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I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. I have read all the early space marines stories, including the one about two-heads-talking, and I did not think it was referring to any 'original' planet, but those guys were from one of the DA recruiting worlds, on which they subsequently destroyed a genestealer cult.

The 'Angels of Darkness' hints that the actual heresy committed 10k years ago was not merely the problem of revolting bits of the legion, but of Johnson waiting for the outcome of the battle before choosing sides in the heresy.

Skylifter wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. I have read all the early space marines stories, including the one about two-heads-talking, and I did not think it was referring to any 'original' planet, but those guys were from one of the DA recruiting worlds, on which they subsequently destroyed a genestealer cult.

The 'Angels of Darkness' hints that the actual heresy committed 10k years ago was not merely the problem of revolting bits of the legion, but of Johnson waiting for the outcome of the battle before choosing sides in the heresy.

back in the day each marine chapter was based on a particular 'clan of man' from our own history (real or fictional) with one home world or one area od space in which a few worlds were (like necromunda, golgotha and adjacent planets providing for the imp fists) for each chapter - as this was easy to do, be recognised and gain popularity among the masses (us) - space romans (ultra), space vikings (duh), space vampires (duh again ), and space north american indians (the DAs). etc etc etc.. im told that was the original world where the DAs were 1st taken from - which is why in all the old art for the whole DA army they have honour staffs, feathers and totem symbols - just 4 interest......in the 1st original full army b&w drawing done for the DAs (i think by MG but i cant remember off hand) it has the feathered helm chap inthe centre and banners with numbers on them.. theres a guy ramming an honour staff into the ground - this means that he will not retreat past that point ..... its an american indian thing..... and its why the newer rules give DAs the stubborn mindset when it comes to fleeing.... why else would 'tactical thinkers be 'stubborn' about matters - they are hardly complimentary things

the thing about johnson waiting... thats why he got rid of the black armourd troops - they were not from caliban so were not loyal to him 1st and the emp 2nd - they were loyal to the emp 1st & only...(the original marines would not have sat back & waited during the HH) so he tried to get rid of them and waited for the outcome of the HH... when those (that were in command) back on the rock found out about these matters it kicked off big time....

if so it suggests that the Emp dispersed the black marines to save the truth.... chaos did not spread them about the galaxy... afterall he is the 5th greater power in the 40k universe... he could do that back then...

n e way - thats the old version as i believe and ive been involved with chats about back at the HQ in my time there with some of the big wigs.... (quite a while ago!!) - it may well not be right according to rewitten history (or even back then !!), but it makes sense in many ways

the new HH novels may well not see this thru as it is a bit close to the recent history (only 200/80 yrs or so ago).... time will tell... but i do hope that they start to stick some N/Aindian faces back in their artwork at some point....

shakespere & Co have a lot to answer for..... hahaha - drop some names into wikip to find out more stuff.. like caliban, sycorax, Prospero & Lemuel Johnson try it for other chapters names too - people say that GW is the enemy in terms of the big bad co.. but you have to admit - they really have made an efort with the set up of the 40k universe... you dont see that sort of effort goin into the other 28mm scale wargames out there - & remember that this effort was made in the rouge trooper days - when gw was tiny, they really did deserve to grab our collective interest...... well done gw!!! - now please be fairer & lower your prices!! hahahahahahaha

DB wrote:

Skylifter wrote:I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. I have read all the early space marines stories, including the one about two-heads-talking, and I did not think it was referring to any 'original' planet, but those guys were from one of the DA recruiting worlds, on which they subsequently destroyed a genestealer cult.

The 'Angels of Darkness' hints that the actual heresy committed 10k years ago was not merely the problem of revolting bits of the legion, but of Johnson waiting for the outcome of the battle before choosing sides in the heresy.

