IG versus the new BT/DA: How does IG adapt to the new DA/BT codex?

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**schadenfreude**

The new BT and DA rules will present interesting challenges to IG armies.

First of the IG flavor of the month is 3 Vendettas +melta vets + 3 Manticores + Chimera spam won't work well on either army, especially BT.

The big problem is Manticores won't pull their weight against 25-30 terminators. As more cyclone spamming terminator heavy armies hit the field the more popular all 2+ armor save armies will become as players find ways to get away from 20+ krak missiles per turn wrecking their army. The age of spending 25% of the armies points on Manticores without second though is over.

While I believe the new DA army is much better balanced as an all comers list than the new BT for IG the new BT list is going to be much more of a problem.

Against mech IG that depends on AV12 target saturation the BT army is going to be packing 25 terminators with 20 krak missiles that have the tank hunter USR making them effectively S9 against tanks. The 5 squads of 5 with 4 shots each means 5 separate targets will be on the wrong end of 4 S9 shots at BS4. AV12 can't stand up to that kind of firepower.

Against foot IG all those termies have storm bolters which means they can just ruin guardsmen who step out into the open.

Now IG has a very flexible codex, the question is now "How does IG adapt to the new DA/BT codex?"

**alarmingrick**

one Thing i'd been kicking around was replacing 1 Manticore with a sqd. of 2 Medusas.
still have the whole av12 problem though.

**alphaomega**

Lots of LR Executioners and battle tanks or demolishers about it really.

**schadenfreude**

alarmingrick wrote:one Thing i'd been kicking around was replacing 1 Manticore with a sqd. of 2 Medusas.
still have the whole av12 problem though.

And they are open topped going up against 20 S9 shots per turn as the top priority target.

You could up their cost and make them closed top, but then you're about halfway there between the price of a Medusa and a LR Demolisher.

Marbo may become even more popular. The BT squad are not cheap, and well worth dropping a demo charge on their head. They also can not get better than a 5+ invo (BT that is) so that should wreck most of the squad.

I was on the fence about demo charge SWS before the new BT came out, and now I think I'm going to do it. Put them in an outflanking Vendetta and they are pretty much sure to take out a very powerful squad.

On the topic of Vendettas: They are damn fragile going up against BT. If IG doesn't go first they should probably outflank. A quad plasma CCS would also do very well against BT when dropping of a Vendetta. Also Vendettas can very reliably kill terminators with their TL LC, so they will be the top priority target for BT second only to units that have AP2 pie.

**CKO**

IG mech will have a very hard time fighting against a black templar terminator heavy list. If they prioritize correctly or get first turn it will be a hard matchup.

The return of the plasma gun is coming soon!

**Reecius**

Medusas will be out-ranged and out-gunned by the new BT and DA. They will be dead before getting in rage to shoot. Executioners will be far superior.

This does really change the meta. A cheap, easy to paint army that is a counter to Missile Spam and Mech IG is a game changer.

I think IG will need Blobs for tying up termie squads (assuming they can get there) and for FRFSRF to just drown the termies in wounds.

Plasma is going to have to come back in a big way.

This really does change the meta. All the a.cannons and whatnot need to be mixed in with las and plas in order to compensate for the increased amount of 2+, 3++

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yes, and the tank hunting a.cannons will just murder light mech (and heavy mech for that matter). That is disgusting.

**schadenfreude**

If IG goes first they have a good chance of running some BT units off the board in a pitched battle deployment by dumping some melta+ vendetta LC into them followed by PBS.

I'm also thinking Marbo + 2 Demo charge SWS. I was thinking that before the new BT came out, but was talking myself out of it as problematic is an overly mechanized environment. Going to model my Demo Charges as suicide bombers. 6 Demo charges in SWS may or may not be the best way to handle the situation, but how can any IG player turn down the chance to turn a half dozen guardsmen into human bombs.

**Reecius**

PBS will won BT, for sure. That is the unit you need to have (if you didn't already) to beat BT. This will be a battle of who goes first, as the PBS will be target priority #1. If the BT goes second, he needs to deepstrike or run a big risk. With ATSKNF, there is good odds that they will end up right back where they were after failing a break test, if not further ahead, but they can be chased off the board by fast movers.

I love the Al Queda SWS squad! I use them a lot for laughs, now they have a legitimate place in a list. 3 Demo charges makes a mess of anything.

