does, going to be playing several games after Christmas Thanks again guys!

Sweetness, I am going to be fielding alot of devs when I go between 1500-2000 it'll be nice to see how they work in a JP army. (I am running mech, bike, flying dreads)

At 2000pts 3 squads of Devs is very helpful for a DoA list as it lets you open up so transports early so Vanguard can assault infantry units on the drop (and thus not get shot the following turn). It also has a decent chance of surviving until the rest of your army arrives and can generally be covered by a single Priest. The problem is at 1500pts you don't have room to get the numbers you need to make them work, 1 squad is a very obvious target.

The reason I suggested Sanguinary Guard is with Dante they can do the exact same role the Honour Guard are doing for you except they have 2+ armour so will stick around longer, hit much much harder in combat if you manage survive the inital round of shooting and on top of that are scoring. You would probably have to drop the Librarian to fit them in, but a 5 man unit with 3 Infernus Pistols and a Power Fist is only 25pts more than that HG unit and well worth the extra points.

Either way I still think you should have a Power Fist in the Vanguard unit (instead of the Storm Shield if you don't want to make them more expensive). This means you can tag vehicles on the drop with the Fist, multi charging a vehicle and an infantry unit and aiming to wipe the infantry in the second round.

You probably want a couple to flamers in this list, particularly if you drop the Devs. You have heaps of melta and can deal with most infantry in combat, but its usually worth bringing at least 1 flamer unit for horde control if you can.

You should remove Dante, he sucks lol. In all serious I think you should. I know what you said but just hear me out what exactly is Dante doing for you besides allow a single unit none scattering? If you're thinking Vanguard Angels have D6" scatter so I wouldn't worry about it and paying the price of Dante for that ability to use once isn't cost affective.

Honour Guard I don't understand - why storm shield? Take another melta?

Dante wouldent go with vanguard as he removes the heroic intervention. He does also add hit and run and a nifty Independed char debuff.

Though there are more cost effective options (chap/lib) he is still viable at this level.

i think the lack of scatter and lowering another enemy IC and being good in close combat is all great. The lack of scatter allows you to place the honor guard meltas, and the libbie blood lance where ever you want, and you can knock out a lot of tanks that way.

i put a storm shield in my honor guard since dante attracts a lot of Ap2, and ap 1 shots, and i like using the storm shield for wound allocation.

hazal wrote:Dante wouldent go with vanguard as he removes the heroic intervention. He does also add hit and run and a nifty Independed char debuff.

Though there are more cost effective options (chap/lib) he is still viable at this level.

Ah yes, it's the unit he's with not a unit which gets it.

Lax35 wrote:@Sageheart: I know the Devs lack mobility and all, but they are worth the long range anti-tank they supply. I never bothered with them until a recent game with DE. My opponent would flat out with his ravangers moving 24" one turn, move 12" next and unload dissitegrators into my assault squads cauing instant death and staying out of melta range thanks to night shields.

That's if they survive turn 1. Remember your dev squad is 130 points. Since you have nothing saturating fire you are effectively giving him an easy KP, target decision on his turn 1. This squad will be having 1,500 points of threat targeting it specifically. Many armies at 1,500 points have enough to take down 1 squad of Devs in a single turn. My 1,500 point nids list runs 3x squads of 2 Hive Guard and my BA mech list runs 3x Baals, 3x Las Preds, 4x TL AsC RBs. Their points are better spent somewhere else.

Regardless it showed me having Devs sitting in the backfield can not hurt. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say land JP? Everything I have minus the Devs would be DoA. Based on your advice I have tweaked the list!

HQ
Dante-225
Honour Guard(JP,3xMelta,SS)-215
Librarian(JP,Blood Lance, FotD)-125

I would go another Librarian with the same psychic powers as your other one. This will also free up more points. You can also get Pref Enemy with him if you want. But I like your setup with Lance, FotD and I would take that twice!

