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Can anyone clarify what happens if i cast lash of submission on a unit with an attatched independant character? I'm looking to know if i can move the unit and leave the IC where it stands so they are no longer attatched (ie on their own, nothing to allocate wounds to now).

for example, i use lash and roll 9" on a group of ork boyz with a warboss, can i detatch the warboss by only moving the boyz the 9" or must i keep the warboss in coherency?

No because he is "joined" to the unit at that particular point in time, so he would move with the squad. It's no different to shooting a boltgun - you cant pick the IC out from the squad, whereas here you cant pick out the squad from the IC.

Only problem here is someone like Kharn or Lady Malys - they can't be moved by Lash due to special rules so their unit would have to stay put too.

More importantly, an IC is stuck with the squad he's with until your opponent's next movement phase.

The only time the IC can join or leave a squad is during that movement phase, other actions like charging or running or Lash or anything else outside of the movement phase cannot change this.

Spetulhu wrote:Only problem here is someone like Kharn or Lady Malys - they can't be moved by Lash due to special rules so their unit would have to stay put too.

But are those rules lost when joined to a unit that does not have those rules? Or does the unit gain those rules when joined by those characters?

They are not affected by psychic powers, nor can they leave the unit due to lash, so the unit may not legally move.

I guess you could move every model but those ones, maintaining coherency.?

Kevin949 wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Only problem here is someone like Kharn or Lady Malys - they can't be moved by Lash due to special rules so their unit would have to stay put too.

But are those rules lost when joined to a unit that does not have those rules? Or does the unit gain those rules when joined by those characters?

Kharne is independently immune; Lady malys grants immunity to her squad.

Kharne is the only real oddball here; and I have no Idea what happens when a unit with Kharne attached is lashed.

My guess with Kharn would be that the unit is moved by Lash, but Kharn is not affected. And while the Lash move could take them out of coherency for the meantime, I'd still rule that both Kharn and the unit are still attached to each other. On the following CSM turn though, he'd have to move both Kharn and the unit back into coherency, or otherwise they'd be detached from each other.

Lash has already been clarified that the movement rules stand true; i.e. no moving out of coherency, no moving into/through Impassable, etc.

It is all on the Chaos marine FAQ(first page, first Question in the second column)

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharne is the only real oddball here; and I have no Idea what happens when a unit with Kharne attached is lashed.

Units always move at the speed of the slowest model moving in the unit. Since Kharn can't be moved by Lash the entire unit can also not be moved.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lash has already been clarified that the movement rules stand true; i.e. no moving out of coherency, no moving into/through Impassable, etc.

It is all on the Chaos marine FAQ(first page, first Question in the second column)

I don't have the codex in front of me, but I'm not doubting that this is indeed true. However, it still doesn't answer (at least specifically IMHO) how it works against characters immune to Psychic Powers (ie - Kharn) who are attached to units that aren't immune. If the word is taken by the letter, then it would mean that Kharn can be affected by Lash, but who's to say that that ruling takes precedence over the rule that he's immune to it?

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lash has already been clarified that the movement rules stand true; i.e. no moving out of coherency, no moving into/through Impassable, etc.

It is all on the Chaos marine FAQ(first page, first Question in the second column)

I don't have the codex in front of me, but I'm not doubting that this is indeed true. However, it still doesn't answer (at least specifically IMHO) how it works against characters immune to Psychic Powers (ie - Kharn) who are attached to units that aren't immune. If the word is taken by the letter, then it would mean that Kharn can be affected by Lash, but who's to say that that ruling takes precedence over the rule that he's immune to it?

Lash affects the unit, but since Kharn is immune he can't be moved. Since Kharn's movement is '0', no other model in the unit can be moved as they all must move at the speed of the slowest model (rulebook pg 11) . Therefore no model in the unit can be moved although the unit is still technically affected by the power and would therefore still take the pinning test. Per the rules for characters in the rulebook (pg 48), Kharn would go to ground with the unit if they failed the Pinning test.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Lash has already been clarified that the movement rules stand true; i.e. no moving out of coherency, no moving into/through Impassable, etc.

It is all on the Chaos marine FAQ(first page, first Question in the second column)

I don't have the codex in front of me, but I'm not doubting that this is indeed true. However, it still doesn't answer (at least specifically IMHO) how it works against characters immune to Psychic Powers (ie - Kharn) who are attached to units that aren't immune. If the word is taken by the letter, then it would mean that Kharn can be affected by Lash, but who's to say that that ruling takes precedence over the rule that he's immune to it?

