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Hi, noob here. me and a couple friends recently started playing 40K, and I've got two quick questions.

1) Are there any rules restricting the usage of special characters outside of the normal force organization rules? Like, "all players must agree upon their usage" or something? I'm coming from an old-school fantasy mindset where special characters were way, way, way broken.

2) Are there any similar rules regarding restrictions on using allies? As in, fielding models from other armies, like Space Marines in your IG army.

Thanks!

Tangent wrote:Hi, noob here. me and a couple friends recently started playing 40K, and I've got two quick questions.

1) Are there any rules restricting the usage of special characters outside of the normal force organization rules? Like, "all players must agree upon their usage" or something? I'm coming from an old-school fantasy mindset where special characters were way, way, way broken.

2) Are there any similar rules regarding restrictions on using allies? As in, fielding models from other armies, like Space Marines in your IG army.

Thanks!

There used to be, in both cases, but now. . .

1) In about 99% of cases, no. I believe Necrons are the only army still that have a restriction on their units. I believe the C'tan can only be used in armies of 1500 pts. or more, but I could be wrong.

2) Allies were taken out of 40K long ago. There used to be a time when you could field Eldar and Space Marines together. No longer. However, Witchhunters and Daemonhunters (for a short time) have the ability to field Inducted units. This is to say that Witchhunters/Daemonhunters can be used in conjunction with the armies listed in their respective codices. Other than those two Codices, however, allies have gone the way of the Squats.

1) Nope- some of the older codexes still have points restrictions (Witchhunters and Daemonhunters come to mind).

Barring that, all SCs are now standard use.

2) In friendly games- play what you want!
For tournament play, there's usually a restriction on using things from your own codex.

In "regular" games, as long as your opponent is okay with it, any combination you want to run should be fine.

If you want to use 'allies' (outside of Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters) then you need to play games of Apocalypse where you're able to take any unit from any codex in your force.

Ok, so, any special characters are good as long as they follow the normal force organization restrictions, and allies from other armies than the one you're playing are not allowed unless it specifically says so in your codex. Cool.

Is there a source for this info? Not that I don't trust you guys, but I looked all over the rulebook for it and couldn't find it. Or is it one of those things where if it does NOT say that it IS allowed, it is assumed to be NOT allowed?

The rules, in general, tell you waht you CAN do.

The rulebook tells you you can use a codex to create your army, and nothing more than that.

Tangent wrote:Ok, so, any special characters are good as long as they follow the normal force organization restrictions, and allies from other armies than the one you're playing are not allowed unless it specifically says so in your codex. Cool.

Is there a source for this info? Not that I don't trust you guys, but I looked all over the rulebook for it and couldn't find it. Or is it one of those things where if it does NOT say that it IS allowed, it is assumed to be NOT allowed?

Check out pages 86-87 of the rulebook for how to pick armies for your game, along with the 'XXX army list' page of the codex you're using to get a good idea about how constructing an army is done.

The only rules for allowing units from other codexes than the one you're using to make your army is in the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes and in the Apocalypse supplement.

yakface wrote:The only rules for allowing units from other codexes than the one you're using to make your army is in the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes and in the Apocalypse supplement.

Note, however, that in friendly games, whatever is allowed. I have a DE player who includes both a Vindicare assassin and IG Stormtroopers in his list from time to time. Doesn't bother me. If he wants to pay twice as much for troops that are half as effective, that's on him. But he has the models and enjoys doing it, so I don't mind.

TheRedArmy wrote:

yakface wrote:The only rules for allowing units from other codexes than the one you're using to make your army is in the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes and in the Apocalypse supplement.

Note, however, that in friendly games, whatever is allowed. I have a DE player who includes both a Vindicare assassin and IG Stormtroopers in his list from time to time. Doesn't bother me. If he wants to pay twice as much for troops that are half as effective, that's on him. But he has the models and enjoys doing it, so I don't mind.

That is an important thing to always remember. This is a GAME and if everyone involved with the game is okay with doing something out of the ordinary then you should never feel restricted by...well...anything!

yakface wrote:

TheRedArmy wrote:

yakface wrote:The only rules for allowing units from other codexes than the one you're using to make your army is in the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes and in the Apocalypse supplement.

Note, however, that in friendly games, whatever is allowed. I have a DE player who includes both a Vindicare assassin and IG Stormtroopers in his list from time to time. Doesn't bother me. If he wants to pay twice as much for troops that are half as effective, that's on him. But he has the models and enjoys doing it, so I don't mind.

That is an important thing to always remember. This is a GAME and if everyone involved with the game is okay with doing something out of the ordinary then you should never feel restricted by...well...anything!

I still have a dream of taking a force of unique characters across all kinds of codicies (Lillith, Marbo, Commander Shadowsun, etc.) and fighting a small, say 500-pt guard force allowing no vehicles but chimeras (and limited numbers of those). It sounds like a fun mission to have 3 guys taking on a whole battalion like that.

TheRedArmy wrote:

yakface wrote:The only rules for allowing units from other codexes than the one you're using to make your army is in the Daemonhunter and Witch Hunter codexes and in the Apocalypse supplement.

