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Until I joined dakkadakka I hadn't really heard of 'lash lists' and all that. Since I'm one of the only Chaos players in the area I game in this was new news to me. I read into it and it seems, to me, that 'lash lists' are a bit on the cheesy side. I get the draw but I just can't bring myself to do it.

What are your thoughts, Dakka?

Basically if the opponent transports up it counters the lash. I think a good change to lash in the next edition would to make your opponent move 2d6 inches that direction, rather than allowing the lash opponent to bunch up the unit.

Yeah I think in the NEXT edition of the chaos codex we should get rid of the only powerful thing they have left! Why should they have any kind of unique advantage, just water down every single thing they have and make sure it's all worse than the stuff the other armies have gotten. Who needs effective units when you can make COOL CONVERSIONS of CHAOS SPAWN?! OMG AWESOME!

Christ leave it alone. Lash can be countered by smart players.

A) Mech up. Lash now becomes like a plasma cannon, in that unless the transport is popped, it's not going to be screwing with the infantry inside much at all.

B) Interlace units. Lash can't move models through models so if you interlock your units without space between the bases to move through - and not even across the whole unit, just here and there, since he can't move them out of coherency - then they can't move the unit. If they had two lashes they could theoretically move one a bit to allow the other to be moved, but that becomes two lashes to get one unit and if a single one of them fails the psychic test or rolls too low for the movement, it's all a waste.

C) Just kill the damn daemon princes. Sternguard, darklances, missle launchers, just spam small arms fire. If they have lash they're not toughness 6 and it's like trying to kill 4 bikers. Can you kill 4 bikers with bolter fire? Then do it to the daemon prince.

Lash isn't cheesy, it's a tool. Blood Angels can give a unit rerolls to hit. Black Templars get free consolidations towards you. Space Marines can auto-fallback and rob you of assaults, or get twin-linked melta weaponry. It's an army quirk, it's what chaos GETS. Use it.

Spellbound wrote:Lash isn't cheesy, it's a tool. Blood Angels can give a unit rerolls to hit. Black Templars get free consolidations towards you. Space Marines can auto-fallback and rob you of assaults, or get twin-linked melta weaponry. It's an army quirk, it's what chaos GETS. Use it.

I suppose I can't disagree with this statement too much. You sound a tiny bit salty but otherwise you drive a good point home.

Well, I play a Slanneshi army with NM or CSM w/ MoS as troops.
In such an army two winged lash Princes are a mandatory choice.
Cheesy or not, its 40k. Don't care about cheese at all.

I mean, I agree that winning is winning but since my buddies and I play pretty casually (things get heated sometimes!) it's never fun when someone brings something to the table that could be considered 'cheesy', 'cheap', 'unfair', and so on.
I guess it's all part of the game, though, right?

Yeah, when Lemartes suffers a wound and goes charging into combat with seven S6 attacks that reroll misses and reroll wounds, along with buddies with 4 attacks each at S5, WS5, I5 that reroll misses and reroll failed wounds and have feel no pain and are fearless, but cost the same as khorne berserkers......


Yeah I'm taking lash. And I'm going to smile as I do it. And when those badass berserker/plaguemarine combination deathmachines are pulled into a bunch and battle cannon'ed, I'm going to cheer and that's just the way it is. Because if I didn't do that, you wouldn't want me whining the same way when they got to me.

silpheedpilot wrote:I mean, I agree that winning is winning but since my buddies and I play pretty casually (things get heated sometimes!) it's never fun when someone brings something to the table that could be considered 'cheesy', 'cheap', 'unfair', and so on.
I guess it's all part of the game, though, right?

Well, there are always tactics to counter other units effectively.
E.g., the lash doesn't work well vs. a mech list,
Dev's with missile launchers eventually take down a DP pretty easily.

Yeah, when Lemartes suffers a wound and goes charging into combat with seven S6 attacks that reroll misses and reroll wounds, along with buddies with 4 attacks each at S5, WS5, I5 that reroll misses and reroll failed wounds and have feel no pain and are fearless, but cost the same as khorne berserkers......

HAHAHAHA... to use Lemartes, you have to use jump pack DC - the worst unit in the BA codex. Those guys are 35pts per model and they have RAGE!, meaning that unit (which costs at minimum 255 pts for 3DC+Lemartes) will fly around chasing speeders or scratching the paint off land raiders. That's the poorest excuse for a whine I've ever heard


The problem with lash isn't so much the tabletop effect, it is a rule that allows your opponent to touch and move your models. Greasy-fingered lash players is why everybody hates lash.

Um....you can take Lemartes without jump DC, they'll just move six inches. Nothing says the DC have to have jump packs to take Lemartes. It keeps them out of rhinos and landraiders, but you can put 10 plus Lemartes in a Stormraven just fine.

