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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 11:05:09
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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So, if a vehicle has multiple 'one-shot' weapons (Razorwing Jetfighter, I'm looking at you), is it allowed to fire them all when moving at cruising speed (as per the Aerial Assault special rule) or remaining stationary, or can it only fire one of those 'one-shot' weapons per turn? I'm not seeing anything to stop me from firing all four of my monoscythes in one turn...
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Slaneesh may seem fun now, but when you find yourself in bed with a he-goat and several implements of pain, you'll know you've gone too far. -Emperor's Faithful
"Oh, Brother Asmodai! Yes, spank me! I've been heretical!"
"Feel the Emperor's judgement, Azrael!"
"Oooh, yes! Purge me! Purge me!" -Cheese Elemental
'In the eye of Terror, it's still the '80's. And that's a good thing.' -Necroagogo |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 11:37:55
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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IT can fire all missiles in 1 turn. Not sure why you'd want to as they'd all have to be at the same target (allong with everything else in your arsenal) but yes you can.
Also RaW the One-Shoty rule does nothing so you can keep firing all 4 every turn if you're playing by RaW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 11:38:15
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Shelegelah wrote:I'm not seeing anything to stop me from firing all four of my monoscythes in one turn...
That could be because nothing stops you, as long as you can otherwise fire weapons of that Strength value and type. Just remember that you can't shoot them at different targets so it better be something you really want dead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:02:47
Subject: Re:Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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Thanks for the replies. Not sure about the specifics of the RaW argument that makes 'one-shot' meaningless, though.
And yeah, the odds of this coming in handy are maybe a bit limited, but I could see it being useful in an emergency in which I just have no other options, particularly against a horde-happy ork player in my group. Nothing says 'no' to a single large blob like 2-4 large blast templates from a single vehicle.
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Slaneesh may seem fun now, but when you find yourself in bed with a he-goat and several implements of pain, you'll know you've gone too far. -Emperor's Faithful
"Oh, Brother Asmodai! Yes, spank me! I've been heretical!"
"Feel the Emperor's judgement, Azrael!"
"Oooh, yes! Purge me! Purge me!" -Cheese Elemental
'In the eye of Terror, it's still the '80's. And that's a good thing.' -Necroagogo |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:07:07
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Thanks for the replies. Not sure about the specifics of the RaW argument that makes 'one-shot' meaningless, though.
Well what does the one-shot rule do by RaW? Where is it defined? (i.e. it does nothing because it isn't defined anywhere, is it 1 shot a game, 1 shot a game turn or 1 shot a player turn it never defines itself so it does nothing).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:13:30
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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You have weapon it's 'one-shot'. With mono-scythe missile you have 4, 1 shot weapons. Not 1, weapon with 4 shots.
On the RAW, 'one-shot' is only mentioned twice, Pgs 16 and 58. Neither defines 'one-shot' but due to the clear definitions of what a 'shot' is and the supporting text, it one would have to wilfully misunderstand what's written.
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:34:09
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Fling - please define "the", referring only to the BRB and supporting codexes (to be nice here)
Oh, wait, you cant. Because the game isnt inclusive. "One shot" has a perfectly understandable meaning in English, especially when you consider context, so barring any internal definition that is what you would use.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:37:24
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Because the game isnt inclusive. "One shot" has a perfectly understandable meaning in English, especially when you consider context, so barring any internal definition that is what you would use.
Yes it does you get to shoot it once what ever? Per game turn, per player turn? Per game?
It isn't defined and doesn't have a clear enough meaning in english. It is clear what the intent is but it is clear what the intent of saying Shrike can infiltrate with his unit meant doesn't mean that the RaW impact of that rule immediately follows....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:45:31
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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FlingitNow wrote:Well what does the one-shot rule do by RaW?
With nothing in the rules saying otherwise, 'one shot' would mean 'one shot'...
You would need a rule that specifically allows that one shot per turn in order for it to mean one shot per turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:46:44
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Per player turn: we already have a mechanism for that, so context (gee, amazing thing) tells you the answer to that.
Per game turn: see above, and in addition note no permission to fire in opponents turn
Per game: yep, this would be the one.
