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I've been following this for some time now, and it really sucks. I've been following this b/c John was a friend of mine. (not a "best" friend but casual/regular gaming aquaintance) Thing's FIRST smelled rotten when he died and the city decided that the death was not "in the line of duty" since he was in training, so the family would not be taken care of. (I'm assuming with the exception of whatever Life Insurance benefits he'd signed up for) Great news for the family of a deceased soon-to-be father.

Now, before you get uppity about the training and the apparent "savage" beating, this is normal training for an LEO.

The "stink" of it is the apparent "cover-up" by the city. There is also a 48min press release video where the chief of police seems to be either obviously attempting the cover-up OR willfully incompetant. He gets angry during the press release as well during a line of questioning...very professional.

Jeez...the city officials during the 48min press release cannot even bring themselves to pronounce John's last name right. Kohn, like the CON-artists Norfolk seems to be run by.

Just a little more info...the 48min press release reveals that during his training John had carried a massive "headache" thru several days of his training and didnt disclose this to his trainers, he tried to "cowboy" it out. Personally, I think this was probably a fatal mistake on his part as I'm betting he was probably carrying a severe head injury for those couple of days. The training exercise shown in the video right before he goes limp and unconscious was the third of the day, and probably the straw that broke the camel's back.

The issue here is the cover up of the city, not the rigorous nature of police training. John should have reported to instructors that he was hurting. Why wasnt there full disclosure though....ESPECIALLY to the family?

John played sisters of battle, and necrons, he was a great guy (despite playing Necrons ). Well liked by everyone in the store. We'll miss him.

Getting punched in the head several times is normal training practice?

What kind of training was it? I don't really understand the collision at the door thing either, I take it that they were trying to simulate a robbery or a violent situation?

It's things like this that make me happy about the amount of CCTV we have in operation. Praise be to our electronic overlords, and their constant vigil.

Wow...that's 8 flavors of jacked up. Condolences to the family.

Medium of Death wrote:Getting punched in the head several times is normal training practice?

What kind of training was it? I don't really understand the collision at the door thing either, I take it that they were trying to simulate a robbery or a violent situation?

It's things like this that make me happy about the amount of CCTV we have in operation. Praise be to our electronic overlords, and their constant vigil.

You gotta learn how to defend yourself in such a position.

When your a police officer...suspects don't respond to requests for "time out".

The collision was simply an accident...two recruits bumping into one another.

Medium of Death wrote:
It's things like this that make me happy about the amount of CCTV we have in operation. Praise be to our electronic overlords, and their constant vigil.

Wha..? Did you see the video? They HAVE CCTV here. It didn't help much because the city is still brushing it under the rug.

Sadly, it'll hit local news, be a "big scandal" for a while, the training officer will get put on suspension (with pay), and then it'll disappear, because no one outside of a small circle of friends will be affected.

Deadshane1 wrote:
You gotta learn how to defend yourself in such a position.

When your a police officer...suspects don't respond to requests for "time out".

The collision was simply an accident...two recruits bumping into one another.

That seems pretty stupid, with that logic you need to get shot before you go out on the street. You can learn to defend yourself without getting punched in the head.

Medium of Death wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:
You gotta learn how to defend yourself in such a position.

When your a police officer...suspects don't respond to requests for "time out".

The collision was simply an accident...two recruits bumping into one another.

That seems pretty stupid, with that logic you need to get shot before you go out on the street. You can learn to defend yourself without getting punched in the head.

What's stupid? Learning to block REAL punches from a mounted aggressor? Or trying to learn how to get killed from a bullet?

By the way, you learn how to conduct yourself in a gun battle as well during this training.

Just for the record...I'm in Law Enforcement myself. What's your profession?


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Just another video....a little easier to follow what's "wrong" about this situation.

Deadshane1 wrote: the city decided that the death was not "in the line of duty" since he was in training, so the family would not be taken care of.

That's terrible, I cannot for the life of me work out how they can possibly justify this stance.

..Police over there have a Union/similar right ? If so I'm astonished they're not all over this.

What's worse than the death is the cover up and attempting to deny benefits...


Death in training for a dangerous job happens... but covering it up and then saying feth you to the family? That's just wrong.

Medium of Death wrote:You can learn to defend yourself without getting punched in the head.

