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I've only just started playing WH40k against a mate. So far we've played 5 or 6 games, with our roughly 500pt armies.
Everytime i've been given an absolute whopping and I'm getting more than fed up with it.

His basic tactics are fly his Demon Prince at me, whilst a rhino full of noise marines follows, his second noise marine squad sits back and let's me have it heavy style, with sonic blasters and some kind of blast weapon.

If he can he'll lash of submission my GUs into a flame tamplate shape and Doom siren them (last time that took out 8 Gus). Then his DP will get nice and busy nom noming my units. (Last game it I managed to finally kill the DP, but it took my Warlock squad (seer council?), SS squad and jet bikes to do it.)

ATM I have 1 GU squad with SL, 1 SS squad w Claw, 1 warlock squad and 1 Farseer. (I've just stuck the jet bikes on ebay).

My primary concern is taking out the DP.

I was thinking of converting the GUs into Rangers/Pathfinders and replacing the SS with either Shees or Dragons.

Any help would be really appreciated.

Lash is a very scary ability. But, you should be able to overcome it.

First off, make sure your Farseer has Runes of Warding. Giving him Doom is a good way to help wound the Prince.

Second off, Scorpions are not ideal against MEQ. Banshees do much better, but they will struggle vs T5, even with Doom.

Perhaps you could try fighting fire with fire. May I suggest The Avatar of Khaine! He's got better WS, better T, and a better Invul Save. He should be able to handle a Daemon Prince pretty easily. This is even more true if you can keep Doom on the Prince and/or Fortune on the Avatar.

Can you post your exact army list, so I can give some more detailed critiques?

Give up DPs are assault and shooting monsters, and nothing short of an avatar or a wraithlord can really kill him. Try shooting him to death instead

My current List, is the models I listed above.
As I say i've not been playing long, so haven't really developed a list as such.

I should probably aim for a 1500 pt army or something like that.

My mate told me his army would be really good at taking down an Avatar, which is why i haven't considered it.

Hangfire wrote:My current List, is the models I listed above.

Yeah, but what exactly are you running?

Farseer with Spear or Witchblade? Runes? Guide? Doom? Fortune?
How many Warlocks? What powers do they have? How many Spears vs Witchblades?
etc

Hangfire wrote:My mate told me his army would be really good at taking down an Avatar, which is why i haven't considered it.

If you keep Fortune up on the Avatar, he's incredibly scary.

His big weakness is that he's slow. So, don't run him if you toss everyone in a WS. But, if you're on foot, he's adds a serious threat to your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, you may want to double-check your friend's math.

From the info I've gathered, he's running at a minimum.

Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Slaanesh, Lash: 155pts
Rhino: 35pts
5 Noise Marines, Noise Champion, Doom Siren: 130pts
5 Noise Marines, 4 Sonic Blaster, Blastmaster: 160pts

Total: 480pts

So, that only leaves him enough room to take 1 Noise Marine more than the minimum (most likely in the squad in the Rhino, since he doesn't have the points to give it a sonic blaster)

Vs the Avatar (with Fortune), if he fires that squad of Sonic Blasters and Blastmaster:
Sonic Blasters x4 (Heavy mode): 12 shots, 8 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 failed saves, 0.15 failed re-rolled saves
Blastmaster (Single Frequency): 1 shot, 0.61 hits (1/3 direct hit, scatter needs to be 2" or less, so 41.7% chance), 0.51 wounds, 0.25 failed saves, 0.13 failed re-rolled saves

So, he's only putting 0.28 wounds on your Avatar per turn. He's greatly overestimating his firepower vs a T6 3+ re-rollable save.

Okay, here's my revised list (using my current models)
We're running 600point armies

Farseer with Doom and Guide = 145pts
Warlocks x3 - 1 with singing spear and Enhance, 1 with destructor = 103pts
8 Rangers = 152pts
3 Jetbikes - 1 with SC = 76pts
6 Scorpions - 1 is Exarch with claw = 123pts

Total 599pts

It's not bad... but that farseer desperately needs runes of warding. Very useful for anti-lash purposes. Also, drop guide in favour of fortune. A fortuned seer councli charging a doomed daemon prince should be able to deal the finishing blow; particularly if you soften him up with shooting from the rangers first. The scorpions also need shadowstrike; outlfank is too good to miss. To afford this, maybe drop the jetbikes? But then you only have one troop...

2x 5 rangers would be preferable.

Sounds like a plan, I'll try that load out next time I play.

Thank you for your help.

Grakmar wrote:
Also, you may want to double-check your friend's math.

