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I understand WYSIWYG and the reason it's used.

But I have my own concern, with Blood Angels, you buy tons of Assault Marines.

However, I played the DoA list first, and never had many WYSIWYG problems.

Now that I play Mech BA it has been brought up to me; "Why do they Jump Packs, when they're in a Razorback?"
My reply.. "You really want me to rip off all 35 Jump Packs for that? It's not like I'll move them 12 inches each turn."

See to me I see the problem being, they come with Jump Packs yes and they've been glued as such.

But now I have to take them all off? Doesn't seem to fun to reapply glue constantly, and I'd love to magnetize the little guys trust me.

My money isn't in the right place to buy about 40 magnets and whatever tools though.

I for one, will buy all the Melta Guns, Power Swords, and Fists, but if you were to play me, and I show you a list which clearly says they are not using JP's; yet they still have JP's but I still move them the normal 6' and make it clear just to disregard the JP's. Would you make a big deal out of it?

I really just don't like WYSIWYG in the terms of people using it to be ridiculous, but I do get the fact of it being used to distinguish characters and models with special equips.

I think your opponents should stop their complaining and just be happy. If assault marines w/JP mounted in a Razorback is blowing their minds, perhaps they dont need to play 40k anyway. There is no reason why you couldnt play them as a counts-as unit, ive seen much more obnoxious stuff than that. I think its hard to commit to certain options on models --because sometimes powerfists are better than a power weapon, sometimes you need JPs and other time you dont. Its a good thing we superglue everything together --Keep playing with them the way they are!

Element206 wrote:I think your opponents should stop their complaining and just be happy. If assault marines w/JP mounted in a Razorback is blowing their minds, perhaps they dont need to play 40k anyway. There is no reason why you couldnt play them as a counts-as unit, ive seen much more obnoxious stuff than that. I think its hard to commit to certain options on models --because sometimes powerfists are better than a power weapon, sometimes you need JPs and other time you dont. Its a good thing we superglue everything together --Keep playing with them the way they are!

I did this at a tournament, and no one seemed to have a problem.

But now our FLGS wants to go all Rogue Trader status and plays with the old school RT missions and such.

Also they're planning on going STRICT WYSIWIG, where this will be a problem.

I think you should just rip em off and shove em back on every time! This is not a game, its a way of life, so either do it right or dont do it at all! Wait, this is a game? Ok, tell your opponents to chill, it isnt practical to rip em off, so just tell them to deal with it.

WYSIWIG is what it is, this is going to sound harsh but either follow the rules where you play, or play somwhere else.

You really should have magnitized your jump packs, your FLGS isnt the only place that requires you to be WYSIWIG compliant, its pretty much the norm for tournements.

With that said, if its a friendly game I could care less, but a tournement has rules, and rules need to be followed. Especially since it will cost you less then $5 to magnitize that few jump packs.

Dude just magnet your jetpacks. it's a bit of a pain, but you can remove/add them as necessary. Do it!

as long as you explain "These assault squads are NOT equipped with JP's, they are in the razorback" then I have no problemo.

I agree.Your opponents should not be making a deal of it.The fact they are embarked in a transport in your list and as such move 6 inches,should be enough.

Catyrpelius wrote:WYSIWIG is what it is, this is going to sound harsh but either follow the rules where you play, or play somwhere else.

You really should have magnitized your jump packs, your FLGS isnt the only place that requires you to be WYSIWIG compliant, its pretty much the norm for tournements.

With that said, if its a friendly game I could care less, but a tournement has rules, and rules need to be followed. Especially since it will cost you less then $5 to magnitize that few jump packs.

this. friendly games are one thing tournaments are another, you follow rules because a tournament isn't all about you, its about the 30-50 people that have paid to play.

WYSIWYG is designed so the hobby goes smoother, painting is a insular hobby, gaming isn't so respecting other gamers is important.

I always though "WYSIWYG" contradicted "counts-as" in a lot of cases...

using a jump packed marine as a non jump packed marine is more of a proxy than a counts-as

My tournaments consists of roughly 12 people whom I all I know personally.