Well sure, if you don't want to know how how to react to when it really happens, you can pretend. Part of the training for this and the military is learning how to take a hit. You don't want to wait until it is life and death to do so. If you can't take a hit, these aren't the professions to be in. You might as well say a person can train to be a professional boxer without ever having to spar. If you don't know what it is like to get hit, for real, not play, you won't know how you'll react when it happens the first time. Mike Tyson called it "the moment of truth". Everyone thinks they can take a hit, but until you do, you don't really know.

This is shameful and disgusting. The poor guy died in the line of duty and the city needs to be taking care of his family.

Damn. RIP. Hope the family get some recompense - I know money can't replace a loved one, but it can help to take the pressure off.

Are you seriously saying that anybody who has the potential to be assaulted in the workplace should go on full contact training? Nurses, Public Transport Drivers, Doctors, Firemen, Paramedics and any other professions dealing with unpredictable clients.

Somebody standing over you and punching into your head is just going to lead to injury. You don't learn anything from being punched in the face, apart from trying to avoid it next time.

It doesn't take a lot to damage the brain. Our squishy think-sponges are quite vulnerable in there. Why risk it in a training exercise?

I'm not disputing the fact that you go on training for how to handle yourself in a gunfight. My point is you don't get shot as part of the training.


Anyway, I'm done.

This is a terrible tragedy that could have easily been avoided.

Ahtman wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:You can learn to defend yourself without getting punched in the head.

Well sure, if you don't want to know how how to react to when it really happens, you can pretend. Part of the training for this and the military is learning how to take a hit. You don't want to wait until it is life and death to do so. If you can't take a hit, these aren't the professions to be in. You might as well say a person can train to be a professional boxer without ever having to spar. If you don't know what it is like to get hit, for real, not play, you won't know how you'll react when it happens the first time. Mike Tyson called it "the moment of truth". Everyone thinks they can take a hit, but until you do, you don't really know.

Sorry if I come across as a dick and I may be misunderstanding you, but...

What training process teaches someone to take a hit to the head? The old boxing adage was "You can't learn to take a hit". Meaning some people are just built to have it and others aren't. And those that do have the ideal physical build (ie, short+ stocky and strong neck muscles) will not have that ability for long if they continually subject themselves to that kind of brain trauma (See Chuck Liddell). Its physiologically impossible and it will eventually take less and less to get KO'd. You can properly defend yourself from hits, yes, but there is no "learning" involved in mild brain trauma. The NFL is starting to take concussions very seriously now because of a better understanding of brain trauma for example, and suspending players who have even mild concussions. So is the military, temporarily pulling folks from combat missions(ideally) if they've been involved in IED attacks that may have caused head trauma.

This recruit was probably already concussed when he started the hand to hand training and the additional blows to the head are most likely what killed him. On site medics should've taken a look at him after the earlier collision.

Hate to get my Captain Hindsight on, but really, the kind of logic that I think you are espousing is out dated and dangerous.

With that said, its pretty damn shameful that the police doesn't insure their prospective recruits.

Actually another good example is, and I know this is gonna sound weird coming from me, Chris Benoit. He took chair shots to the head regularly, because he wanted the hits to look real for the fans. This caused brain damage, eventually resulting in him murdering his wife and child then committing suicide.

Hold on a sec... what kind of training was this? I thought it was pretty mandatory to have some kind of training in self defense before they even allowed you to go in full contact?

Anyway, all the nastiness aside... here's hoping all the best for the family.

Melissia wrote:Actually another good example is, and I know this is gonna sound weird coming from me, Chris Benoit. He took chair shots to the head regularly, because he wanted the hits to look real for the fans. This caused brain damage, eventually resulting in him murdering his wife and child then committing suicide.

I guess he drew an even shorter straw.

But yeah, kind of shocked about this "training".

Medium of Death wrote:Are you seriously saying that anybody who has the potential to be assaulted in the workplace should go on full contact training? Nurses, Public Transport Drivers, Doctors, Firemen, Paramedics and any other professions dealing with unpredictable clients.

Somebody standing over you and punching into your head is just going to lead to injury. You don't learn anything from being punched in the face, apart from trying to avoid it next time.

It doesn't take a lot to damage the brain. Our squishy think-sponges are quite vulnerable in there. Why risk it in a training exercise?

I'm not disputing the fact that you go on training for how to handle yourself in a gunfight. My point is you don't get shot as part of the training.