Vs the Avatar (with Fortune), if he fires that squad of Sonic Blasters and Blastmaster:
Sonic Blasters x4 (Heavy mode): 12 shots, 8 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 failed saves, 0.15 failed re-rolled saves
Blastmaster (Single Frequency): 1 shot, 0.61 hits (1/3 direct hit, scatter needs to be 2" or less, so 41.7% chance), 0.51 wounds, 0.25 failed saves, 0.13 failed re-rolled saves

So, he's only putting 0.28 wounds on your Avatar per turn. He's greatly overestimating his firepower vs a T6 3+ re-rollable save.

As the chaos player just to add clarity - From what i've read (please note neither of us are experianced players so its just theory craft) best way of getting rid of the Avatar is lots and lots of shots rather than a few BIG shots.

Something that my noise marines are fairly capable of thankfully,

600 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster

HQ: Daemon Prince (1#, 155 pts)
1 Daemon Prince, 155 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 32 & 92); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Wings; Mark of Slaanesh; Close Combat Weapon; Eternal Warrior; Fearless; Psyker; Lash of Submission x1)

Troops: Noise Marines (7#, 230 pts)
5 Noise Marines, 230 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 39 & 97); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Mark of Slaanesh; Bolt Pistol x5; Close Combat Weapon x5; Sonic Blaster x5; Fearless)
1 Noise Champion ((C:CSM, pp. 39 & 97); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Mark of Slaanesh; Bolt Pistol; Doom Siren; Sonic Blaster; Power Weapon; Fearless)
1 Rhino ((C:CSM, pp. 42 & 96); Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Transport Capacity: 10 models; Access Points: 3; Fire Points: 1; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Twin Linked Bolter; Repair)

Troops: Noise Marines (6#, 215 pts)
5 Noise Marines, 215 pts ((C:CSM, pp. 39 & 97); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Mark of Slaanesh; Bolt Pistol x5; Close Combat Weapon x5; Sonic Blaster x4; Blastmaster; Fearless)
1 Noise Champion ((C:CSM, pp. 39 & 97); Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Mark of Slaanesh; Bolt Pistol; Sonic Blaster; Power Weapon; Fearless)

Validation Report:
1. Chaos Legions: Chaos Marines; c-1. File Version: 1.15 For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Composition Report:
HQ: 1 (1 - 2)
Elite: 0 (0 - 3)
Troops: 2 (2 - 6)
Fast: 0 (0 - 3)
Heavy: 0 (0 - 3)

Total Roster Cost: 600

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

--

So ya, 600 points on the dot which hopefully justifies my maths

Unfortunately I do think the biggest problem is just how whiffy guardians are - We're pretty good at discussing things between ourselves as we use our games mostly to learn what we should/shouldnt be doing and to speed up our gameplay for when we're brave enough to hit the FLGS.

With rangers instead of guardians i imagine it'd be a significantly different match as there much more likely to do a lot of damage, let alone how hard pathfinders are to budge!

Cheers for the help, looking forward to my next game Hangfire! Though i may regret that after you roll a vast amount of rending shots

I'm curious; is there much terrain on the table? You could certainly do some serious damage with Pathfinders camping it out in some forest or something similar, and Rhinos may have some issues if there's too much rubble around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, from what I've seen (I don't play Eldar, just pay attention to those around me), Dire Avengers are preferable to Guardians. With their Exarch power, you may be able to unload enough shurikens into the Prince to just whittle him down.

I love guardians and they work well for me. Ite best to run 2-3 units of them as just 1 heavy weapon isn't good enough with their BS. 12 scatter lasers can put some hurt on that rhino and prince. It's cheap too. Don't bother to close and use their catapults because you'll just get charged and killed. Move every turn and shoot the heavy only and you should be able to soften the DP enough to get the job done.

I also like rangers in your list. They're solid, but keep them away from assault and flamers. And I have to second the Runes of Warding. The prince will fail half of his casts and will take perils very often. Auto wound and reroll successful invulnerable saves. Very nice

Alot of these suggestions (like a fortuned Avatar) need a larger list to work properly.
Eldar really don't work in low points in my experiance and i've only found 2 lists i can rely on to do well most of the time.

Avatar (155)
Wraithlord - shurican cannon, sword (110)
Wraithlord - shurican cannon, sword (110)
Wraithlord - shurican cannon (100)
5 Dire avengers (60)
5 Dire avengers (60)

595

Wraithsight will slow you down, but the prince can only lash one of your MC per turn, the WL will be very hard to take down. Most of the sonic weapons will wound him on 6's, the daemon prince wounds him on 6's. And you have 3. Charge them forwards and use the Avatar to defend your DA units on objectives. Keep the DA out of LOS.

