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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 15:52:25
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/15/south-dakota-abortion-bill_n_823326.html
A law under consideration in South Dakota would expand the definition of "justifiable homicide" to include killings that are intended to prevent harm to a fetus—a move that could make it legal to kill doctors who perform abortions. The Republican-backed legislation, House Bill 1171, has passed out of committee on a nine-to-three party-line vote, and is expected to face a floor vote in the state's GOP-dominated House of Representatives soon.
"The bill in South Dakota is an invitation to murder abortion providers."
The bill, sponsored by state Rep. Phil Jensen, a committed foe of abortion rights, alters the state's legal definition of justifiable homicide by adding language stating that a homicide is permissible if committed by a person "while resisting an attempt to harm" that person's unborn child or the unborn child of that person's spouse, partner, parent, or child. If the bill passes, it could in theory allow a woman's father, mother, son, daughter, or husband to kill anyone who tried to provide that woman an abortion—even if she wanted one.
Jensen did not return calls to his home or his office requesting comment on the bill, which is cosponsored by 22 other state representatives and four state senators.
"The bill in South Dakota is an invitation to murder abortion providers," says Vicki Saporta, the president of the National Abortion Federation, the professional association of abortion providers. Since 1993, eight doctors have been assassinated at the hands of anti-abortion extremists, and another 17 have been the victims of murder attempts. Some of the perpetrators of those crimes have tried to use the justifiable homicide defense at their trials. "This is not an abstract bill," Saporta says. The measure could have major implications if a "misguided extremist invokes this 'self-defense' statute to justify the murder of a doctor, nurse or volunteer," the South Dakota Campaign for Healthy Families warned in a message to supporters last week.
Advertise on MotherJones.com
The original version of the bill did not include the language regarding the "unborn child"; it was pitched as a simple clarification of South Dakota's justifiable homicide law. Last week, however, the bill was "hoghoused"—a term used in South Dakota for heavily amending legislation in committee—in a little-noticed hearing. A parade of right-wing groups—the Family Heritage Alliance, Concerned Women for America, the South Dakota branch of Phyllis Schlafly's Eagle Forum, and a political action committee called Family Matters in South Dakota—all testified in favor of the amended version of the law.
Jensen, the bill's sponsor, has said that he simply intends to bring "consistency" to South Dakota's criminal code, which already allows prosecutors to charge people with manslaughter or murder for crimes that result in the death of fetuses. But there's a difference between counting the murder of a pregnant woman as two crimes—which is permissible under law in many states—and making the protection of a fetus an affirmative defense against a murder charge.
"They always intended this to be a fetal personhood bill, they just tried to cloak it as a self-defense bill," says Kristin Aschenbrenner, a lobbyist for South Dakota Advocacy Network for Women. "They're still trying to cloak it, but they amended it right away, making their intent clear." The major change to the legislation also caught abortion rights advocates off guard. "None of us really felt like we were prepared," she says.
Sara Rosenbaum, a law professor at George Washington University who frequently testifies before Congress about abortion legislation, says the bill is legally dubious. "It takes my breath away," she says in an email to Mother Jones. "Constitutionally, a state cannot make it a crime to perform a constitutionally lawful act."
South Dakota already has some of the most restrictive abortion laws in the country, and one of the lowest abortion rates. Since 1994, there have been no providers in the state. Planned Parenthood flies a doctor in from out-of-state once a week to see patients at a Sioux Falls clinic. Women from the more remote parts of the large, rural state drive up to six hours to reach this lone clinic. And under state law women are then required to receive counseling and wait 24 hours before undergoing the procedure.
Before performing an abortion, a South Dakota doctor must offer the woman the opportunity to view a sonogram. And under a law passed in 2005, doctors are required to read a script meant to discourage women from proceeding with the abortion: "The abortion will terminate the life of a whole, separate, unique, living human being." Until recently, doctors also had to tell a woman seeking an abortion that she had "an existing relationship with that unborn human being" that was protected under the Constitution and state law and that abortion poses a "known medical risk" and "increased risk of suicide ideation and suicide." In August 2009, a US District Court Judge threw out those portions of the script, finding them "untruthful and misleading." The state has appealed the decision.