back in the day each marine chapter was based on a particular 'clan of man' from our own history (real or fictional) with one home world or one area od space in which a few worlds were (like necromunda, golgotha and adjacent planets providing for the imp fists) for each chapter - as this was easy to do, be recognised and gain popularity among the masses (us) - space romans (ultra), space vikings (duh), space vampires (duh again ), and space north american indians (the DAs). etc etc etc.. im told that was the original world where the DAs were 1st taken from - which is why in all the old art for the whole DA army they have honour staffs, feathers and totem symbols - just 4 interest......in the 1st original full army b&w drawing done for the DAs (i think by MG but i cant remember off hand) it has the feathered helm chap inthe centre and banners with numbers on them.. theres a guy ramming an honour staff into the ground - this means that he will not retreat past that point ..... its an american indian thing..... and its why the newer rules give DAs the stubborn mindset when it comes to fleeing.... why else would 'tactical thinkers be 'stubborn' about matters - they are hardly complimentary things

the thing about johnson waiting... thats why he got rid of the black armourd troops - they were not from caliban so were not loyal to him 1st and the emp 2nd - they were loyal to the emp 1st & only...(the original marines would not have sat back & waited during the HH) so he tried to get rid of them and waited for the outcome of the HH... when those (that were in command) back on the rock found out about these matters it kicked off big time....

if so it suggests that the Emp dispersed the black marines to save the truth.... chaos did not spread them about the galaxy... afterall he is the 5th greater power in the 40k universe... he could do that back then...

n e way - thats the old version as i believe and ive been involved with chats about back at the HQ in my time there with some of the big wigs.... (quite a while ago!!) - it may well not be right according to rewitten history (or even back then !!), but it makes sense in many ways

How is this supposed to make sence in any way?

Pre-heresy Dark Angels (all in black armour) were from Caliban and any Dark Angel inducted from any planet during the great crusade would be in black armour.

The 'american indian' planet, Plains World, became a recruitment world after the fall of Caliban, this is where the feather imagery comes from, it was lost to genestealer infestation which occured sometime between the then recruitment attempt and the one previously a 50 years before.

The Emperor wouldn't have talked to the fallen seeing as at the time of the fall of Caliban, the Emperor was on the Golden Throne.

Lion El'Jonson didn't choose who to keep or what they looked like as he was dead/(secretly asleep in the bowels of the rock). The change in armour colours occured after the fall of Caliban.

The only real contravery (although it is aluded to by Luther's ramblings) is that Luther might actually be innocent and that it is actually Chapter Master Astelan who lead the fallen.

I think what he meant was that in older, now retconned fluff, their recruiting world was native-american-themed.

The idea that the Fallen are actually those DA who were loyal to the emperor and that the fall of Caliban was intended by Johnson to stop them from telling the imperium of his heresy - waiting to see the outcome of the war - is a reasonable one, though. And while the emperor was already on the golden throne then, he was still in the warp - and still is. So he might have helped them escape.

But Jonson wasn't waiting to see who won and the fluff he may be using (no actual evidence) is well over twenty years old and fully retconned.

What makes you so sure he was not waiting to see who won? I think Astelans arguments in Angels of Darkness are quite convincing - and Asmodai seems to not be shocked by what Astelan said, so to me it looks as though Astelans story is true and that is the bit of information only the top tier of the inner circle know.

The only DA fluff I haven't read yet are the novels from the HH series dealing with them, is there anything in them that disproves this theory?

The Dark Angels had to fight through the Night Lords to get to Terra, seeing as they were fighting through troops allied to Horus i don't really see how Jonson could be 'just sitting on the fence'.

I would take Asmodai's reaction as being 'a twisted mind of a fallen is full of lies and the works of chaos', seeing as Astelan is a fallen why would Asmodai be suprised by Astelan trying to blame Jonson.

BluntmanDC wrote:The Dark Angels had to fight through the Night Lords to get to Terra, seeing as they were fighting through troops allied to Horus i don't really see how Jonson could be 'just sitting on the fence'.

That, and according to GW, Johnson had Russ with him. He couldn't exactly "see who would win" with Russ right there, already mad because the Lion's tactic of subjugating the planets between where they met up and Earth so that Horus wouldn't have support was taking too long. Hell, it's half the reason there's a feud between DA and Wolves.

Astelan was simply telling the same lies he told to turn the Fallen to Chaos the first time. Hell, IIRC, when GW mentioned that some Fallen cast aside their armor and weapon to hide and take up simple lives helping small communities, it's out of repentance and remorse for what they did. Why would they feel remorse if they were the ones betrayed and loyal?

Hm. This is fluff from the HH novels? I liked the other version more, but oh well. Cannot have everything.

Although - maybe Jonson was stalling by insisting on subjugating the other worlds so that they wouldn't reach Terra in time. And that way he'd look loyal to the emperor, but could just as well tell Horus he was trying to keep the space wolves back in case Horus won.

But yeah, that is kind of constructed.