Farsser, warding, guide (95)
Dark reapers - exarch, tempest launcher, crackshot (147)
3 bikes (66)
3 bikes,(66)
Night spinner (115)
wriathlord, sword, shurican cannon (110)

599

A guided reaper exarch with a tempest launcher and crackshot WILL kill marines on foot.
- Indirect fire
- ignoring marine armour saves
- ignoring cover saves
- re-rolling to wound
- re-rolling to hit
- 2 blast templates per turn

The night spinner can indirect fire also, and is twin linked, its main strength is slowing units down.
The Seers runes will help against Lash.
The bikes can hide, jump out to fire off some catapults and then jump away, or simply hide unitl turn 5 to grab an objective with a turbo boost move.
The wraithlord is there to protect the reapers, as mentioned earlier hes too much for a DP in combat, he wounds you on 6's, you wound him on 2's.
His cannon along with the night spinner withh also help with taking out the rhino, if your concerned about only having 4 S6 shots to take it out then drop the spinner, swap a unit of bikes for 5 DA and take 2 scatter laser walkers, a guided unit of those should bring down a rhino easily, and bring down a DP too.

dnanoodle wrote:Move every turn and shoot the heavy only

Without the book handy, I can't check.
But, if it's Heavy, can it shoot if anyone in the squad moves?

Skinnereal wrote:

dnanoodle wrote:Move every turn and shoot the heavy only

Without the book handy, I can't check.
But, if it's Heavy, can it shoot if anyone in the squad moves?

The guardian grav platforms can fire heavy heavy weapons on the move.

So i think you need something new because none of what of what you have will win and will get destroyed

rovian wrote:So i think you need something new because none of what of what you have will win and will get destroyed

Well, that was blatant. How about "Dude, you should rework your list a bit?" Doesn't that feel better?

Eldar Guy: Get the Avatar. He is really worth every last penny and point. He will smash that puny DP into the ground in moments. Sadly, I speak from experience... Me and my friend had a stats battle. I played the DP and I was floored.

Avatar is definately able to fight my DP ...

But, is he immune to psychic powers? As if not without the runes of warding i'll be able to lash him away?

Just thinking that from my point of view I'd either focus him down (Remember we've only got 600 points currently and he's expensive) or just lash him and ignore him for the battle.

I feel that Hangs biggist weakness is my armour, Dire Avengers / Howling banshees / Rangers will make that much less of a issue - from our games it was all about me being able to weather all the fire from his army with hardly any damage yet on my return fire the eldar drop like flies?

The 3 wraithlord combination looks like i couldnt even scratch them!

Incurus wrote:Avatar is definately able to fight my DP ...

But, is he immune to psychic powers? As if not without the runes of warding i'll be able to lash him away?

Just thinking that from my point of view I'd either focus him down (Remember we've only got 600 points currently and he's expensive) or just lash him and ignore him for the battle.

I feel that Hangs biggist weakness is my armour, Dire Avengers / Howling banshees / Rangers will make that much less of a issue - from our games it was all about me being able to weather all the fire from his army with hardly any damage yet on my return fire the eldar drop like flies?

The 3 wraithlord combination looks like i couldnt even scratch them!

He's not immune, but if your lashing the avatar every turn your not lashing anything else at least.
As for expensive, i find him very cheap at 155! I regulary run Falcons that cost more...

And i agree, Eldar cannot stand up to return fire. Which is partly why mech build are so popular, the transports are expensive but some of the best vehicles in the game.
There also very fast...

And i also agree the 3 lords would cause a problem for most armies except DE with lots of poisen weapons...

If you need a mech list you could try the following...

Autarch: fusion gun (80)

5 Dire avengers (60)
Wave serpent: TL-shurican cannon (100)

5 Fire dragons (80)
Wave serpent: TL-shurican cannon (100)

3 Jetbikes: shurican cannon (76)

That right there is why I love Guardians. No one expects them to be banging on them every turn with heavy weapons, but always running off and getting away or into the defensive zone of a counter charge unit. They're not so easy to use, but they're cheap and fill a unique role in the codex.

Gahhhhhh, Incurus I thought you'd stopped trawling these forums, now my secret magic army lists will come as no surprise!

This made for some great reading and a genuine thank you to those who have contributed.

