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OK,

This is something that I do not quite grasp so I am posting here. Lets say I have a squad of 6 marine scouts w/ snipers. I can infiltrate and set up hidden out of sight with in 12 inches of my enemy and not in their deployment zone, or I can set up with in line of sight but at least 18" away from the enemy and not in their deployment zone. So, sniper rifles are heavy weapons, which means if you move you cannot shoot. If you deploy in a building, hidden away 12" from your enemy you cannot see them and they cannot see you. So, therefore if you wanted to shoot them in your turn, you would have to move into position to shoot them correct, or if they are hidden behind terrain do they simply pop up and shoot with sniper rifles and do not count as moving?

Also, does your free move at the beginning of the game help negate this sort of gray area in the rules?

Example:

I deploy my 6 marine snipers 13" away from any enemy model in a tower. I deploy them in the building and cam counting them as hidden. In my turn, if I want to move out of hiding to shoot them from windows, access points, the roof, whatever, does that count as moving?

Crom wrote:So, therefore if you wanted to shoot them in your turn, you would have to move into position to shoot them correct, or if they are hidden behind terrain do they simply pop up and shoot with sniper rifles and do not count as moving?

They would need to move. There's no 'hidden'- you're either visible or not, and if you can't infiltrate closer than 18" when you're visible.

Crom wrote:I deploy my 6 marine snipers 13" away from any enemy model in a tower. I deploy them in the building and cam counting them as hidden. In my turn, if I want to move out of hiding to shoot them from windows, access points, the roof, whatever, does that count as moving?

If you're deploying out of sight to get close to your enemy and movein your normal turn, then you've moved and can't fire that turn.
If you're deploying out of sight to get close to your enemy and use a Scout move to get into line of sight, you'd be able to fire once your normal turn begins provided you didn't move durign that turn.

Also, please note that you've got the distances wrong.

If out of LOS you must be MORE than 12" away (so you can't get a turn one 6" melta shot or a turn one charge*).

If in LOS you must be MORE than 18" away (so you can't even get a max-range turn one melta shot**).


(*Unless Shrike is giving them Fleet)
(**Or charge even with Shrike and a 6" Run roll).

Sniper scouts really dont want to be that close to the enemy, either....

If you want "in your face" scouts, then scouts in a Storm with shotguns and a powerfist toting sarge are good for turn one smashing tanks.

well I used snipers as an example because they are heavy weapons. OK, so then my next question, does your free move allow you to be closer than 12" away that scouts get at the beginning of the game? I really wish GW would update their FAQs a bit more

No, it does not allow you to come within 12", and from memory the BRB FAQ even explicitly mentions this.

They update them at abot the right frequency. Updating them more frequently is a complete PITA as you then have to print them out again, and can be a surprise for people who dont rigorously check before each tournament.

So the BRB fantasy book counts for 40K?

Actually, it states that the scout move must still remain more than 12" away from the enemy in the BRB, so there would be no need for the FAQ to be updated, its part of the original rules.

OK, but for clarification when you guys refer to the big red book, you are referring to the 40K core rule book right?

Yes, seeing as that is the only book for Warhammer 40k non-army specific rules.


Edited to add army specific before someone mentions codices.

Gotcha, I was under the impression the BRB only referred to fantasy...

I am trying to find the FAQ or blog post where GW says that they do not retract or address older outdated rules in previous codices and that the current FAQ or current rule should override it. For example, Eldar scout sniper rifles have very much different rules than sniper rifles in the 5th edition book, so I take it the older 4th edition Eldar book rules should no longer be valid and that their sniper rifles should use the rules in the 5th edition BRB?

I think I read somewhere on GW's site that they don't go back and correct every old rule, and if the new rule set of the most current book changes a rule you need to use the most current rule over the old one. Anyone got any links on that?

The eldar long rifle still uses its own rules, as codex normally overrules BRB.

Galador wrote:The eldar long rifle still uses its own rules, as codex normally overrules BRB.

Hmm, OK, but I remember reading that if a core rule book changes the rules of an older codex you use the new rule book. So, you would still use the rules for Eldar sniper rifles versus the sniper rifle rules in the BRB?

##EDIT

Like for example it says a roll of a 6 is AP1, and really doesn't the rending rule replace that? So, then the sniper rifles do not rend from the edlar and they do not get that additional D3 for armor penetration since they are not rending?

Crom wrote:

Galador wrote:The eldar long rifle still uses its own rules, as codex normally overrules BRB.

Hmm, OK, but I remember reading that if a core rule book changes the rules of an older codex you use the new rule book. So, you would still use the rules for Eldar sniper rifles versus the sniper rifle rules in the BRB?

