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Hey,

When I was making an army list, I noticed that the IG veterans have the option to take 3 flamers and 1 heavy flamer.
So I can take 4 flamers per group?
Or is the Heavy Flamer an upgraded version of the Heavy Flamer?
Might be a stupid question, but better save then sorry...

Thanks,
Loner

Yeah, it's possible. 3 normal + 1 heavy.

Allright, problem solved!
Thank you, now I can continue to edit my list!

The Codex states that 3 veterans may have a special weapon. The list has both the flamer and heavy flamer in it, meaning that a maximum of 3 flamers (2 normal and one heavy) may be taken be a vet squad.

A platoon or company command squad can take up to four special weapons and/or one member armed with a heavy flamer.

alphaomega wrote:The Codex states that 3 veterans may have a special weapon. The list has both the flamer and heavy flamer in it, meaning that a maximum of 3 flamers (2 normal and one heavy) may be taken be a vet squad.

A platoon or company command squad can take up to four special weapons and/or one member armed with a heavy flamer.

This is correct. Valkyrie is mistaken.

3 Veterans can upgrade to a special weapon. It is NOT 3 of each special weapon.

So, you can have 3 Flamers OR 2 Flamers and 1 Heavy Flamer OR lots of other loadouts.

On a side note to this, combined the 2 Flamers and Heavy Flamer with demolitions.

Give you a unit capable of smashing BA Land Raiders. And also effective against hordes of Orks too.

and before you get curious:
NO, Heavy Flamer is NOT operated by a heavy weapon team, it is a one-man rig.
YES, Heavy Flamer is an assault weapon, mercifully.

I really really really would not drop demo charges on a vet squad, it attracts too much attention, and once you lose enough models, then the squad is lost. If the squad gets a chance to use melta-bombs, then the SM player has done something horibly horribly horribly wrong. =D

poda_t wrote:and before you get curious:
NO, Heavy Flamer is NOT operated by a heavy weapon team, it is a one-man rig.
YES, Heavy Flamer is an assault weapon, mercifully.

I really really really would not drop demo charges on a vet squad, it attracts too much attention, and once you lose enough models, then the squad is lost. If the squad gets a chance to use melta-bombs, then the SM player has done something horibly horribly horribly wrong. =D

Lol, Having a similar squad, and having used it to take down Land Raiders in my local stores about 4 times now, I find it works a treat. 130 points that just look blend into the other squads tends to be a nasty move...

Wouldn't SWS with 3 flamers and a democharge be better?
That is 70 points. You can get two for the price of one veteran squad.

loner wrote:Wouldn't SWS with 3 flamers and a democharge be better?
That is 70 points. You can get two for the price of one veteran squad.

You could have two flamers and Demo Charge.
But you need the platoon too so you have to factor in another 130 points.

loner wrote:Wouldn't SWS with 3 flamers and a democharge be better?
That is 70 points. You can get two for the price of one veteran squad.

Two flamers and a demo charge.

If you already have a platoon then they're okay. Not being able to buy them a transport hurts them. They need to go in a valk or hi-jack someone else's chimera.

It's also worth noting that they do not have frag grenades so if you were going to flame and charge an enemy in cover then they're even worse than usual guardsmen.

I think the confusion of the initial posters stems from the CCS entry; which has the Heavy Flamer and the rest of the Special weapons in separate entries(for no apparent reason).

As to the Flamer/Heavy flamer choice; ask yourself this: is +1 Str, and -1 AP really worth an extra 15 points? Also note to yourself that nearly every vehicle can get a Heavy Flamer for Free, Infantry pay 20 points for one; just think about that for a minute.

Its pretty much not worth it. Only reason to take it is if you are going against space marines to taunt that you can take something that they cannot.

Space marines can Take heavy Flamers, heck they can have 2 of them in a 5 man squad, and at half the cost of the Guard versions(well for the Heavy Flamers themselves). If you take Pedro those squads can even be scoring.

Grakmar wrote:So, you can have 3 Flamers OR 2 Flamers and 1 Heavy Flamer OR lots of other loadouts.

Lots, and lots of other loadouts.

Seriously, 2x flamers + heavy flamer is just about the worst loadout for a vet squad...

Kommissar Kel wrote:Space marines can Take heavy Flamers, heck they can have 2 of them in a 5 man squad, and at half the cost of the Guard versions(well for the Heavy Flamers themselves). If you take Pedro those squads can even be scoring.

hmm someone at the game store was bitching about his marines not being able to take heavy flamers. Must have been wrong.

Sternguard have the option.
Otherwise, Terminators have them.


Only non-vehicle units able to take them.

chromedog wrote:Sternguard have the option.
Otherwise, Terminators have them.


Only non-vehicle units able to take them.

And Legion of the damned; but they are relentless, and expensive, so if you were going to take them you would want a better Heavy weapon.

Take ACTUAL heavy weapons on the damned legion.

Assault weapons are kinda wasted on a relentless unit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I think the confusion of the initial posters stems from the CCS entry; which has the Heavy Flamer and the rest of the Special weapons in separate entries(for no apparent reason).