Note, however, that in friendly games, whatever is allowed. I have a DE player who includes both a Vindicare assassin and IG Stormtroopers in his list from time to time. Doesn't bother me. If he wants to pay twice as much for troops that are half as effective, that's on him. But he has the models and enjoys doing it, so I don't mind.

If you run troops from other codexes, they cost twice as much?

No, IG stormtroopers cost twice as much as DE warriors and are half as effective to boot, making them essentially 1/4 the value.

Ohhhh, I see. Uhhh... why would they cost so much if they're worse? Another noob question.

Tangent wrote:Ohhhh, I see. Uhhh... why would they cost so much if they're worse? Another noob question.

Three reasons:

1) Models are worth different amount of points in different armies because the make-up of the army as a whole. For example, cheap screening units in an army like Daemonhunters are worth more than what they can or can't actually kill because they provide a cheap(ish) screen for expensive grey knight units, for example.

2) As the game changes, the point values for certain types of units get changed. In 3rd edition when the Inquisitor codices were released basic troop models tended to cost more points. But in 4th edition there was a big push to make troops unit more integral to the game, so the cost of most basic troopers in every army tended to go down. When the new Inquisition codexes are finally released expect to see either a points drop on Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or an increase in the effectiveness of their gear (like they have in the IG codex).

3) Sometimes GW just blows it on costing a unit either too much or too little. For example, the stormtroopers in the IG codex are still too many points, especially considering that having a squad with AP3 weapons is less powerful in 5th edition then it ever has been before (with the preponderance of cover saves out there).

Tau special characters also have the "over 1500pts only" restriction.

That makes a lot of sense! How long has the newest edition been out? Since 2008? Any word on a 6th edition? How long do they usually wait before releasing another new edition?

And lastly, why do some armies have "1500 point restrictions" or whatever, and some don't? Are their special characters that much better or something?

The 1500pt restrictions are in older codexs. Generally the charaters are generally worse and more expensive than others in more recent codexs.

I don't think there has even been a wiff of 6th. 5ths only been out two years so its a bit early to be thinking about it IMO.

It's generally 4-5 years between editions.

The points limits is a left-over found in some of the oldest codexes - you'll only see it in codexes not updated since 3rd edition.

Special Characters are not uber-overpowered and are generally not frowned upon.

In the Vanilla space marine codex, all of the non-ultramarine chapter tactics (Salamanders, crimson fists, imperial fists, raven guard, white scars) are unlocked with special characters, thus adding flavor and varity to the codex.

So are there any special characters that DO seem overpowered? Anything to watch out for?

Some feel that Vulcan He'stan is overpowered but mainly for what his Chapter tactics does and because lists with him tend to include TH/SS Termies mounted in Redeemers.

Even though the redeemers themselves dont benefit..

Lysander is a VERY tough nut to crack (4W, from memory, storm shield AND eternal warrior) but is the traditional "hammer" unit.

Mephiston is crazy. MC stats on a 25mm base. Oh, and he can be S10. And fly.

Lysander isn't that hard to get rid of.

He gets spawned a lot around here.

At least mephiston is not an IC and can't hide inside a squad.

However he can ride in a rhino, if he wants, and the official model is sooo tiny you can hide him pretty much anywheere. Jump packing behind fast razorbacks seems the optimal route for him.

Cool. The only guy that's being used right now is Marbo with our IG player.

Well thanks a lot for the help guys.

I was under the impression in the 5th edition rules that if you wanted to run allies, you had to run two separate army lists. I have Imperial guard and Space Wolves and when I looked into it, I would have to split the points up however I wanted but still follow the standard army list. So, each army has to have a HQ, 2 basic units and so forth and all restrictions apply. Also the races have to be able to ally.

This limits you because back in the day with my space wolves I used to just ally Guard so I could toss a Leman Russ Tank on the field.

Generally speaking there are not rules in place to ally any armies other than WH and DH. Both those codexes make provision for both including allies in their army and for including them in other armies.

calypso2ts wrote:Generally speaking there are not rules in place to ally any armies other than WH and DH. Both those codexes make provision for both including allies in their army and for including them in other armies.

There are no rules for it, therefore it has to be a separate army list. You cannot take 25% of your allies. However, if you are playing a 3,000 point game and want to do 1500 points marines and 1500 points imperial guard, each army with their own HQ and own list versus 3,000 points of chaos, I don't see a problem with it.

You are still subjected to the army list rules though. Otherwise according to the rules it will always be 1 v 1 and always be 1 army v 1 army. If you use two separate army lists it isn't allies as much as it is 2 smaller armies fighting one bigger army.

I guess maybe this can be seen as more of a house rule.

Yeah, total house rule. From what I understand and read (now that I've gone back and read more of the rulebook), there just aren't any rules talking about using allies in the main rulebook. You can make up whatever rules you want and use them, though.

As per the following post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules, in general, tell you what you CAN do.

The rulebook tells you you can use a codex to create your army, and nothing more than that.