##EDIT

Like for example it says a roll of a 6 is AP1, and really doesn't the rending rule replace that? So, then the sniper rifles do not rend from the edlar and they do not get that additional D3 for armor penetration since they are not rending?

No, because then the Tau Cyclic Ion Blaster would also be rending under that same thought and it is not played that way (it has the same ruling in the Codex: Tau Empire stating "...a roll of 6 is AP1..."). And I would LOVE to have an Assault 5 S3 rending weapon

A roll to hit of 6 for rangers is AP1. Rending occurs on the to wound roll.

Zyllos wrote:

Crom wrote:

Galador wrote:The eldar long rifle still uses its own rules, as codex normally overrules BRB.

Hmm, OK, but I remember reading that if a core rule book changes the rules of an older codex you use the new rule book. So, you would still use the rules for Eldar sniper rifles versus the sniper rifle rules in the BRB?

##EDIT

Like for example it says a roll of a 6 is AP1, and really doesn't the rending rule replace that? So, then the sniper rifles do not rend from the edlar and they do not get that additional D3 for armor penetration since they are not rending?

No, because then the Tau Cyclic Ion Blaster would also be rending under that same thought and it is not played that way (it has the same ruling in the Codex: Tau Empire stating "...a roll of 6 is AP1..."). And I would LOVE to have an Assault 5 S3 rending weapon

The only problem with the Cyclic Ion Blaster is that nowhere in its profile does it list it as a sniper weapon, so it doesn't get the rending from being a sniper weapon. However, ranger long rifles are sniper, so they get the rending and pinning rules from their weapon type, they just increase their rending shots to AP1.

Eldar sniper rifles still rend, because it is classed as a sniper rifle in its profile, so it goes by the sniper rifle rules along with its additional rules in the codex. Basic thing that it does now is for its rending against vehicles, it counts as AP1 instead of AP2. Remember though, that just because with a Pathfinder unit the AP1 happens on a 5+, rending still only happens on a 6.

Hope that clears those two things up for you.

Crom wrote:OK, but for clarification when you guys refer to the big red book, you are referring to the 40K core rule book right?

Big Red Book is technically the fantasy one, but sometimes 40k-only players use that term for the 40k one too, since the 5th ed 40k rulebook has a red background on the cover, which makes it much more red than the near-pure-grey 4th-ed 40k book. BGB is still probably more accurate, especially relative to the WH rulebook.

Mannahnin wrote:

Crom wrote:OK, but for clarification when you guys refer to the big red book, you are referring to the 40K core rule book right?

Big Red Book is technically the fantasy one, but sometimes 40k-only players use that term for the 40k one too, since the 5th ed 40k rulebook has a red background on the cover, which makes it much more red than the near-pure-grey 4th-ed 40k book. BGB is still probably more accurate, especially relative to the WH rulebook.

Ahhh, so thats why he asked that question!! Haven't ever played fantasy, nor went to and Fantasy forums, so didn't know they used BRB also. Thanks Mannahin!

Scouts with sniper rifles who deployed/infiltrated out of sight will have to move to see an enemy (unless an enemy moved into sight). No ducking and such as mentioned.
In this scenario, you couldn't shoot heavy weapons on the first turn this way, but...

Scouts have a Scout move. They can move before the game begins to get a sight on an enemy then (so long as they don't move them in your first Movement phase), they can shoot their heavy weapons first turn.

Now why you want your scouts that close to an enemy, I have no idea. But you can shoot from 13" away first turn with rifles this way.

Galador wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Crom wrote:OK, but for clarification when you guys refer to the big red book, you are referring to the 40K core rule book right?

Big Red Book is technically the fantasy one, but sometimes 40k-only players use that term for the 40k one too, since the 5th ed 40k rulebook has a red background on the cover, which makes it much more red than the near-pure-grey 4th-ed 40k book. BGB is still probably more accurate, especially relative to the WH rulebook.

Ahhh, so thats why he asked that question!! Haven't ever played fantasy, nor went to and Fantasy forums, so didn't know they used BRB also. Thanks Mannahin!

If you mouse over the terms "BGB" and "BRB" the forum software pops up a little box actually telling you. Though it doesn't explain why.

Crom wrote:OK, but for clarification when you guys refer to the big red book, you are referring to the 40K core rule book right?

BRB in this case is Base Rule Book, not Big Red Book. He is referring to the 40k Base Rules.

That said, for the purposes of definitions on Dakka Dakka, please refer to the mouseover popup.

Galador wrote:

Zyllos wrote:

Crom wrote:

Galador wrote:The eldar long rifle still uses its own rules, as codex normally overrules BRB.

