Carnifex Questions and all things Tyranid related

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**Lord of Death Mountain**

The question that I have is about the Tyranid Carnifex. Question: I have two of the Forgeworld "Stone Crusher Carnifex with wrecking ball" and one of the Forgeworld "Stone Crusher Carnifex with wrecking claws" I realize that all Carnifexes in a single brood must have the same options and was wondering in a normal Warhammer 40K game which options / weapons would you suggest would be suitable to apply to all three Carnifex as wrecking balls and wrecking claws are not mentioned in the tyranid codex ??? The closest thing mentioned in the codex is "Crushing Claws" where it states as an option "Replace one set of scything talons with "Crushing Claws" @ 25 points per model. Please Note: The Forge World models do not allow any secondary limbs / scything talons as the Wrecking Ball and Wrecking Claws take up both limb sockets on the model. (Carnifex was always a mad looking model, but with the extra Forge World parts they look awesome).

**SagesStone**

Why not split the broods?

**Lord of Death Mountain**

Thanks n0t_u, Yeah, there is always that option of splitting them up. I guess I am more confused as to which options / weapons would be suitable to apply to them.

**Just Dave**

Actually, I'd opt for keeping them in one brood and having 2 Trygons on top of them!

As far as I can tell, Crushing Claws aren't recommend on Carnfexes, so I'd probably opt for the cheap and simple/bog standard build. I can't imagine your opponent would mind AT ALL, particularly so long as you tell him before hand.

**Lord of Death Mountain**

Interesting, thanks Just Dave.
As in have them with two sets of scything talons each (standard equip). That is possibly the way to go, keeps the points down.
As with the Trygons, I was lucky enough to buy two of the Forge World Trygons of e-bay. They look crazy, heaps of detail.
I have a GW Mawloc which I recently built so was able to compare the Forge World vs GW.

**Just Dave**

Aww Nice! Helluva catch there man. But yeah, I'd personally say a Brood of Two Carnifexes (Carnifi?!) with Scything Talons each, support by two Trygons would be nasty. Very nasty.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Stone Crusher Carnifex variants are Forge World have rules published in the Imperial Armour books, so you should probably check there for their rules. Carnifexes in general should just have Scything Talons and rush at the enemy. This way they make the most of their attacks. Shooting is not really a good position, unless you go with two sets of Twin-linked Devourers, and other units can do that for less points.

**Kroothawk**

Story behind this: The siege carnifex was created for Imperial Armour 4 (with rules in the book) before there were broods of Carnifexes.
Today, you can make whole broods of carnifexes, but most people wouldnt even use ONE with the current rules and point costs.

**Lord of Death Mountain**

I agree Just Dave the Carny's with the Trygon's will be very Nasty and that is what Tyranids are all about I guess.
Nasty = The bases on all models are littered with Cadian Soldier corpses, cadians being ripped apart, squished, rippers bursting out of chests, the works. ver nice.

Thanks for the info MechaEmperor7000, at this stage I am going with the Scything Talons. I am still going to have the models with the Wrecking Balls / Wrecking Claws as they look so mean that way. I guess I will just have to explain to any opponents / meals that all Carny's have Scything Talons.

Kroothawk thanks for the background / history, that is very interesting.

**omgnowaiii**

Carnifexes still have a place in 40k with the 'Nid codex. Despite the high points cost for such a model, they still do what they have always done.

They provide a huge distraction for the enemy, they can munch tanks like nothing else, and can still survive after an army shooting at them.

I regularly field one in 1200 point games, just stock standard, and he always makes his points back directly, ie by taking out heaps of stuff, but he also works indirectly. Put him up the front, get the enemy to focus on him, then leap forwards with heaps of little, gribbly gaunts.

People underestimate them so much, that they forget how much raw damage they can actually do.

Only upgrades I see worthy on them though are Crushing claws if you plan to get charged, and Bio Plasma if the enemy is bunched up a bit.

The guns are a waste imo, I don't like them for what they do and they cost too many points.

**SumYungGui**

omgnowaiii wrote:Carnifexes still have a place in 40k with the 'Nid codex. Despite the high points cost for such a model, they still do what they have always done.

They provide a huge distraction for the enemy, they can munch tanks like nothing else, and can still survive after an army shooting at them.
...
People underestimate them so much, that they forget how much raw damage they can actually do.
...

Add 2 WS, 2 wounds, 3 initiative, 2 attacks, 3 leadership and built in dual scything talons with decent shooting and built in safe deep striking then take off about 50 points per model for similar equipment and 3 str. Put it in the same FOC slot, give it the same monstrous creature rules and some broken tunnel reinforcements rule that nobody even remembers as well as the option to make it a synapse creature and double it's shooting for those points you took off earlier. Edit: forgot to give him the Fleet of Whatever rule.

No he does not have a place.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I concur. Trygons completely superceded Fexes in the close combat department. The only thing a Fex does better than a Trygon is poping Monoliths (and only monoliths).

For shooting, the similarly priced Tyrannofex does it better. 3 weapons, with one that is effectively a raider popper (and auto-glances Rhinos and Autopens Chimeras on the side). The only reason to take fexes is if you've already maxed out Tervigons and Hive Tyrants, but want more MCs in your list.