None of those jobs that you mentioned include getting into an actual fistfight as an occupational hazard. Getting into a fight is part and parcel of being a law enforcement officer. It WILL happen. Lives may be on the line OTHER than the officer's...he needs to have experience, HARD experience in order to protect innocent bystanders/victims. Nobody ever said that this was an easy job, it can be VERY physical.

100's of police recruits in Virginia and Emperor only knows how many LEO's across the country recieve this same training (training with pads btw) every year. It's part of the job.

Getting beat on is NOT part of the job of a Doctor, Fireman, Taxidriver or whatever else you can come up with, CAN it happen? Yes, but generally, no it wont.

Anyway, I'm done.

Good thing.

This is a terrible tragedy that could have easily been avoided.

Indeed, unfortunatly John wasnt aware what was happening to him, and instructors could've been more observant possibly.

The point of this thread however is to point out that a possible "cover-up" is being perpetrated. An attempt to sweep his death "under the rug" as it were.

Yeah, that's the real crime here, the cover up and "feth you" to the family of the deceased.

Melissia wrote:Actually another good example is, and I know this is gonna sound weird coming from me, Chris Benoit. He took chair shots to the head regularly, because he wanted the hits to look real for the fans. This caused brain damage, eventually resulting in him murdering his wife and child then committing suicide.

Aye, I was a huge fan of his, and was horrified when he did it. However seen several things since, and there does seem a real case to answer for.

Thanks to folks like Chris Nolwinski (a former WWE wrestler) who has been looking into this stuff, NFL, WWE and various others are taking it much more seriously. Unprotected chair shots for example are now banned in the WWE.


Also, sorry to hear about your buddy Deadshane1, I hope you fella's are planning a game in his honour.

Lemme explain this training real quickly for the Nosebleeds once again so that they hear.

If you are in a fight with someone, there is a possibilty that person may be bigger/stronger/more skilled than you and may end up in a mounted position ready to beat you until you are unconscious/dead.

...remember, these are criminals, possibly killers that I'm talking about.

You have to know how to protect yourself in this situation, real punches coming in, and you may be struck. That doesnt mean that you call "time out", that means you keep your composure and defend yourself.

Of course during a training exercise, one needs to assess one's own 'fitness' and ability to execute the exercise. John, tragically, failed to do this as he had been complaining of a bad headache for days during his training.

I know....from experience....that this sort of training is needed. I work in Law Enforcement. I've taken a fight to the ground and fought a man who was stronger, and bigger than me after he attained a mounted position.

I had to fight this man for a full 2-3 minutes. That is a long time to be in a fight with someone stronger than you. Thanx to this sort of training I was able to keep my cool, tie him up, and came out of the fight without even so much as a bruise. I waited until he ran out of steam, got winded and frustrated, then backed off. Then I was able to call for assistance. (something I was unable to do during the fight due to faulty equiptment)

My point is, this happened REAL TIME. I'm thankful for the training I received as it is probably what kept me from going home beat to a pulp and/or dead.

If you've never been in a situation like this, with a larger man trying to physically beat you to death or unconsciousness and either lives or other peoples safety/security depending on you, then quite frankly, why the hell are you giving an opinion?

Police and LEO's in general have a violent and physical job. They have to be prepared.

No amount of "shadow boxing" could've prepared me for my experience...if you think it could've...you're clueless.



Now, back to the city, and how it's covering up/not taking care of its own.....

So sorry about the loss of your friend. i'm also sorry that the surviors are being turned into victims by the City that way.

@Deadshane1, aye I believe what your are saying there, my note was more about the fact folks are looking into these kind of injuries mores seriously.

If someone, or your friend had realised they may have gone to check with a medic/doc.

As to the Cities reaction, sounds like they are trying to pass the buck and his family are being asked to pay for it, by not getting the help they need.

Just a really poor situation all round.

OK Deadshane1, I do understand why you would have to go though this kind of training but exactly what does said training detail; so far all it seems to me is they get someone bigger/stronger than you to beat the living daylights out of you. That's the kind of training I expect special forces to receive so they can withstand torture.

Considering you've been though said training and I haven't perhaps you could please enlighten me? (I have to admit I'm interested at this point)

It is a terrible shame about the cover up and all but it could always have been worse (it may have never have been discovered...)