Hmm, OK, but I remember reading that if a core rule book changes the rules of an older codex you use the new rule book. So, you would still use the rules for Eldar sniper rifles versus the sniper rifle rules in the BRB?

##EDIT

Like for example it says a roll of a 6 is AP1, and really doesn't the rending rule replace that? So, then the sniper rifles do not rend from the edlar and they do not get that additional D3 for armor penetration since they are not rending?

No, because then the Tau Cyclic Ion Blaster would also be rending under that same thought and it is not played that way (it has the same ruling in the Codex: Tau Empire stating "...a roll of 6 is AP1..."). And I would LOVE to have an Assault 5 S3 rending weapon

The only problem with the Cyclic Ion Blaster is that nowhere in its profile does it list it as a sniper weapon, so it doesn't get the rending from being a sniper weapon. However, ranger long rifles are sniper, so they get the rending and pinning rules from their weapon type, they just increase their rending shots to AP1.

Eldar sniper rifles still rend, because it is classed as a sniper rifle in its profile, so it goes by the sniper rifle rules along with its additional rules in the codex. Basic thing that it does now is for its rending against vehicles, it counts as AP1 instead of AP2. Remember though, that just because with a Pathfinder unit the AP1 happens on a 5+, rending still only happens on a 6.

Hope that clears those two things up for you.

OK but in the new rules it says all sniper rifles hit on 4+ regardless, are pinning and rending. In the Eldar book they list their sniper rifles as AP1 on a 6, sniper, and pinning. So the pinning rule is redundant, and I think that implies that the new rules take precedence? At least that is what I gather from GW stating that whenever a new rule modifies an older rule you go with the new rule.

Or do Eldar sniper rifles get both the benefit from the 6 AP1 and 6 rending, and pinning? That seems a bit over the top to me compared to other sniper rifles, but if that is the case then that is the case. Can anyone verify this is the case? That means on a roll of a 5+ to hit they are AP1, which is pretty much instant death to any model with one wound, and on a roll of a 6 to wound they are instant death to any model. That seems a bit over powered to me. Especially if you get a AP1 shot that rends, then it is just game over for that model. I don't think GW meant to have a basic troop unit (even though pathfinders can be a bit pricey points wise) to be able to take down elites or monstrous creatures that easily. Then get the +D3 armor penetration for being rending and +1 if the shot is AP1.

If that is the case, they are the best snipers in the game.

Fiend wrote:Scouts with sniper rifles who deployed/infiltrated out of sight will have to move to see an enemy (unless an enemy moved into sight). No ducking and such as mentioned.
In this scenario, you couldn't shoot heavy weapons on the first turn this way, but...

This isn't completely true. You have to be out of LOS of the enemy, but the enemy can be in your LOS.

For example:
Terrain between you and your target. Your target can't see past it at all, but it's leg is sticking out of the terrain. You can deploy 12" away and still be able to shoot it.

Grakmar wrote:

Fiend wrote:Scouts with sniper rifles who deployed/infiltrated out of sight will have to move to see an enemy (unless an enemy moved into sight). No ducking and such as mentioned.
In this scenario, you couldn't shoot heavy weapons on the first turn this way, but...

This isn't completely true. You have to be out of LOS of the enemy, but the enemy can be in your LOS.

For example:
Terrain between you and your target. Your target can't see past it at all, but it's leg is sticking out of the terrain. You can deploy 12" away and still be able to shoot it.

LOS works both ways. If you can shoot at it, it can shoot at you. It also says that if you draw LOS your scouts must be more than 18" away from the nearest enemy. So, yes you can deploy in LOS. As I take it in the new rules really you are measuring from base to base as the model can be ducking, leaning, crouching and other various positions one may take while in engaged in combat.

Crom wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Fiend wrote:Scouts with sniper rifles who deployed/infiltrated out of sight will have to move to see an enemy (unless an enemy moved into sight). No ducking and such as mentioned.
In this scenario, you couldn't shoot heavy weapons on the first turn this way, but...

This isn't completely true. You have to be out of LOS of the enemy, but the enemy can be in your LOS.

For example:
Terrain between you and your target. Your target can't see past it at all, but it's leg is sticking out of the terrain. You can deploy 12" away and still be able to shoot it.

LOS works both ways. If you can shoot at it, it can shoot at you. It also says that if you draw LOS your scouts must be more than 18" away from the nearest enemy. So, yes you can deploy in LOS. As I take it in the new rules really you are measuring from base to base as the model can be ducking, leaning, crouching and other various positions one may take while in engaged in combat.

