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NO it is not if the chimera can shout foward rather can the guys inside shout foward. Or does the chimera have to pivot for the guys to fire.

Can you draw a LOS form anywhere on the hatch foreward without it being obstructed?

So if a chimera was facing straight foward, say firing into 5 guardsmen can I fire at them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the guys inside

necronsftw wrote:So if a chimera was facing straight foward, say firing into 5 guardsmen can I fire at them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the guys inside

Get out the actual models, put them down on the table, bend down and look at what you can see from where the fire points are located. This is how you determine which of the guardsmen you can fire at.

Which part of this procedure are you finding difficult to perform?

Page 39 of Imperial Guard 5th edition codex states "Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch. In reality, several are firing from the fixed lasgun emplacements along either flank, but for simplicity we assume all shots to be taken from the hatch."

Just making it clear.

So I could have shot foward, I did not bring a TO up to this, because the guy has been playing for QUITE longer then me with guard.

Yes, since "Five models can fire from the Chimera's top hatch."

that is where you measure from for all 5 models.

Grrr, I was robbed of second place, oh well not much to do now.


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Now I feel dumb lol, cause I had to pivot my tanks allowing them to take shots on armor 10

Might the turret block the LOS? Heck, the tank itself (the hull, main body) might very well block the LOS.

Cortez667 wrote:Might the turret block the LOS? Heck, the tank itself (the hull, main body) might very well block the LOS.

Indeed it does. You generally have to pivot slightly to see around the turret.

necronsftw wrote:NO it is not if the chimera can shout foward rather can the guys inside shout foward. Or does the chimera have to pivot for the guys to fire.

Short answer, no. The big hatch on the back is the firepoint - the turret stops you shooting straight forwards. Angling the chimera slightly to the right during the movement phase clears the LoS for the passengers.

Oh alright now I understand.

The trick is in all LOS questions to pull the model out and check.

The hatch is the large one in the Rear, not the Coppola on the turret.

If you angle your turret about 45* to the right there is a clear LOS from the Front-left corner of the Hatch, extending 2mm towards the center of the Chimera; this is from the Doors, not just outer part of the hatch itself.

This is also only available when the turret is turned in this specific direction.

Okay thanks for a full explantion!

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The hatch is the large one in the Rear, not the Coppola on the turret.

Where does it say that? Technically, "hatch" isn't clearly defined at all.

^^^Agreed. I will let my opponent fire from the turret hatch with lasguns ,but special weapons are fired from the rear hatch. So he has to expose weaker armor if he want to fire more powerful guns. Advantages and disadvantages that's how it works in my book anyone else agree? (that's if you can fire special weapons from the hatch)

Broadside wrote:^^^Agreed. I will let my opponent fire from the turret hatch with lasguns ,but special weapons are fired from the rear hatch. So he has to expose weaker armor if he want to fire more powerful guns. Advantages and disadvantages that's how it works in my book anyone else agree? (that's if you can fire special weapons from the hatch)

No, its all or nothing. You can't just pick and choose how things work, at least, not in tournament games.

Broadside wrote:^^^Agreed. I will let my opponent fire from the turret hatch with lasguns ,but special weapons are fired from the rear hatch. So he has to expose weaker armor if he want to fire more powerful guns. Advantages and disadvantages that's how it works in my book anyone else agree? (that's if you can fire special weapons from the hatch)

Side and rear armor are the same on a Chimera....you are just limiting your opponents ability to fire at targets on either side of the Chimera.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The hatch is the large one in the Rear, not the Coppola on the turret.

Where does it say that? Technically, "hatch" isn't clearly defined at all.

Actually, for once, it is. On page 66, "Access Points".

"A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points
defined in its entry. A fire point is a hatch or gun slit
from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle
can fire (or use a psychic power).

"Unless specified differently in the vehicle’s entry, a
single passenger may fire out of a fire point and the
other transported models may not fire. Ranges and line
of sight are measured from the fire point itself."

BRB, p66

When I look at the turret, I see a "top hatch" that one or more people could fire out of. I am not arguing that I do this or anyone should, just that GW left this a bit undefined , should someone go RAW-Happy with it.

"When I look at the *insert name of object here* is see a *different object there*"
=\ Frownie-frown =(

But seriously, key points
"A transport vehicle may have a number of fire points defined in its entry."
"A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which"
"Access Points.... These are the doors, ramps and hatches"
Hatches are defined as access points. Unless a feature is additionally and idividually identified as a fire point it isn't.
Ie "Fire Points: Two Models may fire from the Rhinos top hatch."