There are many ways to create a "dark secret".
Perhaps they annihilated their original homeworld for a perceived heresy that in fact didn't exist?
Or their recruitment methods and or recruitment populations are not within acceptable limits ( Chaos cults are permited to exist to create a perpetual war on the chapterworld, blood sacrifices to the emprah..., there are lots of possible deviancies ).
They could simply allow unusual mutations within the chapter, a bit like the Black Dragons. The use of forbidden technology ( AIs? Xeno tech? ) is also possible.

Skylifter wrote:Hm. This is fluff from the HH novels? I liked the other version more, but oh well. Cannot have everything.

Although - maybe Jonson was stalling by insisting on subjugating the other worlds so that they wouldn't reach Terra in time. And that way he'd look loyal to the emperor, but could just as well tell Horus he was trying to keep the space wolves back in case Horus won.

But yeah, that is kind of constructed.

Nope, my fluff comes from Codeci and White Dwarf(back when they'd have entire stories and articles purely on fluff).

I don't hold BL books in as high regard for fluff as stuff printed by the Studio.

Do you know which codex that was? I have all three DA codices, although I haven't read the 2nd ed one in roughly ten years - and the 4th ed one doesn't say anything about what happened during the heresy. 3rd ed one does not have any fluff to speak about, IIRC.

And KingDeath: cool ideas, I think I'll keep them in mind just in case I don't want them to be deviating DA successors after all.

Skylifter wrote:Do you know which codex that was? I have all three DA codices, although I haven't read the 2nd ed one in roughly ten years - and the 4th ed one doesn't say anything about what happened during the heresy. 3rd ed one does not have any fluff to speak about, IIRC.

The Lion and Russ stuff is from White Dwarf. Somewhere between US issues 150 and 300. Unfortunately, my parents tossed them when I moved out, or I'd point you to an issue number.

As for Fallen attempting to reintegrate, I'd have to check(though I have a feeling either DA 3rd ed or the 1st Chaos 3rd ed in Cypher's fluff).

Meh, the good thing is, both things may be 'true' then, so it keeps the whole matter somewhat mysterious, which I think is good.

BluntmanDC wrote:Pre-heresy Dark Angels (all in black armour) were from Caliban and any Dark Angel inducted from any planet during the great crusade would be in black armour.

The 'american indian' planet, Plains World, became a recruitment world after the fall of Caliban, this is where the feather imagery comes from, it was lost to genestealer infestation which occured sometime between the then recruitment attempt and the one previously a 50 years before.

The Emperor wouldn't have talked to the fallen seeing as at the time of the fall of Caliban, the Emperor was on the Golden Throne.

Lion El'Jonson didn't choose who to keep or what they looked like as he was dead/(secretly asleep in the bowels of the rock). The change in armour colours occured after the fall of Caliban.

---
im prety sure that when the emp came to say hello to johnson for the 1st time (on caliban) - he had his 1st leigon with him (the original DAs) - and they were in black when they arrived on caliban.....

he then gave them to johnson.....

later - while in space on a battlebarge, 2 marine vets - 1 from each side - had a conversation in which the original marine slated the new choice of green - the caliban marine stated that they were to wear green to remember the green of the caliban jungles that were destroyed by the order while beast hunting... johnsons orders were to change to green....
so i think that thats where the colours come from...
anyone else read these books? im pretty sure this was all in the HH pair of DA novels....

this takes place well before the fall of caliban - as im sure this conversation (above) is in the hh novels but the fall hasnt happened in the hh novel series yet.....

also - after the fall of caliban (ie when just considering the caliban born marines - who all now wear green due to johnsons request) i havent found any mention of an indian name for a marine or face in any imagery...

I did the same thing with my Dark Angel force but I used the Death Wing color variant of black and white, my Dark Angels have since turned chaos and took on Black and Red with Gold fringe of the Black Legion. A story line thats on going with my two opponents both Space Wolfs (Hated Enemy) as I face them every week end. Now as I start on my Renagade Guard as allies, my force just gets bigger and I am attempting to paint my Mark II Thunderhawk in the same colors. Its hard as my airbrush is clogged up with paint and attempting to clean.

BluntmanDC wrote:The Dark Angels had to fight through the Night Lords to get to Terra, seeing as they were fighting through troops allied to Horus i don't really see how Jonson could be 'just sitting on the fence'.

its not happened in the hh novels yet but id bet my last doughnut that its the original non caliban DAs that are 'sent' to fight the nightlords by johnson... to make a show of trying to get to terra while he sat on the fence - added plus - getting the old DA numbers down for free.. ...