And that's fine, if the enemy has landspeeders. Most armies don't, and the wording of "must move towards" is nice and vague in that as long as I'm closer to the unit than I started, I've fulfilled that obligation. So I can continue to move towards what I want to murder as long as I'm still moving in the general direction of the closest enemy unit.

And if a bunch of re-rolling misses S9 powerfist attacks can't kill that landraider, then hey life sucks.

A single lash isn't cheesey at all. Double is kinda bad, but can be countered pretty easily, especially with all the stupid anti psycher on the tables these days.

juraigamer wrote:A single lash isn't cheesey at all. Double is kinda bad, but can be countered pretty easily, especially with all the stupid anti psycher on the tables these days.

In fact, the lash hardly works in the presence of an Eldar Farseer, with runes of warding.

Spellbound wrote:
And that's fine, if the enemy has landspeeders. Most armies don't, and the wording of "must move towards" is nice and vague in that as long as I'm closer to the unit than I started, I've fulfilled that obligation. So I can continue to move towards what I want to murder as long as I'm still moving in the general direction of the closest enemy unit.

And if a bunch of re-rolling misses S9 powerfist attacks can't kill that landraider, then hey life sucks.

I'm glad somebody else does this, besides me: it works wonderfully, and I've only had rage play a negative effect on my Death Company once (chased a destroyer-necron lord around the table). Every other time I've used them the way Spellbound said: only I do take jump packs and usually 5 to a Stormraven with Lemartes. It works wonders. Rage isn't a big deal at all. And on topic, Lash is pretty good, and it is one of the best things CSM can take, but it isn't a be-all, end-all kind of toy.

Lash is one of the few things that the Old CHaos codex has going for it. Compared with new lists like cheese wolves, Dark cheese, Blood cheese CHeese gaurd etc. CHaos should be allowed to field 5 sorcerers with lash. well ... maybe not five, but you get my point.
All of the newer dex kick butt with the exception of the nids codex which is still way better than the old chaos dex. Nothing cheesy about using one of your only available tools to try to get the job done.

sennacherib wrote:Lash is one of the few things that the Old CHaos codex has going for it. Compared with new lists like cheese wolves, Dark cheese, Blood cheese CHeese gaurd etc. CHaos should be allowed to field 5 sorcerers with lash. well ... maybe not five, but you get my point.
All of the newer dex kick butt with the exception of the nids codex which is still way better than the old chaos dex. Nothing cheesy about using one of your only available tools to try to get the job done.

I agree, good point!

what I don't like about it is that it gives people a reason to touch my models. I dont mind letting some people touch them but it is the only thing in the entire game that makes the opponent touch my models. I see this as a bit annoying.

Trickstick wrote:what I don't like about it is that it gives people a reason to touch my models. I dont mind letting some people touch them but it is the only thing in the entire game that makes the opponent touch my models. I see this as a bit annoying.

This is why I state just how I want your models to move, as in 9" towards my guys, or back, or whatever. Now if your gonna move them improperly or in your advantage, then I'll move your models.

Trickstick wrote:what I don't like about it is that it gives people a reason to touch my models. I dont mind letting some people touch them but it is the only thing in the entire game that makes the opponent touch my models. I see this as a bit annoying.

This can easily be avoided just let your opponent know about your model syndrome before the game starts and I am sure he will let you move the models instead, I dont see how from a tactical standpoint it matters who actually moves the models as long as they are moved.

Wings + Mon + Warptime > Lash. If you want to use a sub-par build go ahead.

Lash can be very useful & seen as a drty little trick but MoN means str 4 needs 6's to hurt you. That's the majority of fire you will be taking. Warptime almost guarantees all your hits & wounds will cause damage.

So while people will tote lash around like it's the greatest thing chaos ever received I will still say I'd rather have MoN & Warptime. Why move my opponent off an objective when I can fly in & beat them to death without any real fear of being wounded in retaliation?

Because if they have a plasma vet squad or LF missile pack around, or SM PFists it doesn't care about T6 so much? Because templates (obliterator, vindicator, defiler) are much more useful when you can bunch the target? Because pulling people out of cover is a Good Thing?

Nurgle DPs are great, but they are just a (big) beatstick. Lash is a valuable tactical tool.

silpheedpilot wrote:Until I joined dakkadakka I hadn't really heard of 'lash lists' and all that. Since I'm one of the only Chaos players in the area I game in this was new news to me. I read into it and it seems, to me, that 'lash lists' are a bit on the cheesy side. I get the draw but I just can't bring myself to do it.

What are your thoughts, Dakka?