The South Dakota legislature has twice tried to ban abortion outright, but voters rejected the ban at the polls in 2006 and 2008, by a 12-point margin both times. Conservative lawmakers have since been looking to limit access any other way possible. "They seem to be taking an end run around that," says state Sen. Angie Buhl, a Democrat. "They recognize that people don't want a ban, so they are trying to seek a de facto ban by making it essentially impossible to access abortion services."
South Dakota's legislature is strongly tilted against abortion rights, which makes passing restrictions fairly easy. Just 19 of 70 House members and 5 of the 35 state senators are Democrats—and many of the Democrats also oppose abortion rights.
The law that would legalize killing abortion providers is just one of several measures under consideration in the state that would create more obstacles for a woman seeking an abortion. Another proposed law, House Bill 1217, would force women to undergo counseling at a Crisis Pregnancy Center (CPC) before they can obtain an abortion. CPCs are not regulated and are generally run by anti-abortion Christian groups and staffed by volunteers—not doctors or nurses—with the goal of discouraging women from having abortions.
A congressional investigation into CPCs in 2006 found that the centers often provide "false or misleading information about the health risks of an abortion"—alleging ties between abortion and breast cancer, negative impacts on fertility, and mental-health concerns. "This may advance the mission of the pregnancy resource centers, which are typically pro-life organizations dedicated to preventing abortion," the report concluded, "but it is an inappropriate public health practice." In a recent interview, state Rep. Roger Hunt, one of the bill's sponsors, acknowledged that its intent is to "drastically reduce" the number of abortions in South Dakota.
House Bill 1217 would also require women to wait 72 hours after counseling before they can go forward with the abortion, and would require the doctor to develop an analysis of "risk factors associated with abortion" for each woman—a provision that critics contend is intentionally vague and could expose providers to lawsuits. A similar measure passed in Nebraska last spring, but a federal judge threw it out it last July, arguing that it would "require medical providers to give untruthful, misleading and irrelevant information to patients" and would create "substantial, likely insurmountable, obstacles" to women who want abortions. Extending the wait time and requiring a woman to consult first with the doctor, then with the CPC, and then meet with the doctor again before she can undergo the procedure would add additional burdens for women—especially for women who work or who already have children.
The South Dakota bills reflect a broader national strategy on the part of abortion-rights opponents, says Elizabeth Nash, a public policy associate with the Guttmacher Institute, a federal reproductive health advocacy and research group. "They erect a legal barrier, another, and another," says Nash. "At what point do women say, 'I can't climb that mountain'? This is where we're getting to."
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And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:01:37
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Good ol' American south. so civilised so educated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:01:49
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Wow. Anyone who complains that the "left wing" goes roundabout to get things passed needs to realize how bs everyone is. And yet again the right wing + violence stigma gets a nod.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:07:35
Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:04:49
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Mr Meatballs wrote:Good ol' American south. so civilised so educated.
Sometimes it helps to look on a map before you post, especially if you're in another country.
http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/states/south-dakota/south-dakota-location-map.html Automatically Appended Next Post: You also have to be careful with the actual language. There are multiple states that have additional penalties for harming a fetus. They are designed to add crimes for injury to a baby when you injure the mother. This appears to go beyond that, but then again its a push piece so the veracity of it and the full law are...tenuous.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:07:57
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:10:14
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
Southampton, Hampshire, England, British Isles, Europe, Earth, Sol, Sector 001
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And here I thought this is how the US sees the world
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:10:50
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Nigel Stillman
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Frazzled wrote:Mr Meatballs wrote:Good ol' American south. so civilised so educated.
Sometimes it helps to look on a map before you post, especially if you're in another country.
Word
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:14:50
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Mysterious Techpriest
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So what stops a woman going to the next state over for an abortion
I don't get why the state needs to regulate this, make it avalible, and if you don't want to use it, don't. I don't see why they should try to force there veiws on other people.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:17:37
Subject: Re:South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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The bill, sponsored by state Rep. Phil Jensen, a committed foe of abortion rights, alters the state's legal definition of justifiable homicide by adding language stating that a homicide is permissible if committed by a person "while resisting an attempt to harm" that person's unborn child or the unborn child of that person's spouse, partner, parent, or child. If the bill passes, it could in theory allow a woman's father, mother, son, daughter, or husband to kill anyone who tried to provide that woman an abortion—even if she wanted one.