You don't need the Chaos book you just need this: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490289a_FAQ_ChaosSpaceMarines_2009.pdf.

Cannot be effected by Psychic powers is a pretty Clear rule; what the rules of a given power does holds no bearing over a character that cannot be effected by powers at all. In other words immunity to psychic powers will always supersede what any psychic power does.



Yak: I can agree with your interpretation: cannot move Kharne means cannot move unit.

Edit: in respose to Yak's last post: the unit+Kharne only has to take the pinning test if the unit is not fearless; but we all already knew that.

I would go the same way as the ruling for a fearless character in a non-fearless unit. In that case the character, even though he isn't personally affected, gets pulled along by the mob. I can't see one model's immunity being shared with an entire unit without explicit permmision from the rules. If Kharn's rule said "Kharn and the unit he is with" then it wouldn't be an issue since it doesn't say that then you can't give the unit he is with Kharn's immunity.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I would go the same way as the ruling for a fearless character in a non-fearless unit. In that case the character, even though he isn't personally affected, gets pulled along by the mob. I can't see one model's immunity being shared with an entire unit without explicit permmision from the rules. If Kharn's rule said "Kharn and the unit he is with" then it wouldn't be an issue since it doesn't say that then you can't give the unit he is with Kharn's immunity.

That's because the rules for Fearless say that's how that special rule works...you can't then just apply that rationale to every situation because there is no indication that you should.

Again, Kharn's immunity is not conferred to the unit he joins. So (for example) if the unit is hit by a psychic shooting attack any attacks allocated to other members of the unit would cause damage normally but any wounds allocated to him would do nothing.

In this case, as I've pointed out, he is immune to the power and therefore cannot be moved by it. Although his unit can be moved since his movement is zero, by the basic rules for movement the unit cannot be moved although the other part of the power (the pinning test) would still apply.

yakface wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I would go the same way as the ruling for a fearless character in a non-fearless unit. In that case the character, even though he isn't personally affected, gets pulled along by the mob. I can't see one model's immunity being shared with an entire unit without explicit permmision from the rules. If Kharn's rule said "Kharn and the unit he is with" then it wouldn't be an issue since it doesn't say that then you can't give the unit he is with Kharn's immunity.

That's because the rules for Fearless say that's how that special rule works...you can't then just apply that rationale to every situation because there is no indication that you should.

Again, Kharn's immunity is not conferred to the unit he joins. So (for example) if the unit is hit by a psychic shooting attack any attacks allocated to other members of the unit would cause damage normally but any wounds allocated to him would do nothing.

In this case, as I've pointed out, he is immune to the power and therefore cannot be moved by it. Although his unit can be moved since his movement is zero, by the basic rules for movement the unit cannot be moved although the other part of the power (the pinning test) would still apply.

Yak: I would actually argue that you cannot allocate Psychic shooting wounds to Kharne at all. My arguement is as follows:

Kharne is immune to the effects of psychic powers, his unit gets targeted with a PSA; the opponent rolls to hit, hits, rolls to wound, wounds, Kharnes controller goes to allocate those wounds and attempts to place one on Kharne(to negate it). The wound is an effect of the psychic power, it is an effect that must come from another effect(the hit), since kharne is immune to the effects, he cannot be hit therefore can never be wounded, therefore is ineligible.

This brings me back to another bit of weirdness that you had addressed before: Kharne is iattached to a non-fearless unit, and therefore no longer fearless. The unit comes under the effects of a morale test-requiring psychic power. The unit fails its morale test. Kharne is now effected by a Psychic power, that he is immune to. I mean depending on the power itself Kharne may or may not actually be effected by it: if it were a Pass morale or Flee/pinning test; he gets effected. If it were a pass morale or do not shoot, he should still be able to shoot while his unit cannot(just like Veil of tears).

I am hoping they give him a shared blessing when they update the codex.

Why does immunity=movement '0'? Why not just move the rest of the unit leaving kharn in place and in coherency?

