Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Warwalkers are super fragile, AV 10 or 11, I think. Their main benefit is the insane number of shots that they can put out, as well as their intimidating range and versatility of weapon's choice. You can pretty much kill them with any decently strong ranged weaponry, the main problem is that his war walker squadron is going to be putting out a ton of high strength shots. Deploy smart and use anything that's around strength seven or higher to kill them. Autocannons work great, as do missile launchers.
Also, I believe that they are the 'walker' type, so assaulting them would lock your DP into combat.
Slaneesh may seem fun now, but when you find yourself in bed with a he-goat and several implements of pain, you'll know you've gone too far. -Emperor's Faithful
Careful with rangers. I cannot in good faith recomend pathfinders...Ibought a box thought they'd be hot gak too- till I put them on the table, opened fire and killed maybe 1 or 2 enemy guys- with 120 points of eldar! Sniper rifles suck in this game, and rangers have aweful damage to cost.
You can shoot down a slaaneshi demon prince with a round of bladestorming dire avengers. T5 3+ is very "scratchable". Taking 240 points of units that don't kill much and are essentially lash bait will not win you games.
These days I take my guardian defenders over rangers if I need another troop choice for some reason (not very often)! The heavy weapon can actually support things, and if something wanders close to then their catapults do far more damage than long rifles!
If you want to beat a lash list, taking pathfinders is actually making it harder on yourself.
At the end of the day though- your friend isn't being very sporting- taking an hq and army specifically tailored to waste foot sloggers- against a new player who doesn't have many tanks.
I'd recomend you start buying waveserpents. They are the bread and butter of strong eldar lists at nearly every point level.
EDIT:
I'm editing this post to show you a bit of mathhammer. I know many people don't believe in math hammer, but this was post fact mathhammer. After my Pathfinders massively dissapointed me in every game I played them in running the numbers showed that my expirence wasn't due to "luck" they really just don't have enough punch for the points you pay for them. The fact that hold up like a wet paper bag to assault and anything with fire just makes them a liability in many respects. Guardian Jetbikes however... I love. About the same price with a warlock, highly mobile, and can take heavy weapons (shuri cannon, a singing spear and or a heavy flamer)
Anyway here is a straight up 120 point v 120 point comparision between 5 Rangers with the pathfinder upgrade and 10 Dire Avengers (no exarch) showing average unsaved wounds per shooting phase with and without doom support, against Marines or the Demon Prince IN THE OPEN. You'll note that the pathfinders are sourly outshone by the Dire Avengers Across the board. Once you add in an exarch and bladestrom it gets even worse, and if the marines are getting a 4+ cover save against the ap1 and rending from the pathfinders... it goes even further down hill.
for those of you anal enough to care and who actually want to check my maths and excelcraft
Spoiler:
Finders v Prince: =5*1/3*1/2*2/3+5*1/3*(1/6*2/3+1/3*1/3) Finders v CSM: =5*1/3*1/2+5*1/3*(1/3*1/3+1/6)
Doom is interesting with pathfinders. But ultimately the numbers are really convineint. Assuming you only re roll failed rolls, and that rending only matters on the non ap1 dice. You get something that looks like this 1/6+(1-1/2)*1/6 which conviniently = 1/4 A similar equation gets you non rending with re rolls that number is .5
Finders v Doomed Prince : =5*1/3*0.75*2/3+5*1/3*(0.25*2/3+0.5*1/3) Finders v Doomed CSM: =5*1/3*0.75+5*1/3*(0.25+0.5*1/3)
Dire Avengers v Prince: =20*2/3*1/3*1/3 Dire Avengers v CSM: =20*2/3*1/2*1/3 Dire Avengers v Doomed Prince : =20*2/3*(1/3+(1-1/3)*1/3)*1/3 Dire Avengers v Doomed CSM: =20*2/3*0.75*1/3
EDIT 2:
Yes Pathfinders have significantly more range than Dire Avengers, but to borrow the term from MMOs, successful Eldar builds are all about Spike damage. Most Eldar lists win by using their mobility to apply impressive amounts of force to smash through an enemy flank, then relocate to strike again. Non wraithwall eldar just lack the defense to win a slug fest against MEQ armies. Taking advantage of spike damage (Dire Avenger Exarch and bladestorm increaseing damage output by 50% is huge for that) is how Eldar lists win.
I use a small unit of bikes designed purely for dakka in my small point games and they do wonderfully 3 bikers with a shuri cannon, and a warlock with a singing spear and destructor. Cruise over to infantry and unload all 2 tl shuri pults, a cannon, and a heavy flamer into their face, or go after a tank with the spear + cannon. Tons of short range fire power, and the mobility to deliver it. The goal being to hit 1 enemy squad with 2 of mine! (usually my bikes and storm guardians in a wave serpent... soo much fire template goodness)
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2011/03/04 17:48:58
Hangfire wrote:@dayve, looks interesting, but once he's closed the distance and entered cc won't i be toast? mmmmm toast
I hardly ever take a close combat unit. If you shoot everything before they charge you your fine! Pop his rhino with S6 shooting and gang up with meltas on the marines/prince one unit at a time. If hes grouping together i'd place bets on a mechlist to outshoot an Emperors children themed force. Check here http://dayve220-40k.blogspot.com/2011/02/5-dragons-game-2.html
Bertimismaximus wrote:bikes will get demolished by that csm list- take war walkers with scatter lasers - Farseer w/ doom- doom the DPs from inside a wave serpent and watch them fall like chumps
fire dragons are usually suicide units unless extremely well supported- having them as your only troop choice is a mistake IMO
The bikes should be fine. The thing with units of 3 bikes is they take up such a small area, and can easily stay out of LOS for the entire game, if something gets close you can turbo-boosy away, behind some other cover. When not boosting the bike can JSJ with their cannon to lend a little bit of firepower to your army.