Elites
Sanguinary Priestx2(JP)-150

Great choice on Spriests. Keeping them cheap is smart

Troops
Assault Squadx10(Melta,Melta,PF)-235
Assault Squadx10(Melta,Melta,PF)-235

Fast Attack
Vanguard Vetsx5(JP,LCx1,SSx1)-185

If you drop the Devs you can add more vets or give them better wargear since they will almost be assured the charge after they DS. Even if you keep them at 5 I would suggest upgrading the Sgt. to a PF for only 10 more pts.

Heavy Support
Dev Squadx5(4xML)-130

Just threw FotD as the second power for the Libby, Dante already rerolls to hit anyway and the chance to run an enemy threat off the table makes me happy . The librarian adds the psychic defense I was lacking, and now the squads are more point effective.

This is just friendly advice to make the list more competitive. Nothing that must be done or set in stone of course. If you do decide to make those changes though dropping Devs and exchanging Dante for another Lib then you can have more points for another RAS with 2 Meltas/PF. Or you can make it an anti/infantry specific squad and make them flamer/flamer/hand flamer. I always like taking 1 squad with that so you can toast stuff like orcs or nids.

agree with above stuff, thou i do like the dante. I would use the dev points for more assault squads thou

syypher wrote:

Lax35 wrote:@Sageheart: I know the Devs lack mobility and all, but they are worth the long range anti-tank they supply. I never bothered with them until a recent game with DE. My opponent would flat out with his ravangers moving 24" one turn, move 12" next and unload dissitegrators into my assault squads cauing instant death and staying out of melta range thanks to night shields.

That's if they survive turn 1.

As I said they would start in reserve, would not put them out on the table by themselves, as you all said easy KP.

As far as Dante goes I'm well aware I can make the list more competitive with another libby is his place but its not all about winning, and as I said I love Dante and have used him effectively at this point level.

I will play around with the Devs and try different things that you all have suggested and see what performs the best. Thanks for the input again guys!

I really don't like the Devs in this list. They aren't good walking onto the table from reserves, so you lose at least 2 full turns of effect from them when you can't start them on the table. Check out Predators instead, same volume of fire, better mobility, AV13 is a pain in the ass from range, and they help lot in games when you don't want to be deepstriking your army (which is actually somewhat frequently) as they can form the front of your line and get cover for everything else by being in the way.

I don't like Dante either. I've played about 30 games with him in DoA lists and he isn't all he's cracked up to be. Your DS is accurate enough that you really don't need the Tactical Precision rule and once he's on the table he's pretty subpar for his points. He could be another Assault Squad, 2x Baal Predators (which are good in a similar way to how normal Predators are good), or another unit of Vanguards + other stuff instead.

I think you need something that is brutal in close combat. You realy can't answer things like Thunderwolves, Bloodcrushers, Trygons, etc very well right now. I'd drop the Meltas from that Honor Guard and get it a Chapter Banner, more Storm Shields, and a mix of Lightning Claws and Power Fists. The unit is silly resilient with 3++ and FNP, even if they are 1 wound models. If you're smart about where you land them then you won't have to worry too much about your opponent shooting them to bits immediately either.

I'm not going to put any mech in a DOA list, if you wanna talk about easy KP theres a topic. If I have one single pred on the board its gunna get smacked by all my opponents anti-tank which has nothing else to shoot at.

I love Dante, I've acknowledged he probably isn't worth the points but I enjoy using him and find him to be a fun HQ.

The brutal part of my CC is the amount of attacks the squads I have get.Loading PW into squads just makes them pricey and limits the amount of bodies I can have on the field. Decking out the honor guard as you have described would make them easily between 300 and 400 points.

Devs are not set in stone, as I said I will test them out and if they fail hard odds are I will throw a 5man squad in their place.

Two HQs in 1500 pt games is too much. I'd drop the Dev's as said and add another VV unit (just with a fist).
In the best case, both VV units arrive in 1st turn and can eventually silence guns.