It has a VERY clear meaning in English, VERY clear contextual support. There are enough holes in GWs rule - this isnt one of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:47:15
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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You would need a rule that specifically allows that one shot per turn in order for it to mean one shot per turn.
Well the shooting rules allow weapons to shoot once per turn and you need a more specific rule to override that permission to stop you. A rule entitled "one shot" with no further explaination is in no way more specific than the general shooting rules...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 12:47:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:49:22
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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@FlingitNow
Come on, common sense on buddy.
If your interpretation was correct, then a storm raven could fire:
A twin linked lascannon (S9)
A twin linked multi-melta (S8 Melta)
4 blood strike missiles (S8 Ap1)
EVERY turn. Don't you think thats too much firepower on one vehicle?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:52:12
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Come on, common sense on buddy.
Common sense has nothing to do with RaW. PLus the Stormraven would have the assault cannon a far far far better option than the Lascannon and it could also have hurrican bolters.
Haven't got the BA Codex so don't know how their one shot rule is worded (or indeed if it is worded) so I don't know whether they'd be able to do it too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:54:03
Subject: Re:Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Proud Phantom Titan
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rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If a vehicle has a weapon with a limited amount of
shots, and it has none left, for example a hunter-killer
missile that has already been fired, does it count as a
weapon that can be destroyed by a Damaged - Weapon
Destroyed roll on the Vehicle Damage table? (p61)
A: No. Once a weapon cannot possibly fire again during
the battle it is effectively destroyed as far as Damaged -
Weapon Destroyed results on the Vehicle Damage table
are concerned.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 12:58:27
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Fling - "one shot" is perfectly covered inthe rules and even the FAQ. I'd suggest you stop now....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:01:02
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Fling - "one shot" is perfectly covered inthe rules and even the FAQ. I'd suggest you stop now....
Where? Show me in the DE codex or FaQ or the BRB or FAQ where it states 1 shot means one shot per game. If it was so covered why can't you post that?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:11:30
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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Because its painfully obvious what the rule means.
Does the rulebook define what an inch is? So how do we know how far to move? Because an inch is something we recognise as a generic term.
Does the rulebook define what a tape measure is? So how do we know what to use? Because a tape measure is something we recognise as a generic term.
Does the rulebook define what a tableis? So how do we know where to play our games? Because a table is something we recognise as a generic term.
See where im going with this?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:14:50
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Because its painfully obvious what the rule means.
Does the rulebook define what an inch is? So how do we know how far to move? Because an inch is something we recognise as a generic term.
Does the rulebook define what a tape measure is? So how do we know what to use? Because a tape measure is something we recognise as a generic term.
Does the rulebook define what a tableis? So how do we know where to play our games? Because a table is something we recognise as a generic term.
See where im going with this?
All those have defined English meanings. The One-shot rule doesn't, whilst it most likely means 1 shot per game it could easily mean 1 shot per turn or 1 shot per player turn (i.e. saying you could even fire it in your opponents turn). As written we just don't know so it doesn't override any of the existing rules for shooting as it is not specific in any way.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:17:45
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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Haven't you ever heard of a One-Hit wonder? It's the same sort of deal here dude!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:22:13
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:
You would need a rule that specifically allows that one shot per turn in order for it to mean one shot per turn.
Well the shooting rules allow weapons to shoot once per turn and you need a more specific rule to override that permission to stop you. A rule entitled "one shot" with no further explaination is in no way more specific than the general shooting rules...
Can you define a 'shot' from the BRB I'm fairly certain one can. Now explain to me why you are taking a second one from your mono-scythe missile? Please?
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"I already told you son, that milk isn't for developing bones. It's for developing character." - C&H |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:22:40
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
Athens, Greece
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Well I think that apart from the cheese hunting, once per game is the widely accepted way to play this right? Would you allow an opposing BA player to shoot 4 Bloodstrike Missiles at you every turn?
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"Treat them with honour. my Brothers. Not because they will bring us victory this day.
but because their fate will one day be ours." - Astorath the Grim. Blood Angels High Chaplain |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 13:25:12
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot
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Well yes - if he inflicts a weapon destroyed result on my Monolith, ill gladly deduct -1 shots for a gain of 1 shot per turn.
RAW oversights just break the game, this is just another example.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 16:41:39
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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Well the Blood Angels rules define one shot.