So really it comes down to me being like... "Really bro, you're going to complain now, when you never had a problem before?"

As for magnetizing, can someone please link me a "How to..." or some site to purchase the things I need.

The_Savior wrote:But now our FLGS wants to go all Rogue Trader status and plays with the old school RT missions and such.

Also they're planning on going STRICT WYSIWIG, where this will be a problem.

Well your FLGS doesnt seem so F . You would think that a gaming store would want to encourage as many people to come play as possible, rather than concerning themselves with insignificant subtleties about the minis

Element206 wrote:

The_Savior wrote:But now our FLGS wants to go all Rogue Trader status and plays with the old school RT missions and such.

Also they're planning on going STRICT WYSIWIG, where this will be a problem.

Well your FLGS doesnt seem so F . You would think that a gaming store would want to encourage as many people to come play as possible, rather than concerning themselves with insignificant subtleties about the minis

It's more of a "We're a small town we can go big!" kind of thing.

Also, with the prize support and RT business going on.

I mean they can bring all the rules and WYSIWYG and complaints all they want... didn't stop me winning with Orks, sure as hell won't stop me from winning with Blood Angels (which it hasn't) either.

I also see it affects new players, telling them they HAVE to get this already to play at a friendly level.

It just sickens me, I'm not even from the same town, me and my group of friends have to drive all the way up there to play.

So when I come by and hangout with all my friends from my town and FLGS. And then get wind of all this new jazz, I'm like... "So it's come to this huh?"

The_Savior wrote:As for magnetizing, can someone please link me a "How to..." or some site to purchase the things I need.

I got mine of ebay.

'How to' really depends on you and the size of the magnets you get. You can get all complicated using drills and inlaying magnets and pinning. Or you can just glue them straight on the marines back and paint them black. How well it works will probably hinge more on how well you measure everything out, rather than how fiddly you get. You should be able to do a fine job with nothing but a sharp knife.

The larger the magnets the stronger the bond you will get, so there is less need for pins and such. You can use magnet to magnet connections, or use magnet to iron/steel tac head connections. Magnet to magnet is stronger but uses up more magnets per marine. I would try to get larger magnets 6-8mm diameter would be good. Any bigger and you might have trouble fitting them. I wouldn't go smaller than 3mm. I have a load of 2mm magnets and they are not really as strong as I would like.

rare earth magnets can be found on ebay, all you than need is a hobby drill some glue and bam. The hardest part you should have is removing the packs in the first place and having to reapply any paints that are lost in the process/ painting the new packs

Sounds like a hobbyist store, WYSIWYG is a store rule where I play in all tournaments.

However in non tourneys the only requirement is to be at least primed to play.

Sadly though you have no place to argue, whine, nor complain as it appears the masses have spoken and you must follow suit.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:rare earth magnets can be found on ebay, all you than need is a hobby drill some glue and bam. The hardest part you should have is removing the packs in the first place and having to reapply any paints that are lost in the process/ painting the new packs

Sounds like a hobbyist store, WYSIWYG is a store rule where I play in all tournaments.

However in non tourneys the only requirement is to be at least primed to play.

Sadly though you have no place to argue, whine, nor complain as it appears the masses have spoken and you must follow suit.

It wasn't really masses it was more of... "Hey we did this all of a sudden without you knowing."

I saw that rare earth thing, and a tutorial.

Seems simple, drill a small hole pop the magnet in once it's been glue. Then viola magnetism.

The_Savior wrote: I'd love to magnetize the little guys trust me.
My money isn't in the right place to buy about 40 magnets and whatever tools though.

Magnets and a drill bit will cost you about $5.

shrike wrote:as long as you explain "These assault squads are NOT equipped with JP's, they are in the razorback" then I have no problemo.

Counts as is "this imperial fist veteran scout guy with a customized bolter counts as Telion" not "this model with the wrong equipment counts as the right model".

Scott-S6 wrote:

The_Savior wrote: I'd love to magnetize the little guys trust me.
My money isn't in the right place to buy about 40 magnets and whatever tools though.

Magnets and a drill bit will cost you about $5.

shrike wrote:as long as you explain "These assault squads are NOT equipped with JP's, they are in the razorback" then I have no problemo.

