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Hello Dakkites,
Well I just finished a round in a campaign I was playing in tonight and I had one of the most frustrating weeks I think I have ever played. Now I personally play very competively at the right times if I am getting ready for a tournament or such. But this is a campaign I was organizing mainly to get newer players involved in the wonderful game of 40k. And the rules of this tournament in a nutshell were escalation league. Basically make four lists out of a 1850 only using those units to hopefully bring down the massive amount of WAAC players at my club. I informed all of the experienced players participating what was going on and that this was more for the newer players to have fun. But I was still giving prizes away at the end but nothing too much. When I got there I casually talked to some of the players and then I noticed that one of the more experienced players had brought space wolves inspecting his list I noted that he had worked his list to be the closest to razorback spam that he could minus a couple plasmas on the razorbacks with three squads of long fangs. upon seeing this i was rather frustrated repeating what I told to him in the beginning that this was more to have the newer players have fun than it was for the older guys and that he agreed to this when he started in. He then stated that every game for him was tourney prep and it wasn't bad to bring a cheese list when most of the newer guys barely had the time/money to put together a halfway effective army and for some this was there first time playing in anything with prizes at the end. He then proceeded to get more upset and not looking to get into an argument i let him be. He then has proceeded to destroy players on the campaign and i have received multiple complaints by a couple guys in the campaign asking whats going on and saying that they purposely built lists for the newer guys to not be WAAC but just for fun. I guess i needed to vent somewhere dakka and I wanted to express what was going on. Any opinions or suggestions anything at all or maybe even similar stories?

Don't mention there are prizes and keep them as a surprise for the end? Or maybe have encouragement based ones since it's designed to help new players start off. Perhaps if it happens again pair him up with only the experienced players.


Also before it starts up like it usually does in these threads, being WAAC does not automatically make you TFG. But, a fair few TFGs are WAAC seemingly by default. There is a place and time for it.

By the look of the story this guy must be a jerk. How exactly is beating people playing what must be at best their fourth or fifth game a good tourney prep? Though some do see this as the fun part of the game...

n0t_u wrote: Though some do see this as the fun part of the game...

Which is why I try not to play against these people. I expect it tournaments, and I suppose I'm all right with it if we agree in advance, but it shouldn't be happening when someone has specifically told you not to do it. Of course, when did that ever stop your unfriendly neighborhood TFG?

Kick the guy out of the campaign.

BuFFo wrote:Kick the guy out of the campaign.

+1 He agreed to the terms of the tourny, then showed up with an army that flew in the face of it. You really should have been more decisive with him.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

BuFFo wrote:Kick the guy out of the campaign.

+1 He agreed to the terms of the tourny, then showed up with an army that flew in the face of it. You really should have been more decisive with him.

+1

I have only been in one tourney, and I am glad that my group decided not to pull any of this sort of thing. All I know is that bad things owuld happen if one of us pulled something like this to a newer player.....

Especially since the newest player is my brothers girlfriend. He would not be happy.

Tell him if he can't abide by the gentleman's agreement that he can't play? Seriously, if it's causing problems, some social ostracization is in order. If he's bringing high level tourney lists to a beginners league, then it's very obviously not going to be fun for the new guys, and his horse**** excuse of wanting tourney prep/wanting to be competitive becomes completely null and void as his opponents clearly have neither the generalship or army builds to compete at his level and he's getting no tourney experience out of it. All he wants to do is crush nubface, which is bad for the gaming group, and pisses off everyone who abided by the agreement as well.

Of course the guy should not have brought a strong list to a fluffy campaign.

You should have been more firm with the guy when you found out about his list.

By letting him play you authorised use of the list.

BuFFo wrote:Kick the guy out of the campaign.

I agree. Kick him out, or give his prize to a random "best player" out of the new guys. The dude is obviously a jerk off, theres no reason to be such a prick to new players.

BuFFo wrote:Kick the guy out of the campaign.

+1
If hes lowering the enjoyment of your other players, then hes a liability.

What I find really stupid is how he could say that hes trying to improve his game by ROFLstomping on new players.
You don't improve your game by doing that, you just look like a dooche.

Whilst its something I dont condone, you were the boss. It appears that you either didnt communicate the intention of the event clearly enough i.e an intro for newbies or when the guy turned up with his list you werent firm enough with him over it. You said he got aggitated/annoyed when you challenged him. You are the organiser, you call the shots.
Im not saying flail him/ban him but a hard, no nonsense line taken with him would have solved all the added stress you and the new guys went on to expeirnce. Blaming him isnt quite fair.