Because kharn is attached to the unit, and thus cannot be separated during lash, like others mentioned,
Kharn is unaffected by lash but the unit is
but the unit can't move faster than the speed of the slowest model, which in this case, is not moving

And yes, you can allocate psychic wounds on kharn
If he was by himself, he can still 'take' the wounds, the enemy rolls for them, but then you say "hey dude kharn's immune", and he ignores the wounds
thus, in a squad you can allocate one wound to kharn, and essentially ignore one wound per psychic shooting attack directed at you

Kharn's immunity is not conferred to the unit, the unit can still take damage from psychic shooting attacks, and be affected by most psychic powers.

I would recommend everyone to look at the INAT FAQ, there's a whole page on Kharn and how psychic powers affect him and his unit on page 40

@Darien

INAT is not the GW rules in all aspect.

The FAQ (from GW) covers most of the tricks around Kharn.

On topic:
- No movement of that unit since one of the member can not move.

@gorium
That's true, it's a good point to mention it though since it's the most current and consistent ruling across many major warhammer tournaments
But yes, as you said the gw faq has a lot of info about kharn as well
haha who knew how much trouble blessing of the blood god would cause

I was under the impression that rules for IC's are never forwarded onto an attached unit unless it specifically states that they do?!

And you are correct in that impression.

As said though units move at the movement rate of the slowest models, Kharne has a movement of 0", therefore the squad has a movement of 0". If the squad is not fearless, then Kharne is no longer fearless as well meaning that the entire unit would take a pinning test(likely to pass Kharne is Ld 10).

If Kharn has immunity then surely his movement isn't 0 it is Null.

So you can still move the squad, but not out of coherency of Kharn.

Perhaps you can just bunch them up around Kharn and lob a few Battlecannon shells at them.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:If Kharn has immunity then surely his movement isn't 0 it is Null.

So you can still move the squad, but not out of coherency of Kharn.

Perhaps you can just bunch them up around Kharn and lob a few Battlecannon shells at them.

Null movement is not moving is 0".

The speed of the slowest model is cannot move, therefore no models can move.

If he was alone, yes, but having joined a unit that does not have that ability and they get lashed, he will have to move with them as to maintain coherency since they are not immune to psychic powers. The "moving at the slowest pace" rule only applies to normal movement in the movement phase, it does not apply to forced movement such as breaking and fleeing does not abide the standard movement rules, neither does lash of submission.

Kevin949 wrote:If he was alone, yes, but having joined a unit that does not have that ability and they get lashed, he will have to move with them as to maintain coherency since they are not immune to psychic powers. The "moving at the slowest pace" rule only applies to normal movement in the movement phase, it does not apply to forced movement such as breaking and fleeing does not abide the standard movement rules, neither does lash of submission.

First of all, the Lash FAQ says that it is performed EXACTLY like a normal move, so you are incorrect.


Also, all the restrictions for basic movement apply to every phase of the game unless specified otherwise. This follows the same pattern as putting the process of wounding models in the shooting phase section of the book even though players have to reference those rules when units suffer wounds in the movement phase (for example).

If you don't play that normal restrictions on movement apply except when specified otherwise then you get ludicrous rulings like 'running' units going through impassable terrain and/or moving within 1" of enemy models.


In short, yes, the rules for a unit moving at the rate of the slowest model applies in all circumstances unless specified otherwise. So Kharn's unit may not be moved by Lash.

Kevin949 wrote:The "moving at the slowest pace" rule only applies to normal movement in the movement phase, it does not apply to forced movement such as breaking and fleeing

So if you attach a bike of Jet Bike IC to an infantry squad, and then I force them to Flee; you will be moving the whole unit 3d6"? That is an awesome way to make a unit never be able to regroup(since the IC moving an extra 1d6 is very likely to be out of coherency after the initial fall back move).

The movement rules, all of the movement rules, apply every time a model is moved; excepting where specified otherwise.

They would fall back at the rate of the slowest model, so 2d6.

Same if a non-jump pack character joined jump infantry. They would move only 6" (but could ignore terrain on the way) and would fall back 2d6".

Spellbound wrote:They would fall back at the rate of the slowest model, so 2d6.

Same if a non-jump pack character joined jump infantry. They would move only 6" (but could ignore terrain on the way) and would fall back 2d6".

I was asking Kevin; to show him he is wrong.

Also if a non-jump infantry IC joins a Jump infantry unit, they do not ignore terrain. Difficult terrain tests must still be taken(that is the speed of the slowest model).

Even if as they move, the ic doesn't cross or touch difficult terrain? They couldn't make a 6" jump?