So cut the libby and devs for an extra VVS with a fist, definitely not a bad idea. That's definately something I'd be willing to try out

Lax35 wrote:I'm not going to put any mech in a DOA list, if you wanna talk about easy KP theres a topic. If I have one single pred on the board its gunna get smacked by all my opponents anti-tank which has nothing else to shoot at.

I love Dante, I've acknowledged he probably isn't worth the points but I enjoy using him and find him to be a fun HQ.

The brutal part of my CC is the amount of attacks the squads I have get.Loading PW into squads just makes them pricey and limits the amount of bodies I can have on the field. Decking out the honor guard as you have described would make them easily between 300 and 400 points.

Devs are not set in stone, as I said I will test them out and if they fail hard odds are I will throw a 5man squad in their place.

Predators are not easy KP when they're far away (and why would your vehicles with 48" range guns be getting close to the enemy). I have about 15 games under my belt with 4 Preds in my 2k list and I haven't lost more than 2 of them in a single game yet. I'm playing against all of the "top" lists as well (SW and BA Razorspam, Mech IG, Thunderwolves, etc). your opponent is very unlikely to have a lot of long ranged AT fire, and what he does have is not very good against AV13. They solve a big gap in the army as well since they give your stuff some form of resilient ranged support that can be active from the turn it hits the table. Things like Devastators are subpar in any matchup or scenario in which you want to reserve/deepstrike your army. In fact, they're really bad in those instances. DoA style lists need to bring pressure quickly and in order to do that you need to make sure that your stuff is functional as soon as possible.

you also would be playing more than 1 Predator if you wanted to go that route. I'd shoot for probably 3 in 1500pts.

My HG unit costs I think 305pts. Super expensive but really easy to set up with combats against the problem units and they generally will win those combats if they're charging (and they should be charging). I also stick my Librarian with them as Preferred Enemy puts them over the top in combat. More bodies is not always going to be the answer. Those Assault Squads are going to get lots of attacks but they won't be super killy against dedicated CC elements on the charge and they'll struggle immensely against dedicated CC units if they get charged. Something like a unit of Thunderwolves can and will tear Assault Squads apart in CC, FNP or no. Dante isn't good enough to turn the combat and Sanguinary Guard aren't good enough to win the combat either since they have no resiliency against Rending and Thunderhammer attacks. Storm Shields tend to be key in combat against heavy hitters.

This is all based on my playtesting with my current version of my 2000pt list, which is about 15 games now (and probably 50+ games in total with DoA Angels of some kind). Obviously I have more points to play with at 2k, but I have a good idea of what I would be dropping if I went down to 1500pts and I don't end up dropping anything that I'd be worried about not having. The playstyle is important to the things you choose to include in your list. My army is tailored to fit the way I play the game, so I'm sure things that work for me won't necessarily fit with other people. My suggestions are based on my experiences from lots of playtesting against the lists that people consider to be the top tier. My army doesn't win every single game it plays by any means, but I'm holding my own against the things that are widely considered the strongest and meanest armies out there.

If it works for you then by all means thats awesome. Personally I'm going for no mech, and most off the people I play have long range anti-mech, for example tau rail guns which make short work of av-13.

Also I think what you give a unit determines what they do, for example you put all those weapons and SS in your honour guard to make them a big CC threat, whereas I put meltas in my squad with Dante to make them a huge anti-mech threat, seeing as nowadays people run mainly mech lists.

At 2000 points I would definately beef up the Vanguard Vet squad as well as add another another squad of them. At 1500 points I think it is just too expensive to make a deathstar.

I wouldn't knock out the libbie, knock out dante before the libbie. I think the devs need to go.

I didn't think of a Close Combat specialist unit needed, but maybe it is in case you do deal with thunderwolves and other such things. I think the list is good now, just replace the devs, and then at the 2000 level add in some combat nastiness.