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I'm not to worried about TH/SS termies with guard. The lack of storm bolters means massed guardsmen can take them. The DA are a better balanced army than BT that's better against just about every body else, except guard. Smacking guardsmen in the face with a thunderhammer is fun, but it's excessive and doesn't score a lot of wounds. When strength caps out at 5 against guardsmen S8 thunderhammers are jut not that intimidating.

BT seem to be the problem child now. The solution is simple:More AP2 The challenge in the game is most of the delivery systems for AP2 are vehicles or transports with AV12.

That, sirs, is why I never dumped the plasma rifle from my guard squads.

Your plasma pistol to plasma rifle conversions are real smooth, I have the feeling a lot of people are going to be asking about it now that plasma is making a comeback. They are also not bad against Rhinos in a normal MEQ mech list if the order bring it down goes off.

A lot of non plasma enthusiasts are unfamiliar with the mathammer on a successful order to a BS3 unit.

Out of 18 shots 13.5 hit, 4.5 miss 1.5 of which melt down resulting in 1 guardsman being killed by their own plasma gun when orders go off. That's better than 12 hits, 6 misses 3 of which meltdowns resulting in1 dead MEQ for MEQ armies.

I've seen what Marbo can do against a shooting Deathwing support unit and was not very happy that I took such losses so quickly for the Terminators. Would recommend demo charges against them, if they go right it'll take a good portion of the enemy's army out for a one shot weapon.

Just make sure that you don't forget the anti-AV 14 in case those terminators have a ride.

My Anti-AV14 comes in the form of a squad of 2 Medusas with siege shells, a Manticore and a squad of Melta vets. I also have a Vendetta, but that so rarely does anything against av14 that I don't bother to shoot it there. If they're running a heavy terminator list, it's likely foot, not mounted.

How does IG counter a BT termi-cyclone spam list?

Seriously, just kill the troops. If you're facing a Black Templars list with 5 terminator squads (2 cyclones each and tank hunters), that's roughly (being unclear on purpouse to not give away points costs) 1250 points WITHOUT the two HQ choices you have to take to unlock the retinue terminators, and WITHOUT chainfists added to the terminators. Add the cost of the Emperor's Champion (roughly 150 with AAC, NMTO) and you've spent roughly 1400+cost of characters points on your elites. How much does that leave for troops? And if we're talking 'Ard Boyz level here, you just get more plasma than you can shake a stick at. Even the LR punisher might actually be a good idea, as it's pretty OK at dealing many wounds to small units. I have a hard time seeing how Black Templars suddenly would own everyone and everything in tournaments just because of this update.

And yes, I'm biased, deal with it.

:-) Was wondering about that... The DA termis can be troops or elite, so up to the 9 squads, but I think the BT ones might be a bit better against the Mech IG... No "just play the mission and kill the troops" against the Deathwing, but...

The BT main advantage is still righteous zeal in this instance. With a more shooty focused list, you don't necessarily need the Preferred Enemy vow. You can take Abhor the Witch and be near the center of the table with some of your units before the game even begins...given the fact that 90% of the competitive armies are all sporting a psyker in the list these days. That gives the IG player one turn to completely eliminate those terminator units, because if they don't they will zeal even further forward. Next thing you know, those tanks are now being shot and assaulted with chainfists and power fists. The durable termie squads will come from the terminator command squads as they can get 3++ SS and shooting weapons in one unit. Don't forget that these units can still take drop pods for 30pts. and still follow the old rules for drop pods coming in...i.e. they don't get half right away. Which allows you to put your combi melta toting ones in reserve..waiting for the best moment to strike. There is so much flexibility as a delivery system besides all foot, that it's not even funny.

If you stick with an all foot army, Grimaldus is suddenly a top choice as he makes all units within 6" fearless and the unit he's with can zeal 9" a turn. Add in a Terminator command squad and suddenly your army is LD10 and fearless if you maintain a good formation. This also doesn't include the cheap missile platforms of 70pt. typhoons either. The BT are absolute ball busters now vs. mech parking lots...and I love that.

schadenfreude wrote:Your plasma pistol to plasma rifle conversions are real smooth, I have the feeling a lot of people are going to be asking about it now that plasma is making a comeback. They are also not bad against Rhinos in a normal MEQ mech list if the order bring it down goes off.

A lot of non plasma enthusiasts are unfamiliar with the mathammer on a successful order to a BS3 unit.

Out of 18 shots 13.5 hit, 4.5 miss 1.5 of which melt down resulting in 1 guardsman being killed by their own plasma gun when orders go off. That's better than 12 hits, 6 misses 3 of which meltdowns resulting in1 dead MEQ for MEQ armies.

18 shots is 3 meltdowns with 2 dead; 12 is 2, with 1.33 dead. (assuming flak armor.)

pratell wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Your plasma pistol to plasma rifle conversions are real smooth, I have the feeling a lot of people are going to be asking about it now that plasma is making a comeback. They are also not bad against Rhinos in a normal MEQ mech list if the order bring it down goes off.

A lot of non plasma enthusiasts are unfamiliar with the mathammer on a successful order to a BS3 unit.

Out of 18 shots 13.5 hit, 4.5 miss 1.5 of which melt down resulting in 1 guardsman being killed by their own plasma gun when orders go off. That's better than 12 hits, 6 misses 3 of which meltdowns resulting in1 dead MEQ for MEQ armies.

18 shots is 3 meltdowns with 2 dead; 12 is 2, with 1.33 dead. (assuming flak armor.)

He's calculating in the Bring it Down order, which twin-links the plasma guns. 1/6th of the rerolled dice will statistically result in "Gets Hot". 18 shots * 1/2 miss * 1/6 "Gets Hot"= 1.5

For the marines, though, I think it would be two "Gets Hot" results, with an average .66 dead marines. It looks like your calculation of misses used BS 3, and then you went with "half of the misses get hot." Close, but not quite.

Maybe I missed something but, the "bring it down" order wouldn't seem to apply facing a Terminator force... So, no twin linked plasma guns facing the forces in question... And so the assumed 18 shots would, assuming you roll exactly the odds, kill off 2 of your own gunners :-) Me, I'd count on it happening sooner since I can roll lots of 1's...