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Edit: new ideas/approach in this post on the following page: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/337259.page#2399599


Hi folks,

I am trying to write up a believable background for my chapter, and while I did already try my hands at an IA over at B&C, (see this link), I want to start from scratch, since my first attempt did not really work out the way I wanted. However, I have already painted quite a few of my guys, and assembled even more, so there are already quite a few things fixed.

I really like the styles of the Dark Angels and Black Templars (as is also apparent from the description below), but I do not want to use their codex, so while a DA successor might be feasible, it is not necessarily the best solution.

So, let me being with what is already fixed:

- The colour scheme (see appendix below), chapter icon (red templar cross over a khaki/bone-mix) and company marking style (heraldic pattern on the right kneepad):

- I also have them use codex markings for ranks and squads, for example the red helmet for sergeants. Might use the bonewhite instead of white for veterans, not sure on that yet.

- Veterans get tabbards and robes from the BT/DA sprues, normal marines do not, with the exception of maybe one in three sergeants.

- Other symbols used are swords and wings, but they are not used frequently on my models so far.



I do not want a carbon copy of the Dark Angels, and I do not want a Deathwing or Ravenwing equivalent, but I want there to be "circles within circles", too, with the robe and tabbard guys being part of those circles in various degrees. So they need some kind of secret, and it would have to be 1. sinister (all the grimdark feeling and such) and 2. either something that could cause serious trouble for the chapter if discovered by anyone. Here I had already thought of something more along the lines of Raven Guard, but got no further.

Another thing I would like them to have is a fortress-monastery on a jungle planet, possibly the largest fortress-monastery there is in the IoM. This, again, might be connected to the secret they keep.

Now I could really use some help in developing this further, since I have more or less hit a dead end here. The biggest dilemma at the moment seems to be: how do I get them to be monkish-mysterious-sinister like the DA without making them exactly the same with only a slightly different colour scheme?




Appendix: Pictures so you can better imagine the chapter.

Colour scheme:


The army a few weeks ago (robe and tabbard marines in the tactical squads will be replaced once I get to it):


The current painting style:





--------------------

1) nice paint-scheme and well done figs.

2) the Dark Angels got their monk-ishness from their Homeworld, so any medieval style planet could do the same for you.

3) DA's dark secret? Tell me

4) You want something sinister and grimdark? And secret?
Is it secret like the =I= better don't know of it or is it secret as its shameful?

Skylifter wrote:I really like the styles of the Dark Angels and Black Templars (as is also apparent from the description below), but I do not want to use their codex, so while a DA successor might be feasible, it is not necessarily the best solution.

First off for the painting.

Fluff wise a chapter can be a dark angel successor and not play like the dark angels, it is only those chapters that form the unforgiven (dark angels, their second founding chapters and a small handful of later chapters) that follow the dark angels style of deployment. If Mars made a chapter using dark angel geneseed but the unforgiven were not involved in their establishment they wouldn't have the ravenwing or deathwing.

Thanks for the praise.

The DA's secretis that El'Johnson betrayed the emperor. Whoops. It's out. Will they hunt me now?

But on a more serious note, I rather want a non-DA chapter that does feel like them. A chapter drawn from DA geneseed but without any contact to the 'Legion of Sin' would be basically vanilla, but what I am looking for is the monkish/knightish style, so either that is derived from contact with the DA if my chapter is a successor of them, or it needs some completely different source, and then it does not have to have DA geneseed.

As for secrets, geneseed flaws are relatively obvious to the normal marine, and would not make for that whole inner circle structure.

On the whole, I think a DA successor with some slight twist or other will be the best bet.

"They" will

Skylifter wrote:The DA's secretis that El'Johnson betrayed the emperor. Whoops. It's out. Will they hunt me now?

WHAT?? It was Luther, not Jonson, who turned to chaos.

Nah, he didn't. Read 'Angels of Darkness' by Gav Thorpe, a wonderful book that persuaded me DA were cool after all.

I've got it!

So, originally, they were like the other Unforgiven chapters, running around, going after the Fallen, ect. But then, miraculously, they decided to stop whining about some crap that happened 10,000 ears ago! Presto, no reason to have the Ravenwing or Deathwing anymore!

Seriously though, snide remarks aside (I'm a Space Wolf player) the above could be the basis for your chapter. Maybe it could be that they caught a ton of Fallen, and felt like they paid their dues so that they could put more focus on hunting xenos/chaos.