Last game I deplyed my GU squad in a rocky outcrop (Nicely modelled by my good self with the help of some polystyrene). To have moved them would have meant moving them out of cover.

I can rarely get a shot off at the DP, as he flys 18'' and then assaults 6'' IIRC and naturally once he's in CC I can't shoot him.

My only doubts about using the rangers is the fact the long rifle counts as a heavy weapon, so they can't move and fire.

Ah well, the conversion process has begun, so we shall see if I fair better next game....until then.

Its move 12, assault 6 and lash 2d6 for the DP.

Move 12 - Lash enemy close - Assault into them - I normally only get one lash off per game so far dissapointingly.

Hang, I dont think you'll suffer much from not being able to move and fire - just place them in cover and i'll only be able to get them with template weapons (just keep my doom siren away) as they'll be what, a 2+ cover save if pathfinders?

In reply to the avatar being cheap at 155 - With only 600 points its a fair old whack! Meaning less troops - Giving me the ability to focus on his troop choices in a objective game and removing his ability to score?

That said, in a kill points game a huge monster like that is worth his weight in (molten) gold i imagine?

Fire dragons are a good way to kill a demon prince, but they would need transport and they don't quite kill him themselves so need some backup.

Dayve110's list is pretty much the fire dragon having 500 point mech list.

Reserve/hide/keep out of range the bikes and lash has nothing to do. Shoot at the rhinos trying to suppress them until the demon prince gets close enough and out of cover then fire dragon's & everything else kill it (probably, heh). Then try to grind down the marines. You can probably win killpoints by killing the rhinos then hiding (may be forced to kill the prince). You would also have a good shot at securing one objective and contesting 1-2 to win objectives.

Without going mech I think it is going to be really tough to beat CSM at that point level, however. His troops are reasonably good and yours are pretty bad, you are both forced to put a lot of your lists into them. His HQ is awesome and at 500 points yours aren't. However fully mech he is going to have a really hard time killing you.

cosmid wrote:Dayve110's list is pretty much the fire dragon having 500 point mech list

O yea... i made it 500, not 600... in that case...

Autarch: fusion gun (80)

5 Fire dragons (80)
Wave serpent: TL-shurican cannon (100)

5 Fire dragons (80)
Wave serpent: TL-shurican cannon (100)

3 Jetbikes: shurican cannon (76)

3 Jetbikes: shurican cannon (76)

592.

I love fire dragons, but two units is what i normally take in 1500 ^.^ but then again... i don't take a DP in less than that either. So spam away!

@dayve, looks interesting, but once he's closed the distance and entered cc won't i be toast? mmmmm toast

bikes will get demolished by that csm list- take war walkers with scatter lasers - Farseer w/ doom- doom the DPs from inside a wave serpent and watch them fall like chumps

fire dragons are usually suicide units unless extremely well supported- having them as your only troop choice is a mistake IMO

Yep. War Walkers versus Chaos are horrendously effective. Dual Scatterlasers is 6x S6 shots per model. That's 18 per squad of 3, and if you Guide them you're hitting 13-14 times. If you Doom the target as well, you put 12 wounds on the Daemon Prince or 11 wounds on the Marines--that's enough to kill the DP and horrendously beat down the Noisies.

Add Runes of Warding and the chaos DP is going to be real reluctant about casting Lash. Remember that not only does he fail to cast at results above 10, but there's even chances that he takes Perils, which is a wound unless he makes his 5++ twice in a row. Not good.

At low points, I'd take a Farseer for psychic defense and boosts, a couple Guardian squads for heavy weapons to de-mech the noisies, and then I'd spend every other point cramming in as many War Walkers as I could. He can't lash them, he can't out-shoot them, and with only one Rhino he doesn't have enough bodies to absorb the damage.

Eldar actually have somewhat of an advantage against armies like chaos and space marines in low point games. Its not an obvious advantage, but it is significant, here is a brief lowdown

+ Cheap HQ. We can grab a farseer with a great psychic power and the best psychic defense in the game for under 100 points. Your opponent will be stuck paying well over 100 points to fill this slot (155 for the lash prince who gets severley hindered by Runes of Warding- 50% chance of fail, ~37% chance of perils = scared psycher!)

+ Cheap Troops. Storm Guardians, Dire Avengers, and Guardian Jetbikes are all very good in low point games. I would invest in a warlock biker for yours- if you plan on taking them. Our troops are far cheaper then MEQ troops are, and we can fit more goodies into our lists!