**Mr Gold**

Yeah right, try to kill any T8 or 9 creature with S6 and you will feel the pain.

Carnifex's strength is its, well, high strength value S9, and the ability to take them as a brood now.

**MechaEmperor7000**

There isnt a T9 creature in the main game (not quite sure about apocalypse), and there are currently only 3 T8 creatures, the C'tans and Wraithlords. For tackling Wraithlords, a brood of Hormagaunts armed with Toxin Sacs can do the job much cheaper than a brood of carnifexes or trygons. Trygons also have more attacks, higher WS, and (with Adrenal Glands) higher Initative. In addition it also has a ranged weapon to soften up the Wraithlord. Dont even try a C'tan with a Fex. It can kill a Fex before the latter even reacts.

If there is an apoc creature with 8 or more toughness, then Trygons are still superior, because in addition to the perks it has already, there is now no limit to how many you can take.

**omgnowaiii**

SumYungGui wrote:Add 2 WS, 2 wounds, 3 initiative, 2 attacks, 3 leadership and built in dual scything talons with decent shooting and built in safe deep striking then take off about 50 points per model for similar equipment and 3 str. Put it in the same FOC slot, give it the same monstrous creature rules and some broken tunnel reinforcements rule that nobody even remembers as well as the option to make it a synapse creature and double it's shooting for those points you took off earlier. Edit: forgot to give him the Fleet of Whatever rule.

No he does not have a place.

In the 30 or so games I have used my Trygon, I have used its shooting attack a total of 2 times. It isn't that great of a weapon and can be made better by using warriors instead. Trygons are made to fleet and kill, not shoot.

Carnies may be slower than the Trygon, but is much better at popping tanks. Automatically penetrating rear armour 10 tanks? Hell yes I want to do that.

The other thing that a Carnie far excels the Trygon is attacking into cover. Would you throw your 200+ point Trygon against a unit in cover? Now you are I1 and getting smacked around by that unit. The Carnifex doesn't care about that, 165 points and suddenly the Carnifex has +2 initiative on the Trygon and eats the entire squad.

Both MCs will most likely survive a battle, while the Carnifex is made to pop tanks, the Trygon is built to take on infantry. Both have a place in the army. But doing different things. And yes I really want to pen a land raider on a 6 with 2 dice and 5 attacks.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Isnt initiative bonuses erased by charging into cover?

**Tzeentchling9**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Isnt initiative bonuses erased by charging into cover?

The Hivemind felt sorry for the Carnifex as the new Trygon was bullying it and gave it the one option that every Genestealer, Warrior, Ravener, Hormagaunt, Shrike, Broodlord, and Hive Tyant was screaming for: Offensive Grenades.

Thx, Cruddace, for making the common foliage the most deadly opponent for Tyranids.

**MechaEmperor7000**

oh wow totally forgot about that one. Although the Crushing Claws might come in handy in such situations.

**Tzeentchling9**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:oh wow totally forgot about that one. Although the Crushing Claws might come in handy in such situations.

Charging into cover? Only if you don't have the frag grenades since the claws make you fight at I1 regardless of Living Ram, Furious Charge, etc.

**-Loki-**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:There isnt a T9 creature in the main game (not quite sure about apocalypse), and there are currently only 3 T8 creatures, the C'tans and Wraithlords. For tackling Wraithlords, a brood of Hormagaunts armed with Toxin Sacs can do the job much cheaper than a brood of carnifexes or trygons. Trygons also have more attacks, higher WS, and (with Adrenal Glands) higher Initative. In addition it also has a ranged weapon to soften up the Wraithlord. Dont even try a C'tan with a Fex. It can kill a Fex before the latter even reacts.

If there is an apoc creature with 8 or more toughness, then Trygons are still superior, because in addition to the perks it has already, there is now no limit to how many you can take.

The only Apoc creature with T9 is the Hierophant.

T9, 2+ 5++ save, regeneration and 10 wounds. Unless you've got a lot of D strength weapons, the Hierophant isn't going down.

On top of that, it gets 2 lots of 8 S10, Ap3 48" range shots every turn. And it pretty beastly in assault.

Trygons aren't superior.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Trygon with Tox sacs would be just as good, without the initiative penalty. A fex in the opening round with Adrenal would be superior, but then it fades due to Adrenal only working on the charge.

**-Loki-**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Trygon with Tox sacs would be just as good, without the initiative penalty. A fex in the opening round with Adrenal would be superior, but then it fades due to Adrenal only working on the charge.

Except neither of them have the survivability. That T9, W10, 2+ 5++ armour save and regeneration really does wonders for the Hierophant sticking around more than one turn in apocalypse.

And neither of those throw out 16 S10, AP3 shots at 48" either.

**MechaEmperor7000**

slightly superior (like, 0.001% of a chance) but yeah I see your point. That does strike down one of the supposed things Fexes are better than Trygons tho.

**SumYungGui**

omgnowaiii wrote:In the 30 or so games I have used my Trygon, I have used its shooting attack a total of 2 times. It isn't that great of a weapon and can be made better by using warriors instead. Trygons are made to fleet and kill, not shoot.

