Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was watching a game involving Necron yesterday, and a question relating to their # of CC attacks came up. I figured I'd check with dakkadakka, but wasn't able to find anything on the search.

The question is whether Wraiths and/or Flayed Ones gain an extra attack in close combat due to having multiple single-handed weapons. We always had assumed in the past that they didn't, but with the new 40k FAQ it's become less clear.

new 40k FAQ wrote:Q: What weapons count as single-handed weapons for the purposes of gaining additional attacks in close combat? (p37)
A: All pistols, close combat weapons and any weapons that are specifically stated as single-handed weapons in their rules.

Now, Flayed Ones are equipped with "claws" and Wraiths are equipped with "claws and a barbed tail". The Necron player said that by definition a "claw" is a "single-handed weapon" and that by being equipped with "claws" means that the model has two of them, thus providing the bonus attack. The other player said that to comply with the FAQ that the wargear entry would had to have had stated "claws, which each count as a single-handed weapon".

How should this have been resolved? Thanks in advance!!

Claws and tail is one weapon.

Same thing applies to Tyranids. Tyranids who don't posses any special weapons are generally said to be armed with "claws and teeth" and any additional attacks the codex writers felt were needed to represent all their pointy bits have been included in their profile. Any argument against this logic results in units like the Mawloc having a possible 4 additional attacks beyond their stat line.

I'd say that claws is one weapon (as there is no and in the listing)

For wraiths i'd argue the other way as it lists claws and tail, and there is no diffence in the wording there than the orks slugga and choppa, or the marines bolt pistol and cc weapon etc (except that they aren't ranged weapons, but that's irrelevant to the point)

I think the Nids have a specific wording in the codex for their 'claws' teeth' 'bad attitude' etc. Hopefully come the next Necron codex (ie in a decade or so) they'll have learned to clarify these things, and maybe even make an electrified tail do something other than break when you move the model..

"Claws and Tail" is one weapon, and one weapon only.

Ascalam wrote:I'd say that claws is one weapon (as there is no and in the listing)

For wraiths i'd argue the other way as it lists claws and tail, and there is no diffence in the wording there than the orks slugga and choppa, or the marines bolt pistol and cc weapon etc (except that they aren't ranged weapons, but that's irrelevant to the point)

I think the Nids have a specific wording in the codex for their 'claws' teeth' 'bad attitude' etc. Hopefully come the next Necron codex (ie in a decade or so) they'll have learned to clarify these things, and maybe even make an electrified tail do something other than break when you move the model..

Multiple "things" (be they claws, teath, or flying beetles) are different from multiple items which are defined in the BRB as being "close combat weapons" which provide additional attacks.

It's all incorporated in their stat line. The only reason anything is listed under "weapons" for them is to clarify what exactly they are using in CC to cause the wounds (for whatever reason it matters, which really is none). It's purely from an informational standpoint and has no bearing on them.

And it says this where in the codex?

If you can point me to the passage saying this i'll happily concede.

The only one that i'd argue is the wraiths,really, and it's more a point of interest than a must-be-right scenario, as i so rarely use them

I'd say they gain one attack, but it's already include in the profile.

The Tomb Spyder has two CC weapons, but if you remove one, it lose one attack, so definitely.

No, the tomb spyder has 3 attacks and if you give it the particle cannon or whatever it is reduced to 2 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ascalam wrote:And it says this where in the codex?

If you can point me to the passage saying this i'll happily concede.

The only one that i'd argue is the wraiths,really, and it's more a point of interest than a must-be-right scenario, as i so rarely use them

Show me where in the armory for necrons it states claws and tails as weapons and what they do for the units.
Also remembering that a models base attack is 1 anyway, it would stand to presume that, for flayed ones, the addition of the two claws would add 1 attack bringing them to 2 attacks (as stated in the profile).
Same with wraiths, base attack of 1 and adding in two claws and a barbed tail for two extra attacks would bring them up to three attacks (as stated in their profile).

This is akin to the "claws and teeth" nid discussion from months past. My call is NO, "claws" are not two single handed weapons anymore than a guardsman's fists are two single handed weapons. "Claws and tail"? Nope again! Unless there is an entry somewhere saying that the tail is a weapon and the claws are another weapon.