As to the Flamer/Heavy flamer choice; ask yourself this: is +1 Str, and -1 AP really worth an extra 15 points? Also note to yourself that nearly every vehicle can get a Heavy Flamer for Free, Infantry pay 20 points for one; just think about that for a minute.

yes, lets think about this. Lets not drop another heavy flamer inside the chimera and prevent ourselves from getting a stronger shooting attack, lets not give ourselves a better chance of successfully wounding enemy models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Space marines can Take heavy Flamers, heck they can have 2 of them in a 5 man squad, and at half the cost of the Guard versions(well for the Heavy Flamers themselves). If you take Pedro those squads can even be scoring.

awesome, except, how does this contribute to the thread topic beyond a complaint of weapon expense?

Fine, Sternguard Heavy Flamers are half the cost of IG heavy flamers. But Sternguard are replacing bolters (aproximately 2 points from the IG codex. Then there is the fact that the marine also has specialist ammunition. Because the codex distinguishes between bolt gun and bolt pistol, you lose the specialist ammunition too. Some models may take hellfire rounds, an upgrade valued at 10 points. So, now we are at 12 points for their bolter, with an additional 10 points to replace the bolter. In the end, that heavy flamer cost something around 22 points.... So.... the heavy flamers being half the cost of IG heavy flamers is simply not true, because they are replacing a weapon that already has a cost associated with it. Because they are both on the imperial table, costs can be compared. It is my firm belief that Sternguard are sexy enough the way they are and do not need to take anything because their specialist ammunition already does so much.

The imperial guard Heavy Flamer is cheaper. Now an IG storm bolter is 10 points (vehicles only) and in the marine codex its 3 points. Accounting for the fact that bolt-guns must be purchased by IG but are free trades for marines who have bolt pistols, and bolt pistols and boltguns both cost 2 points in the guard codex, we can postulate the storm bolter is 5 points. So when a terminator pays 5 points for a heavy flamer, the cost works out to 10 points, which is quite cheap.

poda_t wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I think the confusion of the initial posters stems from the CCS entry; which has the Heavy Flamer and the rest of the Special weapons in separate entries(for no apparent reason).

As to the Flamer/Heavy flamer choice; ask yourself this: is +1 Str, and -1 AP really worth an extra 15 points? Also note to yourself that nearly every vehicle can get a Heavy Flamer for Free, Infantry pay 20 points for one; just think about that for a minute.

yes, lets think about this. Lets not drop another heavy flamer inside the chimera and prevent ourselves from getting a stronger shooting attack, lets not give ourselves a better chance of successfully wounding enemy models.

Sure, spend 4X the cost of a flamer for the slightly increased chance to wound; lets take those points away from someone else who could use them to bring down other units. Every infantryman who can take a heavy Flamer in the guard comes in units that can take more than 1 special weapon. You can go ahead and blow 20 points for that 1 S5 Template, while I spend 15 for 3 S4 templates, and leave the S5 templates on my vehicles for free.

poda_t wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:Space marines can Take heavy Flamers, heck they can have 2 of them in a 5 man squad, and at half the cost of the Guard versions(well for the Heavy Flamers themselves). If you take Pedro those squads can even be scoring.

awesome, except, how does this contribute to the thread topic beyond a complaint of weapon expense?

Fine, Sternguard Heavy Flamers are half the cost of IG heavy flamers. But Sternguard are replacing bolters (aproximately 2 points from the IG codex. Then there is the fact that the marine also has specialist ammunition. Because the codex distinguishes between bolt gun and bolt pistol, you lose the specialist ammunition too. Some models may take hellfire rounds, an upgrade valued at 10 points. So, now we are at 12 points for their bolter, with an additional 10 points to replace the bolter. In the end, that heavy flamer cost something around 22 points.... So.... the heavy flamers being half the cost of IG heavy flamers is simply not true, because they are replacing a weapon that already has a cost associated with it. Because they are both on the imperial table, costs can be compared. It is my firm belief that Sternguard are sexy enough the way they are and do not need to take anything because their specialist ammunition already does so much.

The imperial guard Heavy Flamer is cheaper. Now an IG storm bolter is 10 points (vehicles only) and in the marine codex its 3 points. Accounting for the fact that bolt-guns must be purchased by IG but are free trades for marines who have bolt pistols, and bolt pistols and boltguns both cost 2 points in the guard codex, we can postulate the storm bolter is 5 points. So when a terminator pays 5 points for a heavy flamer, the cost works out to 10 points, which is quite cheap.

First off this post was a reply to Walrus, i didn't say it was a good idea, I said it could be done. Second hellfire rounds(and all other Specialist ammo) is built into the cost of the sternguard themselves. In fact if you look at the cost of hellfire rounds you will se that they are not effectively 10 free points with the bolter for the Sternguard. Sternguard are BS4; every one who can take hellfire rounds are BS5. Ballistic skill plays into points cost.

Oh, so ballistic skill counts into it. So too does the WS. And the T. And the W, I Ld etc. But they als come with gear. Its one of the reasons why sternguard are 25ppm and veteran guard are 7ppm. I am really not that concerned with giving a guardsmen a 20 point weapon because on the grand scale of things its not that expensive.

