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I was just wondering, if you go to ground when you're in the open, do you get a cover save? I doubt it but there's been some debate recently and I'd like to clarify it. Thanks!

I don't belive you do- At least, thats been the general consensus with the people I've played with.

IIRC you get a 6+ cover save from going to ground with no cover.

You do get a Cover Save for going to ground in the open, it is a 6+. pp 24 on the left hand side

Cool, thanks for the quick replies. So, a 6+ it is.

calypso2ts wrote:You do get a Cover Save for going to ground in the open, it is a 6+. pp 24 on the left hand side

True. I should have checked it myself, I just heard it from other people. I just checked it now and your right.

It does seem a little weird that throwing yourself on to the floor, where the enemy can still clearly see you should give a cover save. But rules are rules.

CommissarCandlestick wrote:It does seem a little weird that throwing yourself on to the floor, where the enemy can still clearly see you should give a cover save. But rules are rules.

I guess it could represent going to ground as the bullet or lasbolt comes towards you, so it misses you.

Lokirfellheart wrote:

CommissarCandlestick wrote:It does seem a little weird that throwing yourself on to the floor, where the enemy can still clearly see you should give a cover save. But rules are rules.

I guess it could represent going to ground as the bullet or lasbolt comes towards you, so it misses you.

Fair point, but it still seems unlikely; and how could you dodge a blast weapon such as a Demolisher Cannon?

"Open" ground in real life has small slopes and depressions which we would not represent on the tabletop. I've learned from paintball and real military service that a surprisingly minor slope on "open" ground can give you a bit of cover. Not the ideal situation to be in, but I could definitely see a 6+ save, especially if you are pinning yourself to hug the ground.

To address the ordnance question- When you hug the ground you become less of a target for the ordnance. Most weapons of this type depend upon shrapnel or a shrapnel like effect to harm their target. When you're on the ground you present a lesser profile as most of the shrapnel is thrown outward and upward (think of an umbrella point down on the ground) the shrapnel is thrown over the target if he is lying down.

Even on flat ground, or cement/tarmac, you are better 'covered' if you go prone rather than standing up.

Stand up in front of a mirror. Now lie down. Even with no undulating ground you make yourself a much smaller target.

~Alex.

If you think a 6+ is too much try having stealth for a 5+, or using the incomming order from IG for a 4+, or combining both for a 3+ coversave... IN THE OPEN!!!

+1 for Leo_the_rat, coredump and alexgm101.
They all define cover sense and meaning, each in every way it is used.
Military speaking, shrapnel effect has been gorgeously explained (Leo_the_rat) while reducing your silhouette (coredump & alexgm101) inevitably makes you harder to hit and being "in the open" doesn't ever mean standing on a perfectly plain, leveled surface. High grass, hills, and/or debris are there, and hiding yourself behind them might not stop bullets, but makes you harder to spot and be hit.

Hoverboy: Note that you can "only" get 4+ in the open with IG. The order is pretty much that the unit goes to ground but get an increased bonus, you can't go to ground twice!

Oscarius wrote:Hoverboy: Note that you can "only" get 4+ in the open with IG. The order is pretty much that the unit goes to ground but get an increased bonus, you can't go to ground twice!

This really has to do with what cover doing incoming in the open gives in the 1st place (as its never stated), some say 5+ (one better than going to ground) others say 4+ (going to ground improved by 2), fortunately for me i've avoided the issue thus far

Not to mention 4+ in the open is still pretty ipressive.

The wording is strange to be honest, not to say that it could be argued that "incoming" doesn't give a bonus at all in the open.
The wording is +2 to cover INSTEAD OF THE NORMAL BONUS.
Would you say that the 6+ save in the open is a bonus? If such incoming would give you jack as you can't get a bonus to cover that you don't already have.

That is just bullcrap though, I would go with a 5+ in a normal game.

Oscarius wrote:That is just bullcrap though, I would go with a 5+ in a normal game.

It is the best solution.

Oscarius wrote:Hoverboy: Note that you can "only" get 4+ in the open with IG. The order is pretty much that the unit goes to ground but get an increased bonus, you can't go to ground twice!

Eldar Pathfinders, 4+ cover from going to ground... why you'd both when you can just chuck them in some trees for 2+ is beyond me though.

