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I have been playing 40k for what is approaching 20 years now. I have a crazy amount of old models. Many of these are a lot smaller than the current edition figures because GW has decided to make their figures larger as of late. Since I am currently playing Orks a lot I will bring up the Trukks and Battlewagons. I have 3 of the old Rogue Trader Battlewagons, and 4 of the Gorka Morka Trukks. They are both smaller than the new GW ones, but both GW models. Do I think the new BW's and Trukks are cool, yes, but do I want to spend $300 upgrading to new models, not really. I like the old ones. Anyways, I am wondering if people feel that me using those models constitutes modeling for advantage. They are mostly fielded stock out of the box with some bitz and bobs added to represent things like grabbing klaws and boarding planks. I don't feel that I should be punished for not upgrading to new kits, but am worried the models won't be allowed in tourneys. Feedback would be appreciated.

First off: it is always the TOs decision. Nothing we say will alter that fact

Secondly: most dont really care, from experience. Or, they get their geek on and simply love the older models, and get waaay too excited about some lead figures they havent seen in years.

To sum up: you shouldnt have an issue, however a TO can make any ruling they wish.

That was my thought as far as the TO making a ruling based on however they feel at that particular moment, but I wanted to work up a consensus here so that I had a more coherent e-mail to send to them so I don't have any arguments on the day of.

To be honest sending them a list of arguments is unlikely to do you any favours. Simply say that you have a bunch of old models (giving examples) and ask if they are ok to use. If they then question your ability to use them, THEN hit them with the rules arguments - such as the fact they are citadel miniatures, which is what the game rules require, as an example.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will do that.

1) The rules say you're supposed to use official citadel/gw models on the bases they were supplied with. You're technically meeting the criteria even if your models (like some of mine in my older armies) are out of date. Most tourney organizers (but not all) have a fair understanding of the history of the game and its models and will recognize your stuff as such. on the off chance you get one that doesn't, i'd bring an old WD or army book showing that your models are indeed official ones. (i do this with my blood angels and the RT landraider after a stranger came up to me and said i was modelling for advantage by using a "non-gw" model). i think you'll have more problems with younger players in this regard than the tourney organizers but it's the organizer's opinion that matters most. just be prepared for people to be suprised and whiny when your trukks get cover for low hedges when the newer ones wouldn't. if you've got infantry figs that come on bases that have changed since the old days (i can't think of any off the top of my head regarding orks other than mega-armored guys), i'd buy and bring some spare bases of the new size. if someone complains, you can offer to put the new size bases under your model to conform with the current style; this is technically against RAW (you're supposed to use bases supplied) but i've found that this easy solution soothes over alot of problems. it's more of an issue regarding RT IG heavy weapons troopers since they switched from 25mm bases to 60mm bases over the past 20 years.

2) Most (not all but most) tourneys require you to be WYSIWIG for your entire army to avoid confusion. You've already said that you've added bits to represent wargear (the old kits were quite sparse in those regards) but i'd make sure that you're 100% compliant on this part. being completely WYSIWIG throws that part of the argument out.

as stated above, tourney organizers can put whatever restrictions they want on the game so i'd check ahead of time. while i wouldn't argue with them from the get-go, i would state in the initial email/conversation that you're using 100% official gw (i'd count armorcast stuff in that) models that are 100% wysiwig as that should cover alot of the bases that an organizer would be worried about.

warboss wrote: i'd buy and bring some spare bases of the new size. if someone complains, you can offer to put the new size bases under your model to conform with the current style; this is technically against RAW (you're supposed to use bases supplied) but i've found that this easy solution soothes over alot of problems. it's more of an issue regarding RT IG heavy weapons troopers since they switched from 25mm bases to 60mm bases over the past 20 years.

I've dealt with that problem by cutting out some circles of black plasticard the size of the new base and gluing them to the bottom of the old base. Don't have to try and remount a figure and a lot of the times the larger base helps keep the model from tipping over; especially on things like Termies or the old SAG. Also, if someone says that you should use the original base ... it's still there, just ignore the flat plasticard. If they think you should use the new size, then make all measurements from the plasticard.

also to add to that, its most likly gonna depend on the type of tournament you plan on going to. you go to a GT tournament i think ur going to have a tough time with the people playing. most of the people will probly say its some kind of form of cheating....i seen it in an ard boyz tourney. but if ur planning on going to a local tournament or casual game with someone, i dont see the reason for anyone to have an issue with it. after all they are really just the same model, and function the same as the new ones.

