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Kharne unaffected being equivalent to movement zero is too much of a stretch of the rules.

Kharne's movement isn't null, isn't zero, it's inapplicable. Asking your calculator to divide by zero doesn't give you an answer equal to zero, it means you error out and the game breaks.

I think you play it exactly as the rules are written; Kharne is unaffected by the psychic power and the psychic power has no effect on him, specifically. The other models in his unit are, and they can be moved about, but nothing about lash allows them to break coherency rules, thus the squad must keep a chain of models within 2" of Kharne. This way breaks no game rules and requires no leaps of faith to link to other game rules.

Inapplicable does not equal zero. Go ask Microsoft Excel to subtract 4 from 'Bananas'. You won't get zero, you'll get #NAME or #ERROR.

Okay, so put it this way: The movement rules restrict the whole squad to moving at the speed of the slowest model. And one of the models in the unit cannot move. The interpretation doesn't require a numeric value.

Out of curiosity... what do people think of this?

Psychic shooting attacks and similar effects that would specifically affect Kharn as a model in play are clearly nullified. He cannot cannot fall into the JOTWW, for example.

On the other hand, certain Psychic Powers affect units, and whilst Kharn, alone, is immune to the effects of Psychic Powers, he does not grant this immunity to another unit that he joins.

For example, powers such as Lash' and the Eldar 'Doom' power specifically effect units, and whilst 'Kharn' (as a unit) is 'immune', this cannot protect him from the effects of psychic powers that are able to resolve against his unit in general.

I agree that this special rule pretty much breaks the game, but making a clear distinction between a unit that is entirely or partially immune to psychic effects is just as reasonable as leaving him still and remaining in coherency, or restricting the unit to 'movement zero'.

Doom, for example, would still allow re-rolls to wound against a unit including Kharn because nothing has affected him until wounds are allocated - in which case it is not the effect per se, but the result of the psychic power that has already taken effect. 'Kharn' (the unit) is not the target. '10 Chaos Space Marines with Kharn attached' is the target, and 'Unit X+Kharn' is distinct to just 'Kharn'.

I agree that Doom will work against shooting. In HTH attacks have to be allocated against the unit or the Independent Character, so close combat wounds against Kharn would not be re-rolled.

It's still a rule that doesn't get conferred to the unit he is in so while he may not be affected by the lash, the whole of the unit he is in will be and he must maintain coherency with the group of dudes he is surrounding himself with.

FYI Kommisar, your scenario is fine and well except for the fact that falling back rules are clearly defined where as this is not.

Yakface, yes it says that is treated as normal movement. Which would then tell you even further that the unit SHOULD be moved and Kharn will have to maintain coherency.

Again, yes kharn is immune to psychic powers, that's great for him but as everyone has said, not being affected does not equal 0" movement. For 0" to be valid he would have had to be affected by lash to even be able to have the OPTION of moving "up to" 2d6 inches, which he does not but the unit he is in does have to. And he has to follow them.

And the unit has to move at the lowest speed of any mdoel in the unit.

Can Kharne move? No? THen the unit cannot move as it would then be moving faster than the slowest model in the unit, breaking a rule.

My argument is that Kharne+Unit (one unit for the purposes of resolving fzorgle) does not equal Kharne by himself (one unit for the purposes of resolving fzorgle). One of those units is immune to the effects of psychic powers and the other is not.

Kharne is certainly a seperate unit for the purposes of close combat, such as would apply in the example given by Mannahin. The 'effect' of the psychic powe would, in that case, be specifically affecting Kharn as a seperate unit.

Fzorgle does not affect models, it affects units. The unit, when it consists of any other CSM models, is not immune to Psychic Powers, and since Kharn cannot be distinguised from that unit when he is attached as in IC... off he dances.

Just stoking the argument here, I like these debates.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the unit has to move at the lowest speed of any mdoel in the unit.

Can Kharne move? No? THen the unit cannot move as it would then be moving faster than the slowest model in the unit, breaking a rule.