You check LOS by looking from a model's eyes. And, you can draw LOS to any body part on the target. This means there's plenty of situations where you can shoot at it, but it can't shoot at you.

OK but in the new rules it says all sniper rifles hit on 4+ regardless, are pinning and rending. In the Eldar book they list their sniper rifles as AP1 on a 6, sniper, and pinning. So the pinning rule is redundant, and I think that implies that the new rules take precedence? At least that is what I gather from GW stating that whenever a new rule modifies an older rule you go with the new rule.

Or do Eldar sniper rifles get both the benefit from the 6 AP1 and 6 rending, and pinning? That seems a bit over the top to me compared to other sniper rifles, but if that is the case then that is the case. Can anyone verify this is the case? That means on a roll of a 5+ to hit they are AP1, which is pretty much instant death to any model with one wound, and on a roll of a 6 to wound they are instant death to any model. That seems a bit over powered to me. Especially if you get a AP1 shot that rends, then it is just game over for that model. I don't think GW meant to have a basic troop unit (even though pathfinders can be a bit pricey points wise) to be able to take down elites or monstrous creatures that easily. Then get the +D3 armor penetration for being rending and +1 if the shot is AP1.

If that is the case, they are the best snipers in the game.

Rangers and pathfinders hit on their BS.
They wound on 4+ according to the sniper rule on pg. 31 of the rule book.
Eldar long rifles have the pinning rule twice.
An AP1 shot that rends is redundant unless you are hitting a vehicle.
Pathfinders are arguably the best snipers in the game, they are also the most expensive.

Grakmar wrote:

Crom wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Fiend wrote:Scouts with sniper rifles who deployed/infiltrated out of sight will have to move to see an enemy (unless an enemy moved into sight). No ducking and such as mentioned.
In this scenario, you couldn't shoot heavy weapons on the first turn this way, but...

This isn't completely true. You have to be out of LOS of the enemy, but the enemy can be in your LOS.

For example:
Terrain between you and your target. Your target can't see past it at all, but it's leg is sticking out of the terrain. You can deploy 12" away and still be able to shoot it.

LOS works both ways. If you can shoot at it, it can shoot at you. It also says that if you draw LOS your scouts must be more than 18" away from the nearest enemy. So, yes you can deploy in LOS. As I take it in the new rules really you are measuring from base to base as the model can be ducking, leaning, crouching and other various positions one may take while in engaged in combat.

You check LOS by looking from a model's eyes. And, you can draw LOS to any body part on the target. This means there's plenty of situations where you can shoot at it, but it can't shoot at you.

Ah yeah you are right I just looked it up, it says you must draw LOS to any single part of the model's body. So, maybe in some rare cases if the model is not facing you then you can deploy. It also says you can lean up against and peek over cover (looked it up too) if the model is tall enough to do so. So, it is possible, but I would say very rare to be in that situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dok wrote:

OK but in the new rules it says all sniper rifles hit on 4+ regardless, are pinning and rending. In the Eldar book they list their sniper rifles as AP1 on a 6, sniper, and pinning. So the pinning rule is redundant, and I think that implies that the new rules take precedence? At least that is what I gather from GW stating that whenever a new rule modifies an older rule you go with the new rule.

Or do Eldar sniper rifles get both the benefit from the 6 AP1 and 6 rending, and pinning? That seems a bit over the top to me compared to other sniper rifles, but if that is the case then that is the case. Can anyone verify this is the case? That means on a roll of a 5+ to hit they are AP1, which is pretty much instant death to any model with one wound, and on a roll of a 6 to wound they are instant death to any model. That seems a bit over powered to me. Especially if you get a AP1 shot that rends, then it is just game over for that model. I don't think GW meant to have a basic troop unit (even though pathfinders can be a bit pricey points wise) to be able to take down elites or monstrous creatures that easily. Then get the +D3 armor penetration for being rending and +1 if the shot is AP1.

If that is the case, they are the best snipers in the game.

Rangers and pathfinders hit on their BS.
They wound on 4+ according to the sniper rule on pg. 31 of the rule book.
Eldar long rifles have the pinning rule twice.
An AP1 shot that rends is redundant unless you are hitting a vehicle.
Pathfinders are arguably the best snipers in the game, they are also the most expensive.

OK, so Eldar snipers on a 6 (5 for pathfinders) are AP1 and on a 6 to wound rending. They are expensive for other reasons too though. Their really tough cover saves. So I guess you would need to roll your AP1 shots to wound separately beacuse if you roll a 1, 2 or 3 the wound would fail, 4+ the wound would take hold and on a 6 it would be automatic. Well I guess you would need to roll them separate against armored things. Since rending is considered an AP2 hit on a 6.