As an ork player of almost 18 years now, I went through this exact situation.

I had a fleet of 6 gorkamorka trukks and 2 converted BWs which I used from 3rd edition armageddon speed freeks.

It was a common tactic to screen all my trukks behind my BW turn 1 and then pounce! This worked fine in 3rd edition rules.

5th edition when the new trukks came out, my larger than life BWs and my skateboard trukks came under massive scrutiny. Even asking a TO before hand stopped working because as soon as someone complained, even if I was allowed to use my models it ruins the event. being 'technically correct' doesn't always work out in a social environment, especially if people feel cheated by it.

Since I actually like to enjoy tourneys and not be in conflict for no good reason, My GorkaMorak trukks became buggies, My oversized BW's got busted up and redone into smaller BWs and Lootwagons (re-using the parts to keep the soul intact) and my Armorcast BW became a nice converted Weirdboy tower who is a counts-as boomwagon.

Now with having official trukks and GW BW-sized BWs, no one seems to complain and it is one less thing to worry about. Honestly, I can understand some people's issue because the small trukks abuse the metagame and have an advantage not paid for or balanced for. For 'friendly' gaming, not a huge issue but for a competitive environment, I do support attempting to reach the official current model's footprint and profile.

I've used old RT era IG on their original hex bases at GW US GTs, every comment I got from the staff was positive and encouraging.

My issue is with Dinky-fexes.

The guy in questionat the tourneys HAS 6 of the newer fexes, all painted, modeled and magentized.

Any non-tourney game he's using these fexes, and they are awesome.

At tourneys he pulls out his 2nd edition screamer killers which are about the size of a tyranid warrior and can practically get cover from gaunts...

It was worse when sniperfexes were still legal, but i'll bet next tourney that they will be Tyrannofexes (the size of chihuahuas )

I LIKE a lot of the old models, and for most armies it doesn't make too much difference (cough Rhinos cough) but when you KNOW for certain that the person has better painted, more recent models of the same type it gets a bit annoying, especially since he will refuse to switch them out and the TO doesn't care. Not much I can do about it, but it's still aggravating.

I do have a few outdated models of my own, but they stay on the shelf at tournaments.

I use my RT SM in tourneys - no issues.

From the RTB001 SM to my rhino transports.

My Eldar are half RT /2nd ed models (The falcon, Vyper and Fire Prism are all 2nd ed models for example) - my guardians are mostly RT/2nd ed.

Even my guard uses RT infantry (plastic Imperial Army box) and I've had no issues with them either.

Most of the TOs I know started at least back in 2nd ed, and are familiar with the models.

If I inform the TO of the models I am using, and he ok's them for use, then the opinion of some snot-nosed punkling who is younger than my dice won't count for squat.

Thanks for all of the feedback. I really appreciate it.

Now that I am thinking about model size and base size it occurs to me that there is actually a crazy lack of organization with the orks and characters now as well. The metal warboss comes on a 25mm base while the plastic black reach one comes on a 40mm base. At the same time, the Mek's with KFF's and Shock Attack Guns come on 40mm bases, and I think Mad Dok Grotsnik comes on a 25mm one. A quick look around the marine section of the GW site looks like they have the same lack of coherence the Orks do. It is almost enough to make me toss my hands up in frusturation and give up completely at the notion of being consistent. After all, how can I be consistent when GW isn't even close with their base sizes. I do however, understand what folks are saying about not wanting my opponents to feel as if I am cheating. I just own these models and don't have $400 to replace my trukks and Battlewagons.

1: Don't feel frustrated. Any game of this magnitude, this old, with this many problems with power scaling updates... well, it's going to happen eventually. Frankly it's amazing it's as well put together as it is considering it's massive changes. Hopefully, you'll be facing an oppnonet who knows and plays to a degree that you getting a +5 cover save for playing a slightly smaller model version won't be worth raising a stink about. On the other hand, current rules were built around current models. While every TO I've seen allows vastly alternate models, they would be within their rights to restrict you.

BTW: I saw an ork player make Trukks out of Chinese tank models and a heavy toilet paper tube for his rolla. And my FGS TO agreed. Of course, it was a teenager with annoying tendencies and a poor grasp of the game, but I'm just trying to show you how most local tourneys rule. They follow FAQS and the BIG rule book to the letter.