If this is actually how the bill reads, then it seems as though a woman who tried to induce a miscarriage would also be open to justifiable homicide; which is just damn strange. So strange that I think that's probably not the whole story, though stranger bills have certainly passed legislative scrutiny.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:18:51
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:17:53
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mr Meatballs wrote:Good ol' American south. so civilised so educated. Hmm, try looking at a map before posting next time. Well, unless blatantly showcasing your ignorance is what you were shooting for. If so, mission accomplished. Ah, Frazzled beat me to it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:19:59
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:19:15
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Ribon Fox wrote:And here I thought this is how the US sees the world

Wait, thats not accurate?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:20:35
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Fixture of Dakka
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FM Ninja 048 wrote:So what stops a woman going to the next state over for an abortion
I don't get why the state needs to regulate this, make it avalible, and if you don't want to use it, don't. I don't see why they should try to force there veiws on other people.
Some people believe that if there is "immorality" in the legal system that it will have negative supernatural impact. Basically anything bad that happens will get blamed on the boogey man because gays/abortion/pre-marital sex/drinking/drugs/a non-christian president. It's really rather annoying. When confronted about it, they sidestep what they actually believe, which should tell them how ridiculous it all really is.
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Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:20:53
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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FM Ninja 048 wrote:So what stops a woman going to the next state over for an abortion
A long drive maybe, or if caught in a time warp Red Cloud, but then you have bigger things to worry about.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:23:35
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Committed Chaos Cult Marine
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The south part of their name is misleading to an outsider, as most states were split into "south" during the War called "Belligerent Unionist Lincon Lovers Starting Harm Inside Tennessee." Or Bull *&^%. The fact that it has "South" and is an over the top "red" state, is a sad random happenstance. Automatically Appended Next Post: The south part of their name is misleading to an outsider, as most states were split into "south" during the War called "Belligerent Unionist Lincon Lovers Starting Harm Inside Tennessee." Or Bull *&^%. The fact that it has "South" and is an over the top "red" state, is a sad random happenstance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:23:48
And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:25:02
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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OK sorry about the south thing.
But we can all agree that this is the stupidest law ever passed
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:25:02
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:FM Ninja 048 wrote:So what stops a woman going to the next state over for an abortion
I don't get why the state needs to regulate this, make it avalible, and if you don't want to use it, don't. I don't see why they should try to force there veiws on other people.
Some people believe that if there is "immorality" in the legal system that it will have negative supernatural impact. Basically anything bad that happens will get blamed on the boogey man because gays/abortion/pre-marital sex/drinking/drugs/a non-christian president. It's really rather annoying. When confronted about it, they sidestep what they actually believe, which should tell them how ridiculous it all really is.
Way to slam billions of people there. Where's the Ayatollah of Iran to issue a fatwa for your head when we need him? LALALA!!
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:27:05
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
Southampton, Hampshire, England, British Isles, Europe, Earth, Sol, Sector 001
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Frazzled wrote:Ribon Fox wrote:And here I thought this is how the US sees the world

Wait, thats not accurate?
About as accurate as your (Hollywoods) take on history
Pro-choice here, what a woman does to her bodie is her own business, not the goverments and most definitely not the churchs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:27:18
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Fixture of Dakka
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I'm not slamming them, more the belief that because certain things occur that it makes other, completely unrelated or unverifiable things occur. If enough people say it then the mob forms and people start to assume it's true.
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Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:28:06
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Mr Meatballs wrote:OK sorry about the south thing.
But we can all agree that this is the stupidest law ever passed
It hasn't been passed yet. . . . .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:29:37
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Some people believe that if there is "immorality" in the legal system that it will have negative supernatural impact.
People with a Pro-Life agenda are not solely concerned about supernatural impacts (if at all) but also (or rather) legal, social, and even economic impacts. MotherJones makes a strong case against this law (wait, this is a news article?) but please don't pretend that people who disagree with you have no good reasons to do so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:39:53
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Fixture of Dakka
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Manchu wrote:Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Some people believe that if there is "immorality" in the legal system that it will have negative supernatural impact.
People with a Pro-Life agenda are not solely concerned about supernatural impacts (if at all) but also (or rather) legal, social, and even economic impacts. MotherJones makes a strong case against this law (wait, this is a news article?) but please don't pretend that people who disagree with you have no good reasons to do so.