Counts as is "this imperial fist veteran scout guy with a customized bolter counts as Telion" not "this model with the wrong equipment counts as the right model".

Wouldn't a model counting as model, that someone doesn't own, be similar as model counting as the model it is minus one equipment?

Just saying.

No. The point of couts-as is to allow a unit which does not exist in the rules to be substituted for a unit which does exist in the rules. E.G. you can still use Telion even if you aren't playing ultramarines. A suitable model with the correct equipment is a reasonable substitute.

Using the wrong model (marine with jump-pack) to represent the model you should be using (marine without jump pack) is proxying.

It's Assault Marines with Jump-packs as Assault Marines without Jump-packs. That's a big deal, how?

n0t_u wrote:It's Assault Marines with Jump-packs as Assault Marines without Jump-packs. That's a big deal, how?

Jump pack guys tend to be standing on one foot and maybe even on rocks! Normal running assault marines are standing flat footed more or less. If your using jump pack models your guys eyes will be 3-7 mm higher, thus better LOS, and that is modeling for an advantage.





J/K

Jayden63 wrote:

n0t_u wrote:It's Assault Marines with Jump-packs as Assault Marines without Jump-packs. That's a big deal, how?

Jump pack guys tend to be standing on one foot and maybe even on rocks! Normal running assault marines are standing flat footed more or less. If your using jump pack models your guys eyes will be 3-7 mm higher, thus better LOS, and that is modeling for an advantage.





J/K

lol well i hope noone rules that because all my assault marines have the legs that came with them but regular backpacks.... (which makes them look like their sprinting)

@the-savior: this all sounds like ' i'm not getting my way so i'm throwing the toys out of the pram '

grow up, rules are rules, the FLG you go to is a shop, run by people who need money for food and rent, they went to rogue trader standards to better do this, if you don't like it go somewhere else.

Scott-S6 wrote:No. The point of couts-as is to allow a unit which does not exist in the rules to be substituted for a unit which does exist in the rules. E.G. you can still use Telion even if you aren't playing ultramarines. A suitable model with the correct equipment is a reasonable substitute.

Using the wrong model (marine with jump-pack) to represent the model you should be using (marine without jump pack) is proxying.

I'd have to agree. This is less about WYSIWYG and more of a proxy issue. WYSIWYG tends to anoy me when we are getting into specific wargear choices, but in this case I would pull the jetpacks off.

I realize this hobby is expensive, and in a friendly environment the proxy issue isn't a big deal, but in a tournie I could see how someone would give you a hard time about it.

And even in a friendly environment, it gets confusing if you have multiple units of assault marines engaging in action around the board some of whom don't really have jump packs, but they're modeled exactly the same as ones who do.

I had a problem like that vs a regular BA player a good many years back who never got around to putting the arms or packs onto his assault marines or death company. It was very easy to lose track of which was which, and especially frustrating when he was the one that did it.

hhm. I can see where you're coming from, bookwrack. If all have no JP, I am good if not, surely you can come up with the $5 needed...

BluntmanDC wrote:@the-savior: this all sounds like ' i'm not getting my way so i'm throwing the toys out of the pram '

grow up, rules are rules, the FLG you go to is a shop, run by people who need money for food and rent, they went to rogue trader standards to better do this, if you don't like it go somewhere else.

My way?

Have no problem ripping the packs off, I'm saying I don't think it's a big deal, since all the marines would be without JP's. So it's easy to keep track of.

Also, RT or not, and all that go somewhere else jazz? Really now? Hold your tongue please, if they want me to pretty up my models, fine so be it. I'm still winning the tournaments.

If you really need to, just magnetize them. It really wouldn't be too much work. It would take a while, depending on how many you have.

Gavo wrote:If you really need to, just magnetize them. It really wouldn't be too much work. It would take a while, depending on how many you have.

I did the math... Since I'll need 2 Magnets for each model. I own around 35-40 odd sum of Assault Marines.

So I'd need around 80 at most... and being that I can buy a pack of 100, it would be just peachy.

I planned on magnetizing them, now I have more of a reason too.