2: While cover quantity may be the arguing factor, actual size of bases very rarely is, in the exceptions of specific rules (I.E., Space Wolves hero) that rely on the size of bases. Measuring distance to movement and shooting make no difference on the base size. You always measure from the front. So no matter how big a infantry base is, your movement and shooting should not change. It will make some difference, sligtly, during assault with tons of models piling in.

But honestly, if TO's veto your models, they have every right to do so. Most won't, except the BIG tourneys. And if you're the kind of guy who doesn't want to spend $400 on models to convert for a BIG tourney, then you're probably the kind of guy who won't get tore up about not being accepted in BIG tourneys and happy to play in local ones.

forget about those idiots. you spent good money on your models don't have somebody make em illegal lol

Thanks for all of the positive responses. The guy running this specific tourney doesn't seem inclined towards the older models and has pretty much told me that since the old Battlewagon is only 1.75" inches high and the new one is 2.5 inches high, or more if you include the turrets (but Orks can't shoot so that is just silly) I can claim cover from all kinds of things and thus I would have to play the Wagons as if they were 3" high and my trukks as if they were several inches higher as well. I feel like then I am being punished for the fact that GW has decided to make newer and larger models. I'm not trying to get easy cover saves. Hell, I'm an Ork player so you can assume that I will be using a KFF, so the cover isn't really a big deal, but I feel that at the same time I am being held over the coals on this one.

Am I being craky and old or reasonable?

You're not being punished, it just means everyone is on the same playing field, old models or new models.

laughterofgods wrote:Thanks for all of the positive responses. The guy running this specific tourney doesn't seem inclined towards the older models and has pretty much told me that since the old Battlewagon is only 1.75" inches high and the new one is 2.5 inches high, or more if you include the turrets (but Orks can't shoot so that is just silly) I can claim cover from all kinds of things and thus I would have to play the Wagons as if they were 3" high and my trukks as if they were several inches higher as well. I feel like then I am being punished for the fact that GW has decided to make newer and larger models. I'm not trying to get easy cover saves. Hell, I'm an Ork player so you can assume that I will be using a KFF, so the cover isn't really a big deal, but I feel that at the same time I am being held over the coals on this one.

Am I being craky and old or reasonable?

while you're not being held over the coals, i do think he's making the wrong decision here. if you had instead kitbashed some toys or revell WWII trucks to the size in question, i would agree with him... but you're using official models and he should penalize you for GW updating them. assuming he is charging for the tourney, you ultimately vote with your wallet. if you do decide to go regardless, bring a small cardboard template to put underneath the trukks with the silhouette of the current trukks (which are wider and longer). the extra size should help you with disembarking and charge range. if you're going to be penalized for having a smaller model, you might as well have the benefits too.

The TO is in a no-win situation... You want to use old models that give a serious in-game advantage not paid for by points. Others can and will feel cheated and complain to the TO. No matter what position he takes, *someone* is going to be upset about it regardless of the justification or who is right or wrong.

That is why I voluntarily traded bitz and looked for cheap deals online to re-build my fleet of trukks because 'being technically correct' doesn't mean people will agree with you and tourneys are supposed to be fun. I don't need to cause drama everywhere I go and rage against the machine about 'gamers rights'.

TO has the right to do whatever he wants in his tourney... And while his decision may upset you, it is possibly making your potential 3 opponents much happier. Always ask ahead of time instead of making a scene at the event.

i use my original 1990 eldar avatar all the time mounted on his 25mm base. i've had people say hes the "epic" version of the avatar, so i whip out my epic avatar from adeptus titatincus.

if the model is the model and its wysiwig then play it and it should be legal. if you have scratch built things thats another story.

I find that as long as you have one of the new models to substitute for a footprint of the older models, it will appease even the most hardcore opponents. Now it will slow the game down terribly and be clunky, so a reasonable opponent will not ask for the model substitution often. I maintain one official BW and 2 converted wagons of similar size to an official BW.

Sadly, the rollerskate trukks are a wonderful relic which can be screened completely by stormboyz. This is about the modeling equivalent of attaching Ghazghull or a biker warboss to Snikrot's Kommandoes and coming in from your opponent's board edge. Yes, you can do it by the rules, but should you?

For most of us, the answer is no. On the plus side, they do make much better buggies than the current range and the money you'll save on those ought to balance out the cost of replacing the trukks with current models.

I hate those damn gorkamorka trucks in any game with true line of sight I think they give a huge advantage and in my mind this makes using them a little unsporting even if they are legal rules wise.