I also disagree with people calling him for to kicked etc. He is entitled to bring any list he wants. Sure I/we wouldnt do it in the spirit of the event but if sanctioned by the organiser then it must be accepted.
Furthermore, of course you can learn something by playing newbies/less experienced gamers. Every game teaches you something and shows you tricks you might miss or not get to practice a lot.

I dont agree with the guys actions/perspective, Im about as far from a tourney player as one gets but there are two sides to every story and all that.

edited for less smartypantsness

He made the best list he could within the confine of the restraints that you put in place. You clearly were expecting the lists to have more restraints on them than those you explicitly imposed.

I would suggest that in future you either authorise everyone's lists in advance or you put harsher restrictions in place. (personally, I'd have done the former)

A fun way to do a campaign is to collect the list of available armies of everyone who wants to join and make your own sub-optimal lists, then compose the sides to bring them back into parity if the players work together.

You can pinch outline ideas for the campaign from history, just don't tell people this is based on Stalingrad or Gettysburg or whatever.

The escalation league format that I'm familiar with is starting at 250 or 500 with a limited FOC, and ultimately working up to 'normal' game levels. Your deconstructive approach seems to favor experienced players who can assemble and then disassemble a list.
I would suggest starting at a low points level with mandatory troops, and optional HQ.

The week after that you can up points by 250 and include Fast Attack and transports with Front and Side AV totaling no more than 32.

This keeps the games at basically troops versus troops for the first couple weeks, which is generally more balanced and fair to newer players.

Ratius wrote:I also disagree with people calling him for to kicked etc. He is entitled to bring any list he wants. Sure I/we wouldnt do it in the spirit of the event but if sanctioned by the organiser then it must be accepted.

Actually, no, he is NOT entitled to bring whatever list he wants. The Campaign Organizer told the players NOT to bring power game lists. This may be harsh, but if the OP had some balls, he would have told the power gaming git NO at the start of the campaign. Yes, technically the OP said his list was okay, but if the OP wanted to say NO, he could, thus limiting what the WAAC jerk could bring.

What is actually happening is this....

1) The OP told everyone this is a campaign, so bring lists that you wouldn't consider WAAC lists. You are all adult enough to know how to construct these lists.

2) Everyone but one guy followed his instructions.

3) OP, trying not to piss off ONE person, allowed him to participate in the campaign as is.

4) Over the course of the campaign, this one person has now ruined the experienced of many people.

5) So in conclusion, because the OP was non confrontational for that one person, trying not to ruin that guys fun, the OP in turn ruined the fun for MULTIPLE players without realizing it.

What did Spock say? The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. If you have to piss off one guy, do it, because now you are just pissing off 10 people. And here is the rub too.... In this hobby, people can get a mob mentality. Behind your back, you are possibly known as the guy who supports power gaming and ruining other people's fun by not policing this WAAC turd. I know this may sound extreme, but I am sure many of us hobbyists know that this can happen quite easily.

Once again, you kick this one guy out so the other 10 people can enjoy the campaign. One for ten.

Here's the thing . . .

1) a lot of WAAC players can't actually bring themselves to be anything but WAAC players because thats the type of people they are.

2) This is actually a good experience for the newbies because it teaches them how to play at a compettitive level. You learn much more from a loss than you do from a win (just my personal experience).

3) Did you actually establish hard rules for lists? i.e. only 1 heavy choice and 1 elites choice. or that every list has to be GM approved.

4) next time you organize set a level cap of sorts. Anyone who has been in the hobby for X amount of time or X amount of games shouldn't be able to win a prize (even if they win the campaign).


While you can chose to kick this guy out, I imagine it will be more touble than its worth. So let the young guys know whats up and make sure they know that you will improve the next campaign.

(edit) If you kick this guy out all of a suden you'll be the bad guy. Don't let that happen, be the bigger man.

The guy should have adhered to what was asked of him ; i.e. not field a too strong force as it was really an introduction to the game for new players. I never understand the motivation of these people, win at all costs. As for his claim it was tournament prep; COBBLERS. At a club I used to play at I along with other newcomers were asked if we would like to play a historical mass battle. It then transpired that our 'opponents' knew the rules and lists inside out and needless to say we were given the mostly useless army which was obliterated in two turns. The upshot of this was I never want to play another historical game ever again, I left the club soon after and left me with a bitter view of these type of people.
The guy should have been told to re-do his army or not be allowed to play. In the hobby it should always favour newcomers over powerplayers.

Lucid wrote:
1) a lot of WAAC players can't actually bring themselves to be anything but WAAC players because thats the type of people they are.