DB wrote:
wrt the indian homeworld - the way i see it (tho i may be wrong) is that this was where the marines that arrived on caliban with the emp (to say hi to johnson) came from. much later on...., johnson let cloudrunner and his crew go it along on that planet unaided (just b4 the fall - when they all fell out)

Maybe get off this indian homweworld thing, it will not return.
The Emperor created the space marines at Terra without the Primarchs around and took off into the crusade with these marines from Terra.
Nowhere does any background of any Legion state he stopped somewhere to take aspirants on board.
The HH explicitly shows the divide between Terra born marines and caliban born marines.

1hadhq wrote:

The Emperor created the space marines at Terra without the Primarchs around and took off into the crusade with these marines from Terra.
...
The HH explicitly shows the divide between Terra born marines and caliban born marines.

that rings a bell actually so the black armour marines came from terra? - that makes sense - well at least i DID say i may be wrong about that bit eh....

but i think the rest is right.... but who knows.. i think that the BL team will change it to suit the new script better anyways, afterall they now need to fit all the chapters like a huge jigsaw novel..

Now, getting this back on track, here is a more detailed idea for my chapter's background. Comments, ideas, and criticism are appreciated.

Aaaand I really need help finding a name, too.

- scheme and chapter symbol as in the first post
- Common icons include the red templar cross, swords, wings, and the Dark Angel chapter icon.
- There's generally a lot of the holy-ish looking bits and bobs, like incense, scrolls, parchments, purity seals, and I want some models to have braziers on their backpacks.
- Veteran Marines often wear tabards and robes.


History and characteristics, a bit mixed up

- DA successor chapter, cadre from the Guardians of the Covenant (for their especially monastic character, supporting the new chapter's piety)
- Homeworld populated by deeply religious people --> the chapter believes in the divinity of the emperor
- Due to that strong religious aspect, the chapter crusade a lot

- When the supreme grand master of the Dark Angels (of that time) orders them to withdraw their forces from a major conflict to support the DA in hunting a small group of Fallen, the chapter's grand master refuses, reasoning that 1. the chance of his support making a difference in the hunt is small, 2. the whole crusade would falter without them and 3. committing a new sin to hush up an old one won't do before the omniscient judgement of the emperor.
- That hunt is a disaster, the chapter's grand master is summoned to the rock. He explains his reasoning to the supreme grand master, but is judged a heretic by the latter, and executed as such.
- News of that reach the chapter via a Master of the Dark Angels chapter, who is sent to take command of the chapter because the supreme grand master does not trust the former grand master's designated successor to be loyal.
- The chapter's masters however rally behind that designated successor, overwhelm the Dark Angel and send him back to The Rock via the next rogue trader with a message that the chapter will not continue committing more sins in order to cover up an old sin and that they consider the Dark Angel chapter heretics and traitors.
- Contingents of the Dark Angels and several successors attack the chapter's homeworld in order to destroy them; the chapter asks an other, 'normal' chapter for help, the DA try to destroy those, too, still trying to cover it all up, but when a second chapter comes to assist and my chapter threatens to reveal the DA secret, the DA accept a truce.

- Said truce says that my chapter will not tell anyone of the secret, but will continue keeping that secret via several ranks of initiation, both as the chapter's tradition and as a safety against further DA aggression. They will not otherwise meddle in Unforgiven affairs anymore.

- The chapter now consider themselves the only loyal remnant of the 1. Legion. To make up for the DA legion's sins in their own way, they decide to embark on an eternal crusade of penitence, each strike force only visiting their homeworld for resupply and repairs, and for taking on new recruits.
- Since they do not hunt for the Fallen anymore, they do not employ Death- or Ravenwing formations, but follow the codex organisation pattern in this regard.



Name

Now one of the first things I want to do is give them a name; however, most names I made up do not sound right. But since their chapter symbol is a cross, and they are a DA successor, things with "cross", "angels", and anything alluding to redemption, crusading or the divinity of the emperor could fit. On the other hand, the crusading and divinity part would not have been known to the founders - who would have chosen the name. I am open for any ideas, really. I want a name that sounds good and does a cool, holy-ish, crusading chapter justice.