That being said I think you could "beef" the trucks up with gubbins to make them larger

nkelsch wrote:The TO is in a no-win situation... You want to use old models that give a serious in-game advantage not paid for by points. Others can and will feel cheated and complain to the TO. No matter what position he takes, *someone* is going to be upset about it regardless of the justification or who is right or wrong.

That is why I voluntarily traded bitz and looked for cheap deals online to re-build my fleet of trukks because 'being technically correct' doesn't mean people will agree with you and tourneys are supposed to be fun. I don't need to cause drama everywhere I go and rage against the machine about 'gamers rights'.

TO has the right to do whatever he wants in his tourney... And while his decision may upset you, it is possibly making your potential 3 opponents much happier. Always ask ahead of time instead of making a scene at the event.

This.

GW updates rules and models every time a codex is released, and often old models are outmoded or rendered unusable. The old Trukks had a good run; what, 11 years? But speaking candidly as someone who's played regularly against Orks since 1999, I got kind of sick of how tiny and easy to hide they were.

Much better to either turn them into buggies and replace them, or build them up using plasticard and bitz until they are comparable to the size of the current model. Several ork players of my acquaintance over the last decade did that anyway, purely for aesthetic value, and it's a great way to keep your loved old models in service.

Okay first of all, PICTURES!!! Rogue Trader models are indescribably awesome and I think there is a law that says if you make a thread concerning them you have to post pictures for everyone to adore.

Alright there is no such law, but you should do it anyway because Rogue Trader is the genesis of all win. Especially if you have Zoats or any of the old Tyranids models. Old-school Warriors were seriously great.

Secondly... what nkelsch said. It's sad, but thems the brakes unfortunately, especially in a scenario where you're playing advantageously small models against paying entrants competing for prizes. TOs have to do what's best for the event.

In summary; post pictures!!!

I have an original Avatar model. Can I start fielding that? JK

Most tourneys have rules that models must be some percent GW and/or says something about scratchbuilt. Make sure that your's fit. On cover saves from older models that are larger/smaller, isn't that what the "make the save one worse" rule is for? I for one like to see older models, especially if they are painted well.

In my Deathwing army, started when the DA book was old school, my Belial model is the old Termi captain who is the size of a regular power armoured space marine. I put him on a 40 mm base. I also made all of my characters (Belial, Chaplain, Librarian) in "heroic" poses. They are standing on some rubble that makes them about a head taller than the regular Termies. Is that modeling for advantage?

Homer

The real solution here is to not play tournaments.

Homer S wrote:I have an original Avatar model. Can I start fielding that? JK

At a local tournament one guy did just that. TFG threw a strop, but the TOs and everyone else who gathered round in light of the commotion agreed that anyone that much dedication to the hobby deserves a slightly-harder to see Avatar.

I field him... as a Spiritseer with Singing Spear.

Homer

Homer S wrote:I field him... as a Spiritseer with Singing Spear.

Homer

Smart man. That's a good solution- using the cool old model without deriving an inappropriate advantage from it.


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Homer S wrote:In my Deathwing army, started when the DA book was old school, my Belial model is the old Termi captain who is the size of a regular power armoured space marine. I put him on a 40 mm base. I also made all of my characters (Belial, Chaplain, Librarian) in "heroic" poses. They are standing on some rubble that makes them about a head taller than the regular Termies. Is that modeling for advantage?

Almost certainly not. If you were running one of these new-school-post-2011-FAQ Deathwing armies with Cyclones in every squad, and had modeled the Cyclone models to all be taller so they got better LOS, that would be.


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Rymafyr wrote:The real solution here is to not play tournaments.

IMO you're missing out if you do that. Especially for us working adults, tournaments are a fantastic way to get three games in on a Saturday, meet and hang out with some new gamers, and see new and cool armies. IMO those are the best reasons to play in tournaments; winning anything is purely a secondary or tertiary consideration.

I couldn't care less about winning at the tournaments i go to, and am totally stunned if i even place.

I mainly go to play against new armies and new gamers, and to socialize with a group of 40k gamers who actually nderstand what the bleep i'm talking about

I play my wife and a couple of friends, but it's nice to be up against an army you don't have a strategy to deal with. Then you actually have to think, and you get more involved in the game.

If i was out to win, i would take something other than my Necrons On the upside it's fun to go up against someone who has never faced necrons and watch his missilespam bounce off the lith or his CC specialists bounce off a C'tan.