I don't buy that there are people out there incabable of toning down their lists. Maybe they don't want to, but a lack of desire and a lack of ability are two different beasts.

Lucid wrote:
2) This is actually a good experience for the newbies because it teaches them how to play at a compettitive level. You learn much more from a loss than you do from a win (just my personal experience).

If there's a massive disparity between the hardness of a pair of lists, what does that teach? Sorry, shouldn't be playing unless you have a top tier list?

Lucid wrote:
4) next time you organize set a level cap of sorts. Anyone who has been in the hobby for X amount of time or X amount of games shouldn't be able to win a prize (even if they win the campaign).

Neither of those two stats carries any real indicator of skill. OP's problem wasn't veterans playing; it was one person being dumb.
---
To OP- Should've laughed when the player in question got upset and then kicked him out.

BuFFo wrote:Kick the guy out of the campaign.

+1

If he's so worried about tourney prep he's got to beat on new players I'd even go so far as to suggest kicking him out of the club.

L. Wrex

To Rusty Knight:

As far as being justified I completely agree the OP had every right to kick him out, but in the real world there are some people who are just to infantile to comprimse or see the consequences of thier actions.

Obviously this guy has issues with maturity if he would not change his list . . . that being said, do you think anyone is going to be able to change his mind or get him to admit that he's wrong? I agree he has the ability to be mature, but like you said lack of desire is the problem.
From a management standpoint people like this are a dime a dozen, and trying to oust him would cause a lot of drama, especially if he frequents the store.

As far as the lesson that it teaches . . . assuming that he's a competent player (albeit an immature one) the effectiveness of the list should speak for itself. it should be a lesson in list building at least, at most a lesson in tournament style play. For me this would be a lesson on how to identify TFG.


The OP's orriginal goal was for the newbies to have fun, and prizes draw a lot of people. I think the vets might understand the object of that rule. Again, this is just a suggestion for the OP, not telling him how to do things. Its his tourney. I just feel that pulling a power trip on this guy would be playing to his level. Self righteousness is not an enduring quality.

My main point was to have a hard set of rules to list building for the tourney. Its just too bad the OP couldn't go back in time to change that. So learn form this guy and how to control him in future tourneys.

If this was for newer players then why don't you make it out to be New players only? Tell the more experience crowd that this event is only for the new guys who are just starting out or don't have much experience. Maybe even get some of the Vets help out on being judges or give players advice (not like you know how to beat their opponents are what not). Seems like it would be better that way then to make restraints but then get mad when people find loop holes.

Okay truthfully I understand that I should have kicked him out but he is a good friend of mine and I wasn't going to take it to the extreme the prizes I collected aren't something that you would go all out for. But in reality I probably should of told him that what he did was uncalled for and kicked him out of the campaign. This was a mistake on my part but I can't change what happened in this past what I did do was inform that he wasn't allowed to receive any of the prizes and that if he is to continue playing he must rework his list to make the games more competitive and entertaining. I also stated that if he didn't do that by next week then I wouldn't have any other choice but to kick him out of the tournament. Once again I know I should of told him to lay off the first time I saw his list but I didn't. That is the best idea I came up with to be slightly fair to him even though he disregarded what I told him to do in the first place. Honestly sometimes I can be a little bit too nice of a guy but in the end I want everyone to have a good experience and maintain a friendship I have had for 10 years.

BuFFo wrote:Actually, no, he is NOT entitled to bring whatever list he wants. The Campaign Organizer told the players NOT to bring power game lists. This may be harsh, but if the OP had some balls, he would have told the power gaming git NO at the start of the campaign. Yes, technically the OP said his list was okay, but if the OP wanted to say NO, he could, thus limiting what the WAAC jerk could bring.

Did the OP restrict what you could build your lists with? If yes and the player violated that, then he should have either been kicked out of the campaign or submitted another list. If he did build the list according to the guidelines, then there is/should be no problem.

BuFFo wrote:What is actually happening is this....

1) The OP told everyone this is a campaign, so bring lists that you wouldn't consider WAAC lists. You are all adult enough to know how to construct these lists.

Your idea of a 'fluff/WAAC' list (FYI, a fluff definition doesn't exist) and someone else's could be completely different.

BuFFo wrote:2) Everyone but one guy followed his instructions.

We have no idea if he did or not. The OP is to vague on what the requirements are.

BuFFo wrote:3) OP, trying not to piss off ONE person, allowed him to participate in the campaign as is.

Correct.

BuFFo wrote:4) Over the course of the campaign, this one person has now ruined the experienced of many people.

Correct.