Please quote where I said all people with a pro-life agenda believe that or that no other reasons (even legitimate ones) exist. I was merely trying to answer why some people "try to force their views" as the other poster asked. For the record, my mother is head of the board for an organization full of people with the belief I described so they do exist.
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Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:40:55
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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rubiksnoob wrote:Mr Meatballs wrote:OK sorry about the south thing.
But we can all agree that this is the stupidest law ever passed
It hasn't been passed yet. . . . .
Then there is only one thing to do....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:41:47
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Kid_Kyoto
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Ribon Fox wrote:Frazzled wrote:Ribon Fox wrote:And here I thought this is how the US sees the world

Wait, thats not accurate?
About as accurate as your (Hollywoods) take on history
Pro-choice here, what a woman does to her bodie is her own business, not the goverments and most definitely not the churchs.
You think Hollywood is silly, you should see our textbooks!
Seriously though, if you don't legislate morality, the next thing you know, people will be acting on their base desires and might, you know, be content! Though alternative means not officially sanctioned by the church! GASP!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:43:07
Subject: Re:South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Since 1993, eight doctors have been assassinated at the hands of anti-abortion extremists, and another 17 have been the victims of murder attempts. Some of the perpetrators of those crimes have tried to use the justifiable homicide defense at their trials.
Bloody hell!
Does this bill actually stand a snowball's chance then? Because that's terrifying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:45:18
Subject: Re:South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Kid_Kyoto
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Wait... I just had a thought. So then, if it's legal to murder a doctor preparing to perform an abortion, because you're saving a life, would it be legal to murder an abortion doctor murderer because you're saving the doctor's life? Do you have to save the fetus at the same time? Can you murder both of them (the doctor and the hypothetical murderer) at the same time and it be justified?
I'm pretty sure that, through recursion, I can use this to justify killing all life (in South Dakota).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:47:16
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:46:27
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Fixture of Dakka
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:47:11
Worship me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:49:10
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Have you just declared Exterminatus on South Dakota?!?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:54:18
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Have you just declared Exterminatus on South Dakota?!?
I just did.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:57:32
Subject: Re:South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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daedalus wrote:Wait... I just had a thought. So then, if it's legal to murder a doctor preparing to perform an abortion, because you're saving a life, would it be legal to murder an abortion doctor murderer because you're saving the doctor's life? (in South Dakota).
You can already do that most likely. The rule for self defense usually extends to those within physical range.
For example. Due to his insults certain clerics issue a fatwa against Cannerus. Frazzled, passing by to pick up a few metric tons of Dachshund Chow ( TM), comes across certain persons attempting to instigate a manmade disaster upon Cannerus. Under many jurisidictions, Frazzled can unleash the full power of untamed weiner dogs to prevent Cannerus from being harmed in a lethal manner.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:57:55
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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Kid_Kyoto
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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Have you just declared Exterminatus on South Dakota?!?
They did it to themselves. I just stamp the piece of paper.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/15 16:58:06
Subject: South Dakota moves to llegalize murdering Abortion doctors.
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[MOD]
Solahma
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Please quote where I said all people with a pro-life agenda believe that or that no other reasons (even legitimate ones) exist. I was merely trying to answer why some people "try to force their views" as the other poster asked. For the record, my mother is head of the board for an organization full of people with the belief I described so they do exist.
Okay, I see the technical point there. But let me address it with a hypothetical: Person A asks "why do so many people like the Avatar movie" and Person B responds "some people believe they are actually Na'vi from Pandora trapped in human bodies." Undoubtedly, some tiny amount of people do like Avatar for that very reason. Does it explain in any way how the movie grossed almost three billion dollars? Not even remotely. The technical veracity of Person B's response does not make it any less misleading. Similarly, your response in this case is misleading. It's a piece of rhetoric whereby you associate a policy that you believe is totally unreasonable with a belief system that your audience will find totally unreasonable so as to confirm in the audience that the policy is unreasonable. It's exactly like saying Avatar is bad movie because some people like it based on their beliefs of being Na'vi trapped in human bodies. Automatically Appended Next Post: MeanGreenStompa wrote:Does this bill actually stand a snowball's chance then? Because that's terrifying.
Given what MotherJones has to say about the political willpower of SD representatives regarding abortion, I'd say yes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/15 16:59:25
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