Is the logic perfect from a rules standpoint? No, I concede that it is weak. I concede as such because the definition of close combat weapon is very broad. However there is nothing clarifying that the claws are a piece of wargear separate and apart from the unit. The flayed ones are not 'equipped with two claws.' Had language like that been used (and, hell, maybe it is! I don't have the dex!) then I think the argument would much favor granting the extra attack.

That is 'my call.'

'This is akin to the "claws and teeth" nid discussion from months past'

somewhat, but the nids have a specific clause in the codex that says that the attacks for those are in the profile, and Nids can't gain extra attacks for extra weapons any other way. The Crons do not, hence the arguement..


Given that the only close combat weapon defined as such in the Necron Codex is the warscythe i guess the next step is to claim that only models with a warscythe have a cc weapon

The codex predates the current trend of listing each piece of wargear on the unit entry (to avoid this kind of argument) so it's really hard to tell what was intended 10+ years ago. I seem to remember the older codexes listing things more as this and this, rather than listing them in bullet points..

Does anyone have any OFFICIAL tactica/articles/battle reports with wraiths or flayed ones that show this issue, or is it going to be a case of Necrons vs the rest of the world on the opinions?

I don't know one way or the other but I hope both Flayed Ones and Wraiths get the +1A. Isn't that their role; to be dedicated CC units in an otherwise shooty army?

I am all in favor of letting necron players getting the +1A, I just don't know if the rules actually support it.

its pretty damn ambiguous

Necrons didn't used to suck in CC, when they were written. Its the changes to CC in later editions that made tem suck, especially with the ld - losses in combat thing and the fact that being swept disallows WBB for some reason (fluffwise I don't see why, ruleswise i'll concede it, i guess) ..

I'll start digging through my old white dwarfs i guess, though the crons are pretty rare in those too..

no love for the machines.. it's no wonder skynet.. um i mean the Ctan... want to wipe out all life..

You can't count them as many attack or it break the system. If you count each claw as an attack nothing would stop you to have 20 claws on a model because most rule do not specify how many arms you figurine has.

Here is my new sister army

'You can't count them as many attack or it break the system. If you count each claw as an attack nothing would stop you to have 20 claws on a model because most rule do not specify how many arms you figurine has. '



obviously you have never run across the Blood Angels-

2 Claws, infinite attacks ...

Does this break the system? Well, yes, but it doesn't seem to slow BA players down a bit...

The models in question have 2 arms with claws on each hand. We aren't discussing converted models, but the unmodded ones. The one i'm more interested in is the wraith, as it list two seperate weapons (claws, tail) which may, or may not, count as seperate ccw. To use your indian goddess example (nice pic btw) it wouldn't matter how many arms had claws as they' still be 'claws', or how many tails, but the goddess would still have both claws (1, 2, 50 whatever) and tail/tails (ditto)..

The simple answer is...claws and/or tail are not listed in the BRB or the Necron codex as providing additional attacks in CC.

unless you count the claws as a close combat weapon, and the tail as an additional close combat weapon, which is the crux of the debate

All models are assumed to have some form of close combat weapon, and most don't bother listing them under wargear. The more recent ones do, which i appreciate, but the necron dex is older than some of the players at my flgs..

Which you cannot do, as you have no rule permitting it.

You do not get an additional attack, period.

As a Necron player, I'd like to be able to agree with you, but I can't. Instead of considering them weapons, consider them bare hands, like a regular marine in close combat. How many bonus attacks would he have with bare fists? Unless they explicitly indicate the claws count as a close combat weapon, which they don't, you can't get a bonus.

Ouze wrote:As a Necron player, I'd like to be able to agree with you, but I can't. Instead of considering them weapons, consider them bare hands, like a regular marine in close combat. How many bonus attacks would he have with bare fists? Unless they explicitly indicate the claws count as a close combat weapon, which they don't, you can't get a bonus.

This echos my feelings exactly.