P.38 under the Bloodstrike missile entry "Each missile can only be fired once per game."
they are 'Heavy 1, One Shot'
Emphasis mine.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 17:26:45
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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The Tau Codex says the same thing.
I guess if the DE doesn't say that then you may only ever fire it once. EVER. If you want to fire it again you will have to go and buy a new model.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 18:17:39
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Been Around the Block
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VoxDei wrote:
I guess if the DE doesn't say that then you may only ever fire it once. EVER. If you want to fire it again you will have to go and buy a new model.
Winner
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 18:28:36
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Is anyone else tired of the endless nonsensical RAW wrangles that contradict the blatantly obvious intent of the rules?
I know I am. I play Warhammer to have fun, not to get into courtroom cross-examination. I do enough of that at work...
One shot means you get one shot per game. Sure, you can 'logically *cough* argue it otherwise, but that's what it means.
'Common sense has nothing to do with RaW'
Which is why RAW is a crock. Rules are fine, and i'll play by them ina framework of common consensus with other players in the same rules system, but picking apart the exact wording to fine loopholes and arguable point in order to feel smug about it is just annoying. This goes double when the argument phase is brought to a Tournament.
You can always tell a RAW-Fanatic when you're drawn against them, as they have not one, nor two but several rulebooks stuffed with bookmarks so that they can lay them out all at the same time to argue their spurious point.
Get over RAW, and play the game
Settle any rules obscurity with a rolled dice and keep playing the game
Argue exact rules interpretation afterwards over beer
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The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 18:31:03
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Focused Fire Warrior
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That's why we are arguing over RAW on a web based forum  .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 18:38:19
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Which is fine, as long as the RAW argument doesn't go as far counterintuitive as this does
It's the Real Life ones that bug me most
That said people do check out You Make Da Call to find out how to actually play the rule situation in a game, not just to see the RAW argument
Sometimes I've found out some really useful info on here that has helped me a lot, other times it's hard to get a straight answer on how to actually play the situation for all the RAW flying around
'The Tau Codex says the same thing.
I guess if the DE doesn't say that then you may only ever fire it once. EVER. If you want to fire it again you will have to go and buy a new model. '
Heh, Nice! I like that
*edited once for compliments *
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 18:40:17
The Viletide: Daemons of Nurgle/Deathguard: 7400 pts
Disclples of the Dragon - Ad Mech - about 2000 pts
GSC - about 2000 Pts
Rhulic Mercs - um...many...
Circle Oroboros - 300 Pts or so
Menoth - 300+ pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 18:47:34
Subject: Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:Because its painfully obvious what the rule means.
Does the rulebook define what an inch is? So how do we know how far to move? Because an inch is something we recognise as a generic term.
Does the rulebook define what a tape measure is? So how do we know what to use? Because a tape measure is something we recognise as a generic term.
Does the rulebook define what a tableis? So how do we know where to play our games? Because a table is something we recognise as a generic term.
See where im going with this?
All those have defined English meanings. The One-shot rule doesn't, whilst it most likely means 1 shot per game it could easily mean 1 shot per turn or 1 shot per player turn (i.e. saying you could even fire it in your opponents turn). As written we just don't know so it doesn't override any of the existing rules for shooting as it is not specific in any way.
Actually, since it does not specify, we always assumed it means one shot per second. Real-time. Also many times in the book it says things like "move YOUR units" which clearly means that if you are playing with borrowed figures, they are not allowed a move. Take your meds.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 18:48:36
What would Yeenoghu do? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/02/16 18:51:21
Subject: Re:Vehicle Shooting with One-Shot Weapons?
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Napoleonics Obsesser
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Shelegelah wrote:Thanks for the replies. Not sure about the specifics of the RaW argument that makes 'one-shot' meaningless, though.
And yeah, the odds of this coming in handy are maybe a bit limited, but I could see it being useful in an emergency in which I just have no other options, particularly against a horde-happy ork player in my group. Nothing says 'no' to a single large blob like 2-4 large blast templates from a single vehicle.
I could see an advantage to shooting off two necrotoxins in Apoc or something. Maybe against a really big horde of genestealers (which would be really rare  )
I suppose you can!
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If only ZUN!bar were here... |
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