**schadenfreude**

Reecius wrote:

I love the Al Queda SWS squad! I use them a lot for laughs, now they have a legitimate place in a list. 3 Demo charges makes a mess of anything.

Dirka dirka jihad, dirka dirka Muhammad!

**Gavo**

Return of the Leman Russ? Especially the Demolisher/Executioner. Possible?

**Hulksmash**

plasma sponsons for sure. Personally I'm a fan of the Exterminator (the 4 tl-ac shot) w/plasma sponsons. It's a vehicle killer and a termie killer w/AV14 rolled into it. All for 190pts.

**schadenfreude**

Against BT I'm not sure if spamming AV14 is the answer. The 20 CML puts out 12.666 hits per turn at S9. That's 2 penetrating hits against a LRBT, though in all honesty after 3 hits a single glance or pen is enough to stop it from shooting for a turn and a good BT player would move on to other targets.

There us usually only 1 terrain piece per deployment zone that can actually hide something a large as a russ to give it cover. I like the idea of a Russ with a 4+ cover save. It should take av average of 3 squads of BT templars shooting it to case a glance/pen to prevent it from shooting which is at least enough to tie up a good chunk of the enemy's army.

**nevertellmetheodds**

"Return of the Leman Russ? Especially the Demolisher/Executioner. Possible?"

did they ever go away??? lol IG have enough stuff that can waste terminators, the is no problems here for the guard.

**Hulksmash**

Ah, but that's where target saturation comes in Schaden. Do they shoot those, the troop units (generally people should run some of their vets w/plasma), Vendettas or what? 20 shots does equal 2 pens but that's only if there isn't cover

then it's just 1 and it's pretty easy to make cover w/Chimera's

. And entire armies shooting that does 1 penetrating hit. Or you can go for the other units and let that tank put hurting on you bit by bit.

And no unit I'm suggesting doesn't really have a place in a IG list either. They are all multi-purpose. But it's just the way I would and do build my lists if I'm going mech IG. But I use Ogryns so what do I know

**Gavo**

nevertellmetheodds wrote:"Return of the Leman Russ? Especially the Demolisher/Executioner. Possible?"

did they ever go away??? lol IG have enough stuff that can waste terminators, the is no problems here for the guard.

It went away a bit, with the advent of the Manticore and such. AV12 spam. Which won't hold up well at all against S9 missiles.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't a PBS do very well against BT?

**CKO**

Just spend 155 on the psyker battle squad and be done with it!

**Gavo**

Reecius wrote:Medusas will be out-ranged and out-gunned by the new BT and DA. They will be dead before getting in rage to shoot. Executioners will be far superior.

Medusas and Executioners have the same range. Granted, the Executioner is Av 14/13/11.

**Reecius**

@Gavo

Yes, they would be excellent, as would lash. However, the PBS is target priority #1. It would depend on who went first and maneuver. If the BTs nuke the PBS right away, problem solved. If not, it may not be that bad, really, unless the IG have a way to keep the termies broken. Otherwise they auto-rally 9" back where there they were next turn. A lot depends on deployment, terrain, etc.

Also, the Termies can deeps trike if it's really dangerous, then even if they get scared by the PBS, they can fall back shooting and doing a lot of damage.

@nevertellmetheodds
Yes, in tournament play you rarely see LRBTs anymore. I still use them, but I don;t see many others, it is mostly AV12 spam now.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Gavo
Correct, but what I meant was the missiles are 48" range and mobile. The Executioner would be better due to front AV14.

**Luco**

Leman Russes with triple heavy bolters. Take several and saturate them with fire, they will eventually fail after a salvo or two. I don't think Guard will have too many issues as the way to off termies is simply volume of fire. PBS works against BT but not so much against DA. Fearless everything hurts that plan a bit.

**schadenfreude**

Hulksmash wrote:Ah, but that's where target saturation comes in Schaden. Do they shoot those, the troop units (generally people should run some of their vets w/plasma), Vendettas or what? 20 shots does equal 2 pens but that's only if there isn't cover then it's just 1 and it's pretty easy to make cover w/Chimera's . And entire armies shooting that does 1 penetrating hit. Or you can go for the other units and let that tank put hurting on you bit by bit.

And no unit I'm suggesting doesn't really have a place in a IG list either. They are all multi-purpose. But it's just the way I would and do build my lists if I'm going mech IG. But I use Ogryns so what do I know

Yea that's why I like the idea of 1 LRBT in cover instead of multiple LRBT out of cover. Even when they are out in the open the BT player should ignore the LRBT until the vendettas are dead, next priority would be a Chimera holding a PBS before shots are taken at a LRBT.