Ouze wrote:As a Necron player, I'd like to be able to agree with you, but I can't. Instead of considering them weapons, consider them bare hands, like a regular marine in close combat. How many bonus attacks would he have with bare fists? Unless they explicitly indicate the claws count as a close combat weapon, which they don't, you can't get a bonus.

Don't forget feet. marines can kick also.

So they have *4* CC weapons now...

The Deciever does not even HAVE a weapon--how does that work anyway?



(Or is that my non-reprinted codex again?)

A flayed one is pretty much a warrior without the gauss rifle.... That's why it's got 2 attacks instead of 1 like the warrior. They replaced the gun with the second attack.

coredump wrote:

Ouze wrote:As a Necron player, I'd like to be able to agree with you, but I can't. Instead of considering them weapons, consider them bare hands, like a regular marine in close combat. How many bonus attacks would he have with bare fists? Unless they explicitly indicate the claws count as a close combat weapon, which they don't, you can't get a bonus.

Don't forget feet. marines can kick also.

So they have *4* CC weapons now...

They have a head, they can headbutt with that too, so that's five CC Weapons.

As for the discussion, does the stat line for that necron unit not list the number of attacks it gets? I think I'm missing something here.

DangerousFat wrote:

As for the discussion, does the stat line for that necron unit not list the number of attacks it gets? I think I'm missing something here.

Kevin949 wrote:*snip*
Also remembering that a models base attack is 1 anyway, it would stand to presume that, for flayed ones, the addition of the two claws would add 1 attack bringing them to 2 attacks (as stated in the profile).
Same with wraiths, base attack of 1 and adding in two claws and a barbed tail for two extra attacks would bring them up to three attacks (as stated in their profile).

I feel I answered this pretty well up top.

Kevin949 wrote:

DangerousFat wrote:

As for the discussion, does the stat line for that necron unit not list the number of attacks it gets? I think I'm missing something here.

Kevin949 wrote:*snip*
Also remembering that a models base attack is 1 anyway, it would stand to presume that, for flayed ones, the addition of the two claws would add 1 attack bringing them to 2 attacks (as stated in the profile).
Same with wraiths, base attack of 1 and adding in two claws and a barbed tail for two extra attacks would bring them up to three attacks (as stated in their profile).

I feel I answered this pretty well up top.

That's my point, why are we even having this argument? If the stat line says 1 attack, they get one, if it says 15, they get 15. If a weapon STATES they get +x attacks, they get +x attacks. I'm confused as to how this is a topic.

Its a question of definition, specifically of the wraith and whether it has an additional close combat weapon for having two weapons listed on its entry, or just one.

Additional close combat weapons generally weren't figured into the statlines on older codexes, as far as i can tell. I used to play sisters and grey knights. There would often be unit entries with a model having something like - bolt pistol and close combat weapon, or 2 close combat weapons in the wargear, but only one attack.

Actually the main reason i'm arguing it at present is to see what ass-hat replies i get from people who don't read the actual crux of the debate

'Don't forget feet. marines can kick also.

So they have *4* CC weapons now... '

If Power Armour Boot and close combat weapon was on the marine statline i might agree with you.

The feet are not listed under the entry. The wraiths weapon (s) ARE.

As people seem to be smugly concluding that as they answered earlier therefore they're correct i'll leave this one alone.

Nice debate guys, for those that actually added constructive arguments

Ascalam wrote:Actually the main reason i'm arguing it at present is to see what. . .replies i get from people who don't read the actual crux of the debate

OH! Well then. Rifle butts are listed as CC weapons, so almost all Necrons should get +1 more attack, right?

The thing about any codex is that any weapons that add attacks will be listed in the armory with definitions as such. There is nothing stated as such in the necron armory to tell you WHAT you get from what is listed in the unit entries, so you can't confer what you THINK you get. Again, the extra attacks in their statline are already taken into consideration. The same is said for the destroyers and heavy destroyers having the modified toughness value for being jetbikes, it is already factored into their statline as their actual normal value, not a modified value. If the wraiths and flayed ones had extra attacks it would either be listed in their description, in the armory or in their stat line as "Attacks 3(4)".