Yes, that idea isn't bad at all. I thought something similar, in part also inspired by a few ideas from people over at B&C:

They lost their Deathwing and Ravenwing in some comparatively pointless battle and found their hunt for the Fallen had lead to one or more important planets being lost where they could have helped that had they not prioritized DA style.

As a result, their Grand Master said "Less trying to undo an ancient wrong, more doing present right!" and now they have become a crusading chapter intent on relieving imperial forces where they are the most hard-pressed and turning the tides of otherwise lost battles for the emperor. They'd still hunt the Fallen, but less actively so than the other Legion chapters, maybe more often just telling other chapters when they discover something than giving up other battles to go hunt for them.

Cool stuff - thanks for the input!

I like that. Other than our ancient rivalry (which comparatively, never gets in the way) my biggest beef with the DA is the fact that they abandon a battle (and more so, their comrades) for what would seem like an arbitrary objective. Get rid of that, and there's a few sons of the Lion that I might be able to get along with.

Well, they'd still be zealous madmen, divinity of the emperor and all that stuff, yadda yadda... In fact, if anything, I want them to be more zealous than the original DA, more akin to BT - I chose them as their second inspiration after all.

Your chapter could still hunt the fallen by organizing specialised teams instead. That way troops don't have to pull out of battles and there's the need for the teams to be kept a secret. Really close to DA though.

Hm. That is an option which I'll keep in mind for when I create my sternguard and vanguard teams, I think. They definitely need some way of dealing with the Fallen, and the usual DA way is fast recon and then a massive terminator assault - so maybe the covert ops route would be a nice change of pace.

Btw, what do you folks think about 'Angels of the Cross' as the chapter name? I am not really good at coming up with names I'm afraid. Maybe something with a synonsym for green, like 'Camo Knights', only with a better synonym...

It should definitely be either something knight-ish - not templars, though, that'd be too close to those black chaps' name for comfort - or angel-ish.

Angels of the cross sounds fine, you could also do knight of the cross as well.

The only problem I see with that is that the cross has very little to do with Dark Angles symbology. Even the BT's who use a cross as their chapter icon, do so because it's an ancient Templar icon. I'm fairly sure they're unaware of any Judeo-Christian significance of the symbol. IT certainly has nothing has no significance in the Imperial cult.

I think Knight's or Angels of "the Lion" or "of the Sword" would be more appropriate.

Dunno if this has already been written (didn't read responses as I'm just about to finish installing a game ;P) buuut it's absolutely no problem to play a DA successor chapter with the vanilla SM codex.

The DAs (and the unforgiven) are all Codex Chapters except for their sole deviation being that the 1st and 2nd Companies are a tad unorthodox. That leaves 8 companies organised strictly along codex lines, just as you see on pages 17-19 of the 5th ed SM Codex.

Well, the cross is a classic elite symbol among marines - terminator honours, it was called at first, now it is simply the symbol of veteran squads, but I think that should suffice to have them called angels of the cross. Cross angels might be misinterpreted...

But I'll give it some more thought.

@Henners91: Yeah, I was going to do that anyway, seeing how this chapter won't even have a deathwing or ravenwing, being kind of the black sheep amongst the legion of sin chapters...and frankly because some of the models I have already finished aren't even legal in CA, too (a tactical sergeant cannot have a storm bolter! Argh!).

Well they can still have DeathWing/Ravenwing but you can exclusively collect one company

Unless you're taking termies, in which case just *SAY* they're from your Deathwing

Skylifter wrote:Well, the cross is a classic elite symbol among marines - terminator honours, it was called at first, now it is simply the symbol of veteran squads, but I think that should suffice to have them called angels of the cross. Cross angels might be misinterpreted...

But I'll give it some more thought.

That's true. I'm so used to calling it a Crux Terminatus at this point, I don;t even think of it as a cross. Of course, if you do go with Cross Angels, they can be a brother chapter to my Furious Angels chapter, lead by Chapter Master Rob Dougan.

A peace, offering, if I may:



This is a mock up of a chapter badge. I combined the DA wings and a cross. I think it conveys the point. Don't feel obligated to do anything with this. It's merely a suggestion, and an offering of my photoshop skills, should you wish to employ them in designing an emblem.

Commander Endova wrote:The only problem I see with that is that the cross has very little to do with Dark Angles symbology. Even the BT's who use a cross as their chapter icon, do so because it's an ancient Templar icon. I'm fairly sure they're unaware of any Judeo-Christian significance of the symbol. IT certainly has nothing has no significance in the Imperial cult.