They're okay. I've actually run a fluffy list with slaanesh-based stuff, and that lessens the . Slaanesh lists actually make sense now that DE are floating around everywhere (I5 is good, as are blastmasters and sonic blasters against 5+ guys)

I ran this against some DE player:

Lash Prince with wings
Lash sorcerer with Terminator Armour

x5 Terminators, x5 lightning claws, MOS

Troops- x10 Noise Marines, x5 sonic blasters, x1 blastmaster, champion with powersword and Doom siren, rhino with havoc
Troops- x10 Noise Marines, x5 sonic blasters, x1 blastmaster, champion with powersword and Doom siren, rhino with havoc
Troops- x5 Plague marines, x2 melta, champion with fist, rhino

Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 missiles, IOCG
Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 autocannons, IOCG
Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 autocannons, IOCG

Or something like that. The plague marine unit was just for fun, despite having nothing to do after my autocannons popped all the transports. Pretty free list.

Warp Time means the Nurgle beatstick also has a decent shot at stopping a transport moving over 6", which can be an extremely valuable tactical tool as well.

That said, I do make more use of Lash. It's certainly beatable, but very useful.

The worst part of Lash is people complaining about it.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

silpheedpilot wrote:Until I joined dakkadakka I hadn't really heard of 'lash lists' and all that. Since I'm one of the only Chaos players in the area I game in this was new news to me. I read into it and it seems, to me, that 'lash lists' are a bit on the cheesy side. I get the draw but I just can't bring myself to do it.

What are your thoughts, Dakka?

They're okay. I've actually run a fluffy list with slaanesh-based stuff, and that lessens the . Slaanesh lists actually make sense now that DE are floating around everywhere (I5 is good, as are blastmasters and sonic blasters against 5+ guys)

I ran this against some DE player:

Lash Prince with wings
Lash sorcerer with Terminator Armour

x5 Terminators, x5 lightning claws, MOS

Troops- x10 Noise Marines, x5 sonic blasters, x1 blastmaster, champion with powersword and Doom siren, rhino with havoc
Troops- x10 Noise Marines, x5 sonic blasters, x1 blastmaster, champion with powersword and Doom siren, rhino with havoc
Troops- x5 Plague marines, x2 melta, champion with fist, rhino

Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 missiles, IOCG
Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 autocannons, IOCG
Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 autocannons, IOCG

Or something like that. The plague marine unit was just for fun, despite having nothing to do after my autocannons popped all the transports. Pretty free list.

Not that I subscribe to the whole "cheese" thing, but how is tailoring your list against a specific army not "cheese"?

tedurur wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:

silpheedpilot wrote:Until I joined dakkadakka I hadn't really heard of 'lash lists' and all that. Since I'm one of the only Chaos players in the area I game in this was new news to me. I read into it and it seems, to me, that 'lash lists' are a bit on the cheesy side. I get the draw but I just can't bring myself to do it.

What are your thoughts, Dakka?

They're okay. I've actually run a fluffy list with slaanesh-based stuff, and that lessens the . Slaanesh lists actually make sense now that DE are floating around everywhere (I5 is good, as are blastmasters and sonic blasters against 5+ guys)

I ran this against some DE player:

Lash Prince with wings
Lash sorcerer with Terminator Armour

x5 Terminators, x5 lightning claws, MOS

Troops- x10 Noise Marines, x5 sonic blasters, x1 blastmaster, champion with powersword and Doom siren, rhino with havoc
Troops- x10 Noise Marines, x5 sonic blasters, x1 blastmaster, champion with powersword and Doom siren, rhino with havoc
Troops- x5 Plague marines, x2 melta, champion with fist, rhino

Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 missiles, IOCG
Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 autocannons, IOCG
Heavy- x5 havocs, x4 autocannons, IOCG

Or something like that. The plague marine unit was just for fun, despite having nothing to do after my autocannons popped all the transports. Pretty free list.

Not that I subscribe to the whole "cheese" thing, but how is tailoring your list against a specific army not "cheese"?

When I think of , I think of making lists that aren't fluffy (IE, plague marines, lash prince and obliterators). Tailoring your list to handle a certain army is just SMART

Tailoring is the sign of a poor player, and it is much worse than having a good list, even a "cheesy" list

Lash was cheesy in 4th edition-- right now, though, the prevalence of transports and/or psychic defense in competitive armies makes it a lot less viable.

Illumini wrote:Tailoring is the sign of a poor player, and it is much worse than having a good list, even a "cheesy" list

I don't really understand what you mean. One list can't work against everything. Tailoring is a completely reasonable thing to do. If I can't beat tyranids because I don't have enough templates, I'll tailor my list. If I can't beat guard because I don't have enough tank hunting stuff, I'll tailor my list. It certainly does NOT make a bad player. Any half competent person tailors their list for every game.

I think I've gone back in time to 2006. Really if you played 5th edition rules lash won't even be on your radar.