War walkers will eat a DP, but walkers are not very mobile and the DP can easily stay out sight and depending on terrain, with an 18" charge range could easily get into assault and trash the walkers without ever getting shot at by them. This is the one advantage of Vypers, similar to walkers, more expensive, but highly mobile!
Re-phrase the last bit to "Fire dragons are usually suicide units unless extremely well supported used in groups, or deployed very carefully from their wave serpent
sourclams wrote:Yep. War Walkers versus Chaos are horrendously effective. Dual Scatterlasers is 6x S6 shots per model. That's 18 per squad of 3, and if you Guide them you're hitting 13-14 times. If you Doom the target as well, you put 12 wounds on the Daemon Prince or 11 wounds on the Marines--that's enough to kill the DP and horrendously beat down the Noisies.
Scatter lasers throw out 24 shots with dual scatters, with guide and doom thats 18 hits and 17 wounds on the marines, 16 wounds on the prince.
Shurican cannons are the 18 shot weapons, and alot cheaper!
sourclams wrote:Add Runes of Warding and the chaos DP is going to be real reluctant about casting Lash. Remember that not only does he fail to cast at results above 10, but there's even chances that he takes Perils, which is a wound unless he makes his 5++ twice in a row. Not good.
Runes of Warding are an auto-buy in larger games, but if you've meched up, the DP should be long dead before you get anybody out of your flying tin cans.
Hangfire wrote:Damn guys, this is awesome, I hope someone else in a similar predicament finds this thread.
There's lots of advice in here, so lets narrow things down a bit. I think I could afford 1 box of mini's/tank/walker before our next game (unless we suddenly decide to play tomorrow)
But what's it going to be?
Bear in mind the transformation of Guardians to Rangers has already begun, so count the GU squad as a ranger squad now.
I'm thinking 3 x Warwalkers for the reason stated above.
3x warwalkers are nasty, but slow, in a small game they are easily avoided and in any size game, if they get charged they most likely arn't going to win combat. Personally I'd invest in 2 serpents before doing anything else.
"...THIS IS THE INTERWEBZ! Where people aren't about to let the lack of having the slightest idea what they are talking about slow them down one bit! ;-).....And they'll get angry at others for disagreeing." - jmurph
"Disclaimer: I am not one of those who is going to tell you that you must change your list to find success. If these are the models and the list that you want to play, then play them." - Feldmarshal Goehring
LoneLictor on thread about an ork choking the Emperor:
LoneLictor wrote: I like to imagine the Emperor kills so many Orks that he ends up half buried beneath a pile of corpses, with only his head sticking out. A lone grot stumbles across him, and starts choking him.
Then Horus comes across the lone grot, somehow managing to kill the Emperor, and punts it into space.
akaean wrote:At the end of the day though- your friend isn't being very sporting- taking an hq and army specifically tailored to waste foot sloggers- against a new player who doesn't have many tanks.
Firstly, we're both new players - Secondly I gave hang my army list well before we started collecting! I wanted a Slaanesh army, led by a Daemon Prince and Daemon Princess - Note the use of the number 6, Slaanesh's favoured number. I made my army to be fluffy, fluffy and more fluff!
I came up with the premise of my army well before playing my first game, before i even knew about duel lash lists (though, in the end thats what i'll have) I even posted a "critque my build" here and on bolter and chainsword and got almost no replies (well, in Bolter and chainsword i got told that slaanesh doesnt have a favoured number and i should never take units in 6's... missing point much!)
So yeah, I disagree with being called unsporting - Its not like my army was tuned for him and you dont have a vast amount of variety for a all slaanesh chaos army now days, I miss the days of cult lists!
Incurus Long shall be your suffering. Joyous be your pain.
I don't see a problem with the way you guys play. I feel like every Eldar player has to learn a few hard lessons in the early stages of playing the army in order to get their play style and timing worked out. I'm still learning hard lessons at the hand of SWs but feel like I've made major strides against other armies. But yeah more to the point I'm glad you're both playing what you like.
Back to the topic, I'm glad someone fixed the numbers on Scatters in this thread because it's 24 and that's a pretty mind-blowing amount of high strength shooting. With guide and doom they're insane against anything but AV12+. But as other have said they're quite fragile and can be avoided by highly mobile units if there is a lot of LOS blocking terrain.
My 40k Blog: Rollin' 2d6 Deep Rumors, Links, Analysis, Modeling, Painting, Fiction
and excelcraft 