Oscarius wrote:The wording is strange to be honest, not to say that it could be argued that "incoming" doesn't give a bonus at all in the open.
The wording is +2 to cover INSTEAD OF THE NORMAL BONUS.
Would you say that the 6+ save in the open is a bonus? If such incoming would give you jack as you can't get a bonus to cover that you don't already have.

That is just bullcrap though, I would go with a 5+ in a normal game.

I'm fairly certain, that the only time one receives a 'bonus' to ones cover save is when one is already in cover.
If one's in the open one is granted a 6+ cs for gtg. One is granted a 6+ cover save for gtg ground in the open, this isn't a 'bonus' or a modifier, one is given a 6+. Whereas if one is in cover "Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately receive +1 to their cover saving throws."

Therefore as one doesn't receive a modifier (bonus) to ones non-existent cover save in the open, incoming - does not work - in the open.

ChrisCP wrote:

Oscarius wrote:The wording is strange to be honest, not to say that it could be argued that "incoming" doesn't give a bonus at all in the open.
The wording is +2 to cover INSTEAD OF THE NORMAL BONUS.
Would you say that the 6+ save in the open is a bonus? If such incoming would give you jack as you can't get a bonus to cover that you don't already have.

That is just bullcrap though, I would go with a 5+ in a normal game.

I'm fairly certain, that the only time one receives a 'bonus' to ones cover save is when one is already in cover.
If one's in the open one is granted a 6+ cs for gtg. One is granted a 6+ cover save for gtg ground in the open, this isn't a 'bonus' or a modifier, one is given a 6+. Whereas if one is in cover "Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately receive +1 to their cover saving throws."

Therefore as one doesn't receive a modifier (bonus) to ones non-existent cover save in the open, incoming - does not work - in the open.

I think you are wrong, it is modified. Gtg in the open is not a bonus or a modifier its a cover save and units with stealth modify cover saves.

Main rulebook:

Units that are not currently in a position that would give them a cover save can still go to ground and receive a 6+ cover save.

Stealth

All of the unit's cover saves are improved by +1.

We aren't talking about stealth in the quotes you just used, we're talking about the IG order "Incoming".

If the order is successfully issued, the ordered unit immediatly goes to ground. The ordered unit reveices a 2+ to its cover save than than the normal bonus.

seems to me that would be a 5+ save out in the open as the normal cover save bonus from going to ground is 6+.

The problem is that the gtg rule is divided.
The first thing it does is giving the unit +1 to any cover save it already has.
The second is, if you're not cover, it gives you a 6+ cover save.

So it's really 3 ways you can see it:

#1: Incoming swap all the rule. +2 cover normally but no cover in the open.
#2: Incoming affect the first part of the rule, giving +2 cover. If in the open the unit still has the normal 6+..
#3: Same as above, but Incoming modify the second part in some kind of strange way, giving the unit a 5+ cover.

I think the second is correct RAW, but the third how it's normally played.

Except the Incoming rule says it receives the 2+ instead of the normal bonus. The normal bonus is 1+. Its not divided at all it states pretty simply that it replaces the normal gtg with a 2+ bonus instead of the 1+.

Codex > rule book so it doesnt matter that gtg is divided in this came. Playing it Raw out in the open an incoming order will get the 5+ save.

Then I want to ask you, how can you have a +1 bonus to something you don't have? Units aren't exactly walking around with hidden 7+ cover saves...

Rulebook says you get a 6+ save even in the open. pg 22

The Acolyte wrote:Rulebook says you get a 6+ save even in the open. pg 22

Really? Because I'm looking at page 22 and there isn't the word 'open' nor any '6+' on it.

Oscarius wrote:The problem is that the gtg rule is divided.
The first thing it does is giving the unit +1 to any cover save it already has.
The second is, if you're not cover, it gives you a 6+ cover save.

So it's really 3 ways you can see it:

#1: Incoming swap all the rule. +2 cover normally but no cover in the open.
#2: Incoming affect the first part of the rule, giving +2 cover. If in the open the unit still has the normal 6+..
#3: Same as above, but Incoming modify the second part in some kind of strange way, giving the unit a 5+ cover.

I think the second is correct RAW, but the third how it's normally played.

Third is made-up maddness But yes one doesn't recives a 'bonus' to ones CS whilst in the open, it's just a CS.
But I think if one had stealth or cloaks and used incoming that would result in a 4+ in the open, 6+ modified by 1 changed to two 4+ ^_^

The Acolyte wrote:Rulebook says you get a 6+ save even in the open. pg 22

Page 24, you mean.