+ Cheap, and potent heavy support: WARWALKERS!!! can somebody say 6 s6 shots for 40 points? Shuri cannon walkers are amazing in low point games. They can add a lot of shooting for very few additional points... s6 spam makes transports and MCs cry. Scatter laser walkers are also a very solid choice in larger point games as well. Magnetize your War Walkers and you will get tons of use out of them.

-Our transports are very expensive :(. On the flipside they are some of the best transports in the game, and a few wave serpents are very difficult for most enemies to take down in a low point game. Combined with their mobility make mech eldar very top tier threat at low point levels.

Mech Eldar is especially the way to go against our friendly neighborhood chaos player. He uses a lash prince and nose marines... pretty much designed to shoot foot slogging lists into oblivion, and since your list is foot slogging- it explains why its so tough for you! However he can't lash units in tranports and noise marines aren't very good transport poppers either. Make him pay for his devestating anti infantry focus. Protect yourself in wave serpents, dance around him, and pick off his rhinos and DP at your leisure with heavy weapons, before closing in for the kill and forcing his Noise Marines into submission with small arms fire of your own.

(80)Farseer- Doom, Runes of Warding
(95) 10 Guardians- scatter laser
(100) Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon
(127) 10 Storm Guardians + Warlock- 2 flamers, destructor
(100) Wave Serpent- tl shuri cannon
(40) War Walker- 2x shuri cannons
(40) War Walker- 2x shuri cannons

Total: 597 points.

While something like this may *seem* tailored to beat csm, its really just standard mech eldar at low point levels. Its designed to tackle all comers, Ultimately you'll want to swap your Defenders out for Dire Avengers, but in a pinch they'll make due.

If you like the feeling of foot eldar, Avatar + 3 wraithlord lists are hilarious at low point levels as well... I'd take jetbikes for troops in that case instead of 5 man Avengers however, and just focus on keeping them alive and hopefully out of lash range.

He won't often close to CC. The demon prince will get close enough for the fire dragons + supporting fire to kill it. Mech eldar is slightly faster than the demon prince and a lot faster than the rhino's and that chaos list has two 1/9 shots at killing a wave serpent moving fast or in cover.

I play mech eldar vs chaos with a winged prince regularly and I kill the prince in most games. When I don't its usually because I lost half my tanks to defilers and obliterators turn 1 because i deployed poorly and then had a bit of bad luck making for epic failure . Now after that the games still go either way because Eldar has a bit of trouble putting out enough firepower to kill marines, plague marines, defilers and obliterators in cover, but I almost never get wrecked by the demon prince. I trade a FD squad for it and proceed.

Fire dragons aren't troops. But yea, any FD squad that shoots the prince is very likely to die. It's a good trade for the eldar player if it is one squad. I'm not sure the dual fire dragon, dual jetbike squad is the way to go. I think I would go falcon + 5DA to provide the last wound or two on the prince, a tougher scoring unit, and some more long range firepower after the prince is dead.

The jetbikes would start the game in reserve and once they show up move around 24" a turn for a 3+ coversave, sit behind total LOS blocking terrain, or stay out of range. It isn't that hard to keep one such squad alive and if your foe wants to spend his turns shooting at the jetbikes he is ignoring other units with more firepower and still the ability to contest objectives. However part of the reason I like the falcon/da better is it gives you one tough scoring unit that can hold an objective rather than two who live by guile and trickery.

You can still get unlucky and lose a tank early, fail to kill the prince, misjudge the demon prince's range, etc.


Warwalkers are a good option for killing everything in his list as well.

Damn guys, this is awesome, I hope someone else in a similar predicament finds this thread.

There's lots of advice in here, so lets narrow things down a bit. I think I could afford 1 box of mini's/tank/walker before our next game (unless we suddenly decide to play tomorrow)

But what's it going to be?

Bear in mind the transformation of Guardians to Rangers has already begun, so count the GU squad as a ranger squad now.

I'm thinking 3 x Warwalkers for the reason stated above.

From my point of view...

Noise marines are great anti-infantry and ok in assault, there not specialist like the rest of the cult troops (i.e. zerks for assault, thousand suns anti-meq etc)

I dont know the armour level of the warwalkers - But probably the only one who could scratch it is my DP, but attacking a war walker doesnt put you into assault.. so you can then shoot the snot out of him!

From memory... Sonic blaster would only get a glancing hit on a roll of a 6 for pen? so pretty indestructable

Soo yeah, the war walkers are probably going to make you nearly indestructable!

Sounds good to me - You've also convinced me on my next purchase!

Obliterators

Edit : P.S. Also it gives us the chance to play with new rules! Vehicles in squads