I have no idea how this is possible. What exactly are you doing with your Trygons? You know they can shoot rear armor the turn they deep strike in right?

omgnowaiii wrote:Carnies may be slower than the Trygon, but is much better at popping tanks. Automatically penetrating rear armour 10 tanks? Hell yes I want to do that.

The other thing that a Carnie far excels the Trygon is attacking into cover. Would you throw your 200+ point Trygon against a unit in cover? Now you are I1 and getting smacked around by that unit. The Carnifex doesn't care about that, 165 points and suddenly the Carnifex has +2 initiative on the Trygon and eats the entire squad.

Both MCs will most likely survive a battle, while the Carnifex is made to pop tanks, the Trygon is built to take on infantry. Both have a place in the army. But doing different things. And yes I really want to pen a land raider on a 6 with 2 dice and 5 attacks.

Great. The Carnifex automatically penetrates rear armor on a light transport with his lower amount of attacks. That pretty much means means bunk when you are rolling to hit based on the vehicle's movement not your weapon skill (which the Trygon has more of anyway). The statistics difference isn't that large because the Trygon gets more attacks and free dual scything talons without removing his shooting attack and the same 2D6 penetration. Math-hammering it out the Trygon is pretty much right on par with the Carnie for vehicle cracking on the assault simply because you get to roll more often, even against your second example of a land raider. Plus he gets to shoot 6 or 12, depending, Str 6 shots against rear armor when he deep strikes in. I'll take that over two or three turns of stomping across the battlefield waiting for my four wounds to give out. Add to that his face-stomping approach to infantry in comparison to the Carnifex and again he loses out even with the assault grenades that many, many more units in an assault codex should have.

**MechaEmperor7000**

I would just like to point out that my Trygon's shooting has killed the following in the span of 3 games: 2 Destroyers, 2 Rhinos. For a weapon with a rather paultry AP and used by something with an average BS, that's still alot of damage.

**Lord of Death Mountain**

Do any of you field a Mawloc in your armies ??? I recently built the GW model and I have to say it is a very mean looking model. (Main Construction has been done but still a WorkInProg - I tilted the head on a slight angle and have a cadian being stabbed by one of the upper Talons, yes, with plenty of guts hanging out). I do not know if he will be added to the final army that I am going to field but I think there may be a position for him. (I like the idea that this massive worm type alien creature deep strikes into the action and eats soldiers whole, freakin badass).

**MechaEmperor7000**

Mawlocs are good at prolonged games and for "sniping" enemy units camping somewhere. Although once it comes onto the field, it pales in comparison to the trygon. It's main perk is jumping up and down and landing S6 AP2 templates everywhere.

**RxGhost**

The Mawloc is awesome, but it's best used as a shock unit. 5 man dev teams and clusters or Imperial heavy weapon squads etc, will just be demolished by this thing. It's alot like the Vindicare Assassin, it won't often kill its points back in most games, but it will kill the RIGHT points when you need it to. Plus, it's durable enough to take a crap-ton of shooting after it pops up and munches on stuff, so it's a good distraction as well. If you go first, start with it on the table and DIVE MY HAWKMEN the first turn so it pops up next turn.

Another thing about the Carnifex v Trygon that a lot of people seem to forget is: against Land Raiders, and we're seeing a lot of them these days, it is a HUGE difference between str 10+2d6 vs. 6+2d6. Also, the Carnifex insta kills T5 and less, have fun one-shotting Eldar, Trygons.

Honestly, they're both good units, but they're used for different things and they get played with differently. If you use a Carnifex like a Trygon it will probably underperfrom because it's not a Trygon. Son, I am derp.

**Lord of Death Mountain**

"Dive my Hawkmen" (Go Flash Go, Go Flash Go). hahaha Flash Gordon, Awesome RxGhost, well done.
It is so tempting to field the Mawloc (even with the point cost) to do exactly as you have suggested RxGhost.
I am a fan of the larger Tyranids and at this point have mainly focused on the bigger units. (Forgeworld Trygon's x2, GW Mawloc, Forgeworld Carny's x3, Forgeworld Winged Hive Tyrant with scything talons, Forgeworld Winged Warriors (Shrikes) x9,). I also have a stack of Forgeworld Rippers and and the flying ones (Sky-Slashers) and that is it, I think.

Here's an interesting question : Can a Tyranid army still be an effective powerful army without having any Hormagaunts, Termagants or Genestealers ? (but with lots of rippers and of course lots of large Tyranid Monsters).

**RxGhost**

Personally, I think rippers are garbage.

To answer your question, yes. If you want to run the big bugs, I'd say stick to warriors and Tervigons for troop choices. Warriors are big and bulky and 3 wounds a piece with lots of options and Tervigons produce scoring units for you. To ignore them completely might hurt you, since it'll force you into less tactical options; the Tyranid army is built around synergising with the other units from the book...but it's by no means an impossible task, probably be fun too.

To reiterate, rippers are a terrible, terrible thing that should be put on bases only for decorative purposes.