I think Knight's or Angels of "the Lion" or "of the Sword" would be more appropriate.

Knights of the sword sounds really cool.

Skylifter wrote:Yes, that idea isn't bad at all. I thought something similar, in part also inspired by a few ideas from people over at B&C:

They lost their Deathwing and Ravenwing in some comparatively pointless battle and found their hunt for the Fallen had lead to one or more important planets being lost where they could have helped that had they not prioritized DA style.

As a result, their Grand Master said "Less trying to undo an ancient wrong, more doing present right!" and now they have become a crusading chapter intent on relieving imperial forces where they are the most hard-pressed and turning the tides of otherwise lost battles for the emperor. They'd still hunt the Fallen, but less actively so than the other Legion chapters, maybe more often just telling other chapters when they discover something than giving up other battles to go hunt for them.

Cool stuff - thanks for the input!

first off i love your painting.

and second i've tried to make a DA sucessor chapter, mine had the idea that during a cursade a group of marines learned from their dying commander of the story of Luther. The marines were not entirely ready to hear such a story, and felt betrayed by their own chapter since they had been kept out of the loop. They threw away the way the DA fought, and titled themselves the Sons of Luther. They painted their armor yellow to symbolize the sandy beach where they learned of their fallen brother, but they kept their knightly in an attempt to keep with their past. They decided instead of running after the fallen they would try to redeem Luther's name in the eyes of the Emperor and by doing so redeem the chapter.

It was still a WIP but thats the route I took before BA took over and I started doing that.

I really like the above idea I quoted that you wrote, that seems to be a good concept.

Endova: I plan to stick with the cross they already have, but I will add wings here and there, especially in more ornate depictions of the chapter badge. Maybe someday I'll go over all of them and add wings, everywhere, but I always tend to rather paint a new mini than to touch up older paintjobs, so that might still take some time. The cross you did is cool, though.

Sageheart: thanks for your praise. I like your concept, too, but I want my chapter to still be on speaking terms with the DA, since I especially like that bit of fluff where they are all still working together and thus basically still a legion commanded by the supreme grand master. While many UM successors would probably follow Calgar if he asked, that is more of an alliance thing, while with DA it is an actual existing hierarchy, which is cool.

Oh, my bad. I forgot you already had the Templar cross on there.

I feel you on that. I like the fluff you came up with, and just offered mine in the hopes it could help!

do you plan on making a P&M blog as you build up the army?

Hey guys, I was away over the weekend. Your fluff sure did help, Sageheart, even if only to further my own creativity.

I'm probably not going to make a P&M blog, since I'm not very good with my camera, which also isn't really that great either. But I might get a friend to help me take pictures every once in a while, and then I'll just bulk upload what I will have done until then.

Oh, and I am not very quick with painting, either, so it could take quite a while.

At the moment the plan is to finish a 'mixed mobile platoon': 2 tactical squads and 2 assault squad with rhinos, a command squad and captain with razorback, a terminator squad in a crusader, and a few tanks - preds and/or vindicators. Or I might take my librarian and the scout squads and the lad speeder and trike I have lying around and make a small recon detachment first. In the end I guess I'll work on both. Only thing I haven't got an idea where to fit in is the dread.

So.. yeah, you will get more pics at some point in the future.

Skylifter wrote:Hm. That is an option which I'll keep in mind for when I create my sternguard and vanguard teams, I think. They definitely need some way of dealing with the Fallen, and the usual DA way is fast recon and then a massive terminator assault - so maybe the covert ops route would be a nice change of pace.

Btw, what do you folks think about 'Angels of the Cross' as the chapter name? I am not really good at coming up with names I'm afraid. Maybe something with a synonsym for green, like 'Camo Knights', only with a better synonym...