That is all well and good, but nowhere is "hatch" defined. When I see the term "top hatch" in the IG Codex, that can mean any number of hatches on the top portion of a Chimera, which could include the hatch in the top of the turret.

GW assumes people use common sense, but strictly RAW, a hatch is a hatch is a hatch, including the hatch used to enter/exit a turret. In this case, that is the top-most hatch on the Chimera.

A hatch is an access point. "These are the doors, ramps and hatches that passengers use to get in and out of the vehicle." Page 66

That's how we started right?


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I just realised another way of saying this.
If it has a function it is defined in game (see fire points/hatches) if it isn't defined in the vehicles description (as a fire or access point) there is no reason or compulsion to 'define' the feature as anything - it's just that a feature.
Fire points and access points are defined, to point at something undefined and call it 'a hatch' then one is treading right in 'Modelled as intended territory".

ChrisCP wrote:A hatch is an access point. "These are the doors, ramps and hatches that passengers use to get in and out of the vehicle." Page 66

That's how we started right?

That is misleading. You are using a definition from another section to root your argument. Access Points and Fire Points are not the same thing. My Guardsmen cannot exit the Chimera via any top hatches, only the rear Access Point. However, when they shoot, they use Fire Points. These are defined in the IG Codex as the top hatch of the Chimera, which is what this argument involves. If I shoot from the turret hatch (the one on top), I have nearly 360 degree arc from the vehicle. If I use the rear hatch near the lasgun emplacements, the turret gets in the way for TLOS purposes.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:A hatch is an access point. "These are the doors, ramps and hatches that passengers use to get in and out of the vehicle." Page 66

That's how we started right?

That is misleading. You are using a definition from another section to root your argument. Access Points and Fire Points are not the same thing. My Guardsmen cannot exit the Chimera via any top hatches, only the rear Access Point. However, when they shoot, they use Fire Points. These are defined in the IG Codex as the top hatch of the Chimera, which is what this argument involves. If I shoot from the turret hatch (the one on top), I have nearly 360 degree arc from the vehicle. If I use the rear hatch near the lasgun emplacements, the turret gets in the way for TLOS purposes.

Aren't we ralking about the same thing? That's clearly defined in the rulebook and fits with my interpretation?

The one obscured by the sandbags?

Not the viewing port on this?

Or the split hatch doors on top of the turret?

em_en_oh_pee wrote:That is all well and good, but nowhere is "hatch" defined. When I see the term "top hatch" in the IG Codex, that can mean any number of hatches on the top portion of a Chimera, which could include the hatch in the top of the turret.

GW assumes people use common sense, but strictly RAW, a hatch is a hatch is a hatch, including the hatch used to enter/exit a turret. In this case, that is the top-most hatch on the Chimera.

Technically, if the hatches aren't defined, neither the hatch on the turret nor the hatch in the roof are legal embarkation/shooting points.

I'm not familiar with the Chimaera model. Is there a diagram in the book or codex to show where the hatches are?

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:
The hatch is the large one in the Rear, not the Coppola on the turret.

Where does it say that? Technically, "hatch" isn't clearly defined at all.

This page Clearly defines the Rhino's top hatch as the double bay doors(fifth image+ the blurb underneath about how the artists painted his "Top Hatch").

It is also defined as the Top Hatch, nut the cupola hatch, nor Turret hatch.

When I first started playing 40k, I assumed that the 'hatches' that Marine players were firing from were those over the driver compartment, as that's where the guy with the storm bolter was always dakka-ing from. For IG, I assumed it was much the same way.

The BRB does define the location of the hatch on the rhino, but you're still up in the air on the chimera. Geographically, the topmost hatch is the one on top of the turret. The double bay doors are also not an embarkation point, or at least no moreso than the top chimera hatch.

"An opening in the deck of a vessel or floor of a warehouse which serves as a passageway or hoistway; a hatchway; also; a cover or door, or one of the covers used in closing such an opening." The definition of a hatch as per Webster's dictionary (or at least the definition that holds regard in this matter)

So couldn't you technically use "both" of the top hatches? From the look of a Chimera, it certainly looks like that big back part is a Hatch. But then again, not being an IG player, I could be wrong on whether it is a hatch or not.

I always put it another way:

Is there any possible way 5 guys can fire out of the cupola at the same time?

Could they possibly fire out of the double bay doors?

There is your Hatch.

The SM one would be a little trickier if it wasn't already defined for us; there are 2 cupola hatches on a rhino(but then the razorback has those 2 cupolas, but the rear hatch is covered and then there are no fire points).