Which leads me back to the PBS and some food for thought on that unit. PBS might be better off on foot against BT. There is a 50/50 between the Chimera being wrecked, and the Chimera exploding. If the storm bolters are out of range quad frags won't do that much against them if they are spread out and in cover. They also have a good leadership score so they could go to ground if stormboltered, and have a good chance to respond to the get back in the fight order from a PCS. If the army has a Lord Commissar with a cammo cloak I would toss him into a PBS on foot to make the unit really durable against stormbolter fire.

On one last note it might be worthwhile to run a Chimera forward 12" to dump out a quad flamer PCS on turn 2. That's not going to kill the squad, but catching an average of 3 termies will kill 1 that has could very well be a CML. The funny part is on turn 2 is a 50 point quad flamer PCS might be so far down on your opponents target priority list that they might live to flame the same squad 2 turns in a row. Also note if a Chimera goes forward 12" don't even worry about giving opponents a rear shot. Against quad CML tank hunter shots a Chimera that popped smoke and is offering rear shots is actually less vulnerable than the front armor of an unobscured Chimera.

**Grix**

Punisher's might also see some playing time as well. Termies hate VoF and no vehicle can pump out more shots than a Punisher with HB sponsons and a Hvy Stubber. 29 str 5 shots and 3 sttr 4 shots a turn will mean some get failed. Combine it with the already mentioned PBS and it may just do the job.

**alarmingrick**

Grix wrote:Punisher's might also see some playing time as well. Termies hate VoF and no vehicle can pump out more shots than a Punisher with HB sponsons and a Hvy Stubber. 29 str 5 shots and 3 sttr 4 shots a turn will mean some get failed. Combine it with the already mentioned PBS and it may just do the job.

24" range means they'll probably be long dead before they get close enough, imho.

**Destroyer**

I've always seen the Executioners as one of the best Termie killers. The armor should be good enough to survive some missile shots while returning more than enough fire.

**CKO**

The executioner is one of the best tanks in the game, expensive but it gets the job done if you face alot of meq. The punisher is actually a pretty good idea considering it will wound non-meqs on a 2+.

**alarmingrick**

I'd still consider bringing 1 Manticore for taking out any possible Land Raiders. and against rhinos and razorbacks, it should be overkill.

**schadenfreude**

I'm going to say something many IG players regard as blasphemy. Camo netting is worth it on a single executioner. We're talking about 10% of the cost of the model to decrease successful pens/glances by 2/3. The problem is there is probably only 1 good hiding place so only 1 can have cover.

**scuddman**

plasma gun vets. Back when I played deathwing, it was foot guys with plasma that gave me trouble. Terminators that are built for killing tanks have inadequate anti-troop killing firepower. Terminators are expensive, so if he gears for a long range war, get your infantry within plasma range. Make him make the tough choice which to shoot at.

**odorofdeath**

Yeah, I'm thinking that Demo Charges and Rambo will be coming back in a big way also. perhaps even plasma stormies? Be still my heart! lol. Plasma/flamer vets with Demolitions seems pretty good against sloggin' Termies as well, as do Powerblobs for tying them for a turn or two. I haven't been all that impressed with the Executioner whenever I've used it, so if I had to take a Russ it would be the Demolisher or Eradicator.

**scuddman**

Yeah..here's a thing to think about too. If they have 3++ storm shields, they don't have storm bolters. That means las guns and plasma hurt. If they do have storm bolters, they are better at killing basic guardsman, but now only havea 5++ i save. Plasma kills them quickly.

All you have to do against 3++ terminators is get to 24" range or so, then sit there in cover. Space out so that the missle only hits one guy. So now it's like he's shooting 2 bolter shots a turn at guardsmen. THe terminators won't win that shoot war. Those vets are half the cost of the terminators.

If they have 5++, then they have 24" range storm bolters. THe key here? rapid fire range. Even if you lose a guard squad...you've lost guardsman. Those plasma shots will melt away the terminators.

Smart players will max and match, then wound allocate cleverly. Plasma goes on storm shield, regular wounds go on basic terminators. That would be the best way to do it...but the DA's are hampered by the 5 man squad size.

**Valhallan42nd**

Well, it looks like I'll be using FRFSRF a hell of a lot more often.