Kharne's speed is 6. He simply cannot be moved. That's where the error in your reasoning surfaces. 'Cannot be moved' does not equate to 'cannot move' does not equate to 'Speed 0'.

If your line of reasoning is valid, then I can make the claim that a vehicle that you moved in your prior movement phase cannot be moved until your next turn, therefore it has no movement, therefore it is immobilized, therefore I automatically hit in close combat.

Just because many states are similar does not mean that they're equivalent.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:My argument is that Kharne+Unit (one unit for the purposes of resolving fzorgle) does not equal Kharne by himself (one unit for the purposes of resolving fzorgle). One of those units is immune to the effects of psychic powers and the other is not.

Kharne is certainly a seperate unit for the purposes of close combat, such as would apply in the example given by Mannahin. The 'effect' of the psychic powe would, in that case, be specifically affecting Kharn as a seperate unit.

Fzorgle does not affect models, it affects units. The unit, when it consists of any other CSM models, is not immune to Psychic Powers, and since Kharn cannot be distinguised from that unit when he is attached as in IC... off he dances.

Just stoking the argument here, I like these debates.

When an IC is joined to a unit he is part of that unit except in the cases where the rules specifically say that he is treated separately (such as in CC, for example). That's why if the Doom of Malan'tai is within range of a unit with joined IC you don't roll for the DOM's attacks separately for both the joined IC and the unit separately, because there is only one unit there.

So again, when lash affects the unit Kharn is unaffected and therefore cannot be moved. Since he cannot be moved no other model in the unit can as well.

sourclams wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:And the unit has to move at the lowest speed of any mdoel in the unit.

Can Kharne move? No? THen the unit cannot move as it would then be moving faster than the slowest model in the unit, breaking a rule.

Kharne's speed is 6. He simply cannot be moved. That's where the error in your reasoning surfaces. 'Cannot be moved' does not equate to 'cannot move' does not equate to 'Speed 0'.

If your line of reasoning is valid, then I can make the claim that a vehicle that you moved in your prior movement phase cannot be moved until your next turn, therefore it has no movement, therefore it is immobilized, therefore I automatically hit in close combat.

Just because many states are similar does not mean that they're equivalent.

Yes, the current rate a model may be moved is his movement rate. That's why when a single model is reduced to moving slower than the rest of his unit (say one model in mega-armor, for example) he effectively slows down the rest of his unit's movement, even though his standard rate of movement is still technically 6" because he is an infantry model.

And no this does not mean that because a vehicle cannot move one turn it suddenly has suffered an immobilized damaged result (although, yes a vehicle that can't move for one phase is auto-hit in CC)...I'm not exactly sure how you got to that conclusion, but it certainly can't be logically supported.

Therefore it has no movement' does NOT equal 'therefore it immobilized'. Immobilized is a specific damage result that has nothing to do with whether or not a vehicle doesn't move an entire game. A vehicle could be stunned for every turn of the game (unable to move) and it still would not be 'immobilized' because that's a specific damage result.

The lash does not slaow khaarn as that wpuld constitute affecting him and we know that he is immune.

yakface wrote:

Yes, the current rate a model may be moved is his movement rate. That's why when a single model is reduced to moving slower than the rest of his unit (say one model in mega-armor, for example) he effectively slows down the rest of his unit's movement, even though his standard rate of movement is still technically 6" because he is an infantry model.

The lashing model cannot move Kharn. That does not equate to 'Kharn cannot move'. You have decided that two similar game states are identical game states, and this is where your reasoning breaks.

If Kharne cannot be moved by Lash, how does that not equate to him not being able to move?

The lash rules, particularly the C:CSM FAQ, make clear that the lashing player is basically moving the unit as if it were under his control. As Yak pointed out, if one model in a unit is equipped with Mega Armor, then the whole unit is bound to and limited by his movement roll. Same with Kharn. He cannot move, and thus the unit cannot move, as they are restricted to the speed of the slowest model in the unit.