BuFFo wrote:5) So in conclusion, because the OP was non confrontational for that one person, trying not to ruin that guys fun, the OP in turn ruined the fun for MULTIPLE players without realizing it.

Correct.

BuFFo wrote:What did Spock say? The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. If you have to piss off one guy, do it, because now you are just pissing off 10 people. And here is the rub too.... In this hobby, people can get a mob mentality. Behind your back, you are possibly known as the guy who supports power gaming and ruining other people's fun by not policing this WAAC turd. I know this may sound extreme, but I am sure many of us hobbyists know that this can happen quite easily.

While this is possibly true, I think you would have to be living in a utopian society in the 23rd century for your argument to have merit.

BuFFo wrote:Once again, you kick this one guy out so the other 10 people can enjoy the campaign. One for ten.

If he doesn't follow guidelines, I agree. The question is how specific those guidelines were.

How the hell is beating up on new players with a top tier list considered tournament practice? New players actions are in no way reflective of what you are going to be experiencing in a competitive setting, and you are just going to learn bad habits. If anything, its counterproductive.

That guys lists should have been kaiboshed as soon as it was seen, no questions asked. I am suprised that you actually let him play with it.

@imweasel Yes the rules were very specific in what you could bring and what you couldn't and I also told all the experienced competitive players in my group that this was going to be friendly so no cheese or even close to it. They all agreed to this.

BuFFo wrote:

Ratius wrote:I also disagree with people calling him for to kicked etc. He is entitled to bring any list he wants. Sure I/we wouldnt do it in the spirit of the event but if sanctioned by the organiser then it must be accepted.

Actually, no, he is NOT entitled to bring whatever list he wants. The Campaign Organizer told the players NOT to bring power game lists. This may be harsh, but if the OP had some balls, he would have told the power gaming git NO at the start of the campaign. Yes, technically the OP said his list was okay, but if the OP wanted to say NO, he could, thus limiting what the WAAC jerk could bring.

What is actually happening is this....

1) The OP told everyone this is a campaign, so bring lists that you wouldn't consider WAAC lists. You are all adult enough to know how to construct these lists.

2) Everyone but one guy followed his instructions.

3) OP, trying not to piss off ONE person, allowed him to participate in the campaign as is.

4) Over the course of the campaign, this one person has now ruined the experienced of many people.

5) So in conclusion, because the OP was non confrontational for that one person, trying not to ruin that guys fun, the OP in turn ruined the fun for MULTIPLE players without realizing it.

What did Spock say? The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. If you have to piss off one guy, do it, because now you are just pissing off 10 people. And here is the rub too.... In this hobby, people can get a mob mentality. Behind your back, you are possibly known as the guy who supports power gaming and ruining other people's fun by not policing this WAAC turd. I know this may sound extreme, but I am sure many of us hobbyists know that this can happen quite easily.

Once again, you kick this one guy out so the other 10 people can enjoy the campaign. One for ten.

I agree with all of this. The campaign organiser should have stepped up and told the one guy he could not bring that list.

The end result would be the same, except the guy would probably still be in the campaign, with a moderate list, and no-one else would have been pissed off.

harshr3ality wrote:@imweasel Yes the rules were very specific in what you could bring and what you couldn't and I also told all the experienced competitive players in my group that this was going to be friendly so no cheese or even close to it. They all agreed to this.

Did he violate what he could bring? If not, then you should have thought more extensively about what you said you could or couldn't bring.

If he did violate the rules, what were you thinking? He should have either been booted or told to submit another list.

imweasel wrote:

harshr3ality wrote:@imweasel Yes the rules were very specific in what you could bring and what you couldn't and I also told all the experienced competitive players in my group that this was going to be friendly so no cheese or even close to it. They all agreed to this.

Did he violate what he could bring? If not, then you should have thought more extensively about what you said you could or couldn't bring.

If he did violate the rules, what were you thinking? He should have either been booted or told to submit another list.

I think there's such a thing as "the spirit" of a campaign. I think if you say "Don't make tournament lists" that should be enough without listing every possible combination of stuff that is considered too powerful to avoid rules lawyers.

Brother Gyoken wrote:I think there's such a thing as "the spirit" of a campaign. I think if you say "Don't make tournament lists" that should be enough without listing every possible combination of stuff that is considered too powerful to avoid rules lawyers.

What is one person's idea of a tournament list and another person's idea of a tournament list can be vastly different as well as falling everywhere in between.

Using this guideline. you might as well have had the OP build everyone's list.

I tried to be as descriptive as possible but all of the competitive guys know what I mean when I say non competitive lists.