It should definitely be either something knight-ish - not templars, though, that'd be too close to those black chaps' name for comfort - or angel-ish.

dont forget that the current DA's are actually the bad guys - hunting the 'Fallen' who actually know the truth, and who have stayed loyal throughout.... only the inner circle of current chaps know this..... meaning that Ezikel and Co. are wanna-be goodies who have done bad things and who are trying to make sure that nobody else finds out about the bad stuff they all did together before the rouge trooper manual was published...... that includes the taking no action against the destruction of the native indian home-world 'ahem' that was the only planet providing the original DA space marines (the loyal ones that is) which is why it was allowed to get scrubbed by Mr Johnson (who was a poet a couple of centuries ago - wiki it to see his hobbies and interests .... Johnson was allowing genestealer 'reservations' to be established etc.....only a few stood against this - and they were unaided by the DA's at large.... Cloud Runner and his tribe...... now the current DA's just cover this all up and its been made into an urban myth.... not a comentary on anything in the real world im sure... but there you go - i didnt write the background......... but as weve not heard about Cloud Runner since (imperial publicity has gone very quiet on it in the last few years in GW land...) i guess he and his tribes found out how much fun Casinos and Whisky can be......

so - Green DA's = bad... most believe they are good & all that but their leaders are bad, meaning what they do and the battles they fight are not for the right reasons.. = bad
old Black / very very dark colour DA's = good, but way outnumbered and outclassed in terms of weapons etc compared to newer green ones

thats what i gleen from the background n e way - needless to say i have a black DA army (well - its got a bit of green ink in the mix to stop it looking like templars but you know what i mean!!) - thoughts?

Interesting interpretation of the fluff. I haven't read all the HH novels yet, so maybe you know some things I do not, but I have read Angels of Darkness, and that already says it all, imo. But there are no good guys in 40k either way. All imperial space marines kill innocents on a regular basis - in the employ of a corrupt-to-the-bone autocracy.

DB's interpretation of events isn't from the HH series. Too opposite to the fluff there.

Commander Endova wrote: But then, miraculously, they decided to stop whining about some crap that happened 10,000 ears ago!

yeah sure ,right after Space wolfs stop having sex with their pets

1hadhq wrote:DB's interpretation of events isn't from the HH series. Too opposite to the fluff there.

the 'sugestion' was kind of handed down to me from a nameless grandmaster during my scout induction training at GWHQ, have you ever seen warhammer monthly - the full colour deathwing issue - two heads talking? or read the original deathwing collection novel (1980s)? thats well worth hunting down....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DB wrote:

Skylifter wrote:Hm. That is an option which I'll keep in mind for when I create my sternguard and vanguard teams, I think. They definitely need some way of dealing with the Fallen, and the usual DA way is fast recon and then a massive terminator assault - so maybe the covert ops route would be a nice change of pace.

Btw, what do you folks think about 'Angels of the Cross' as the chapter name? I am not really good at coming up with names I'm afraid. Maybe something with a synonsym for green, like 'Camo Knights', only with a better synonym...

It should definitely be either something knight-ish - not templars, though, that'd be too close to those black chaps' name for comfort - or angel-ish.

dont forget that the current DA's are actually the bad guys - hunting the 'Fallen' who actually know the truth, and who have stayed loyal throughout.... only the inner circle of current chaps know this..... meaning that Ezikel and Co. are wanna-be goodies who have done bad things and who are trying to make sure that nobody else finds out about the bad stuff they all did together before the rouge trooper manual was published...... that includes the taking no action against the destruction of the native indian home-world 'ahem' that was the only planet providing the original DA space marines (the loyal ones that is) which is why it was allowed to get scrubbed by Mr Johnson (who was a poet a couple of centuries ago - wiki it to see his hobbies and interests .... Johnson was allowing genestealer 'reservations' to be established etc.....only a few stood against this - and they were unaided by the DA's at large.... Cloud Runner and his tribe...... now the current DA's just cover this all up and its been made into an urban myth.... not a comentary on anything in the real world im sure... but there you go - i didnt write the background......... but as weve not heard about Cloud Runner since (imperial publicity has gone very quiet on it in the last few years in GW land...) i guess he and his tribes found out how much fun Casinos and Whisky can be......

so - Green DA's = bad... most believe they are good & all that but their leaders are bad, meaning what they do and the battles they fight are not for the right reasons.. = bad
old Black / very very dark colour DA's = good, but way outnumbered and outclassed in terms of weapons etc compared to newer green ones

thats what i gleen from the background n e way - needless to say i have a black DA army (well - its got a bit of green ink in the mix to stop it looking like templars but you know what i mean!!) - thoughts?

green ones = from Caliban / Black ones from the original planet thats now being 'not talked about' by the imperium at large....



has anyone discovered the primachs poetry yet? - doesnt float my boat i have to say, but i would not dream of knocking it if it was your particular cup of tea.... was quite clever of gw to cater for all tastes tho - by including the green marines option....