Alright, fine, now how many templates can you squeeze if you are guard? If the unit is already riding in a vehicle, it is worth the 15 points to upgrade the flamer to a heavy flamer. You're telling me you'd take more soft units than give them a weapon with more bite. If you can guarantee better odds of wounding and more instances of armor penetration, then it would be well advised to go for it. So what if the vehicle has a heavy flamer. Take another one for the squad riding it.

DakkaDakka wrote:

I'll take that challenge.

Veteran guard unit w 3 Flamers vs Veteran guard unit with 1 Heavy Flamer(granting the HF unit the free 5 extra points).

We will assume all template hit 4 models.

3 Flamers hit then 12 models total, against T3 models that equates to 9 wounds, 6 wounds vs T4.

Heavy Flamer hits 4 models, against t3 that is 3.333 wounds, 2.666 wounds vs t4.

Against a 4+ save the 3 flamers get 4.5 unsaved wounds on t3, and 3 unsaved wounds on t4.

Against 4+ saves the heavy flamer scores 3.333 unsaved wounds on t3, and 2.666 unsaved wounds on t4.

Against 3+ saves the 3 flamers score 3 unsaved t3 wounds, or 2 unsaved t4 wounds.

Against 3+ saves the Heavy flamer scores 1.111 unsaved wound, or .888 unsaved t4 wounds.

Looks like it is more worth it for your heavy Flamer capable squads to just carry more Flamers instead.

If you are playing IG you should know that quality of shots is not nearly as useful as quantity of shots; especially if you can get 4x the number of shots for the same cost as a slightly better option.

if guard had a man-portable Flamestorm cannon, i would pay 20 points for it, but I will not pay that much for a heavy Flamer.

Also just to make a point, the other 2 squads capable of taking heavy flamers(Company and platoon command squads) can take 4 flamers themselves, so for the exact same cost as a Company or platoon command squad with a heavy flamer i can take the same squad with 4 flamers killing quite a bit more of any target I level those flamers against.

Also Chimeras allow 5 models to fire from their hatch, so 4 flamers can fire at the same time, vs the 1 heavy flamer for the same cost.

Okay, and why would you not buy the additional flamers exactly?

If you want to make this statistical, then don't even bloody bother with the flamers. take the absolute basics in necessity force organization, and for the rest, just take demolishers. Those have high statistical odds of hitting and killing whatever they are aimed at, ignore more armor and destroy infantry and tanks alike.

The point is is it worth it to take a heavy flamer in an infantry squad. the answer is a resounding yes. If you don't know who you're going to play, having the additional heavy flamers is a huge boon. I'd rather take two flamers and a heavy flamer because of the increased chance of wounds. I might only score one more wound, but hell, I dont know what situation im going to be using it in. Either I need that extra unsaved wound to force a morale check., or I need to level some odds before I get my ass run down in the coming assault.


If you can waste the points on two heavy flamers in a sternguard squad--who are probably better off with their stock bolters--then you sure as hell can waste the points upgrading one of the multiple flamers to a heavy flamer. It's well advised.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I'll take that challenge.

Veteran guard unit w 3 Flamers vs Veteran guard unit with 1 Heavy Flamer(granting the HF unit the free 5 extra points).

We will assume all template hit 4 models.

3 Flamers hit then 12 models total, against T3 models that equates to 9 wounds, 6 wounds vs T4.

Heavy Flamer hits 4 models, against t3 that is 3.333 wounds, 2.666 wounds vs t4.

Against a 4+ save the 3 flamers get 4.5 unsaved wounds on t3, and 3 unsaved wounds on t4.

Against 4+ saves the heavy flamer scores 3.333 unsaved wounds on t3, and 2.666 unsaved wounds on t4.

Against 3+ saves the 3 flamers score 3 unsaved t3 wounds, or 2 unsaved t4 wounds.

Against 3+ saves the Heavy flamer scores 1.111 unsaved wound, or .888 unsaved t4 wounds.

Looks like it is more worth it for your heavy Flamer capable squads to just carry more Flamers instead.

If you are playing IG you should know that quality of shots is not nearly as useful as quantity of shots; especially if you can get 4x the number of shots for the same cost as a slightly better option.

I don't doubt you're right, but for a truly fair comparison I think you need to take into account the other weapons in the HF unit, i.e. 1 HF and 2 rapid firing lasguns vs. 3 flamers - that makes it like for like

DakkaDakka wrote:

Ulver wrote:
I don't doubt you're right, but for a truly fair comparison I think you need to take into account the other weapons in the HF unit, i.e. 1 HF and 2 rapid firing lasguns vs. 3 flamers - that makes it like for like

ehhh, i disagree because lasguns cannot assault once they shoot, so it doesnt quite compare. Sure, assaulting with guardsmen tends to be a bad idea, but its a better idea than letting them be assaulted.

and no, im not talking about command squads. I am talking only about vets.

This thread has gone off topic for the YMDC forum.

As the original rules query seems to have been answered, I am transferring the tread to 40K Tactics.

15 extra points is not worth it over a regular flamer. end of story. I like the models, but they are just NOT able to make their points back. Especially when a very similar option is available for 75% cheaper.