I don't believe that being held down on the floor and punched repeatedly in the head is standard police training. I don't see how it trains you.

I'm sorry but I just don't believe it. I need to see some documentary evidence.

wizard12 wrote:OK Deadshane1, I do understand why you would have to go though this kind of training but exactly what does said training detail; so far all it seems to me is they get someone bigger/stronger than you to beat the living daylights out of you. That's the kind of training I expect special forces to receive so they can withstand torture.

Considering you've been though said training and I haven't perhaps you could please enlighten me? (I have to admit I'm interested at this point)

It is a terrible shame about the cover up and all but it could always have been worse (it may have never have been discovered...)

Ok, imagine you're being throttled....FOR REALZ!

Instinctivly, you've got two choices...

1. fight back...take the fight to them

2. Try to get away, or go into a fetal cover-up positon. (if you've been mounted...this choice will get you hurt/dead)

...sure, talk a good game all you like, but when you're getting beat up, for real, your true colors show thru, and beleive me, getting "beat up" while wearing padding is 100% more better than getting DEAD when the situation happens for real. A beatdown while wearing padding isnt really much of a risk of DEATH...this particular instance had certain circumstances that led up to the tragedy we're talking about here in this thread.

Ever wonder why law enforcement is mostly male? Why many Female LEO's are sort of "butch"? Instinctivly...females want to flee from a fight with a superior sized aggressor. Males have an easier time of accepting their fate in this situation and dedicating themselves to the fight. Maybe something to do with testosterone. (this is personal opinion, and just what I think btw after being exposed to this sort of stuff)

As an LEO...option 2 really is not an option. The training you've seen above is not only training, but a "proving ground" of sorts. It's also to show you that you CAN fight back while in a weak position.

The training shown, was essentially a sprint (i dunno how far but it was meant to simulate a foot pursuit) followed by a groundfight where an aggressor got you to the ground and was attempting to get your gun away from you...you know...to kill you with it?

In a situation like this you have to be able to maintain your composure while fighting back...or you're dead. Can you take some punches to the head? Will you fight? Will you flee/cover up?

If you fail, the instructors tell you what to do differently and see if you can adapt your "instinctive" behavior to a better way of fighting. A new "learned" behavior under said circumstances if you will....which could save your life and the lives of others in the field.

Hope this clears it up a bit.

So brain damage is a vital part of law enforcement training?

That opens the way for so many tasteless jokes.

wizard12 wrote:That's the kind of training I expect special forces to receive so they can withstand torture.

That is a different school. Torture is different than being beat up.

It is a controlled environment. The fact that this is part of the training and this is the first time we've had news of a fatality (in a long time) shows that it isn't a bar fight in a gym. Someone missed the signs and the guy didn't realize how bad off he really was which lead to tragedy. The state than screwed him which lead to even greater tragedy.

Ahtman wrote:

wizard12 wrote:That's the kind of training I expect special forces to receive so they can withstand torture.

That is a different school. Torture is different than being beat up.

It is a controlled environment. The fact that this is part of the training and this is the first time we've had news of a fatality (in a long time) shows that it isn't a bar fight in a gym. Someone missed the signs and the guy didn't realize how bad off he really was which lead to tragedy. The state than screwed him which lead to even greater tragedy.

Bingo!

Said with much less text than I could have....


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Melissia wrote:So brain damage is a vital part of law enforcement training?

Some might say so...yea.

Since Im probably one of the few that knows exactly what Deadshane is talking about- I'll pitch in some added perspective.

Im former law enforcement and have had some experience with mixed martial arts training I sought out on my own to augment my survivavbility should I get physically assaulted while on duty. The scenario in the video is pretty much as 'worst case' as it gets, and if you arent trained to deal with it properly you will sustain injury and damage if the attacker is skilled or motivated to do harm.

You cannot learn how to defend yourself without getting hit. Period. No matter how much anime you watch where guys dance around and never get hit- thats not reality. The most elusive fighter will get hit sooner or later. It makes alot more sense to know how you will handle that in the gym on the mats- than on the street.

My sympathies go out to Mr Kohns family and freinds, and hopefully those that tried to cover this incident will be held accountable for thier actions and more responsible people can be put in thier place.

Also- I hope that seeing a bit of what your local law enforcement does on a daily basis might open your eyes a bit and earn them a bit more respect.