Mannahnin wrote:That said, for the purposes of definitions on Dakka Dakka, please refer to the mouseover popup.

In his defense BRB doesn't have Base Rule Book [40k] listed as a definition.

Crom wrote:OK, so Eldar snipers on a 6 (5 for pathfinders) are AP1 and on a 6 to wound rending. They are expensive for other reasons too though. Their really tough cover saves. So I guess you would need to roll your AP1 shots to wound separately because if you roll a 1, 2 or 3 the wound would fail, 4+ the wound would take hold and on a 6 it would be automatic. Well I guess you would need to roll them separate against armored things. Since rending is considered an AP2 hit on a 6.

Let me completely break it down for you, cause I think you are still slightly confusing the hit and wound portions.

Lets take a 10 man Pathfinder squad.

First scenario: the Pathfinders decide they are going to shoot the Space Marines standing in front of them 36" away. You would then measure to make sure you are in range, and you would then roll 10 dice. you roll them and you get 1,1,2,3,3,4,5,5,6. Being the awesome snipers that they are, they start at Ballistic Skill 4, which means they need a three to hit to start with, so out of your 10 shots, 6 of them hit. Also, because of the special rule for them being Pathfinders, the 5, 5, and 6 are all AP1 shots. The 3,3,4 are still AP6. Now you will take that 3,3,4 and roll it separately from the 5,5,6 because they are now different shots, and you wouldn't want to mix them up, cause you might miss all the AP1 shots, but wouldn't know unless you roll them separately or with different colored dice. ok, so you roll the 3,3,4 and you get 3,4,6. This means that 2 of the normal shots wounded and one missed, as sniper rifles wound on a 4+. However, that 6 that you got on the wound just went to AP2 because of the rending rule that sniper rifles have! so right now they have one armor save that they can take, and one that is dead(for simplicity's sake, we are going with Tac Marines in the open). You can then roll the 3 AP1 shots. you roll the dice and get 2,3,5. This means another space marine is dead, and two of the shots missed. The Space Marine rolls his Armour save and passes it, meaning two dead marines total(a nonstandard roll with Pathfinders, but just keeping it simple). At this point in time, the Space Marines would take a Pinning test, because all sniper rifles are now Pinning. The reference to it in the Eldar codex is a holdover from 4th edition, so you only get one Pinning save, as per the pinning rules in the 40k Rulebook. They fail their test, and are pinned. Understand??

Second Scenario: Same 10 man Pathfinder unit decides to shoot at a Dark Eldar Raider. Raiders are Armour 10 all around, which means its hard, but not impossible for the Pathfinders to penetrate the armor, but they will more reliably glance it. Ok, so you measure and find out that the Raider is in range, then roll your 10 dice for the shots. Remember, you are Ballistic Skill 4, so you need 3+ to hit. You roll a 1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6. So out of your 10 shots, you got 7 hits. 3 of those hits are now AP1 once again(this is important later), so you separate them once again, and then you roll to penetrate armour. According to the 40k rulebook, all sniper rifles are strength 3 against Vehicles, and you have to roll a 6 to get rending to have a chance. So lets start with the non AP1 shots. you take and roll your 4 dice and you roll a 2,4,4,6. This means that you got one Rending shot of a 6 according to the Rending rules. This shot now becomes AP2(but that doesn't matter against vehicles) and you will roll a D3 and add it to the current Armour penetration of the shot of 9. You roll your D3 and get a 2, which means you have a total Armour penetration of 10, which will glance the Raider. You will then take your 3 AP1 shots and roll for penetration. You roll your dice and you once again get a 2,4,6(are you using loaded dice? , which means one of these shots now gets the additional D3 added onto its Armour penetration of 9. You roll the D3 and you get a 4, which will add +2 to the Armour penetration, making it an 11, which means you penetrated the vehicles armour. You will then roll the results of both the Glance and the Penetrate on the Vehicle Damage Table. You roll the Glance and get a 3, which is -2 for being a glance, so becomes a 1, but is +1 for the Raider being Opentopped, so becomes a 2, so right now the Raider can't move or shoot next turn, and anything on board cannot shoot or disembark. Then you roll your Penetrate roll and score a 4, which will then go up by one because the Raider is Open-Topped, and will go up ANOTHER +1 because that shot was AP1, thanks to the Eldar Rifle's special rule, so you just got a Destroyed - Explodes Result on the Vehicle thanks to the AP1! It crashes to the ground, and anything on board and within D6" of it will take a Strength 3 hit, and then you continue on with your game.

Hope this clears up both infantry and vehicles for you, but if you have any other questions about it, feel free to ask!!