scouts and infiltrate/scout rules

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**Shivan Reaper**

Galador wrote:... You roll the Glance and get a 3, which is -2 for being a glance, so becomes a 1, but is +1 for the Raider being Opentopped, so becomes a 2, so right now the Raider can't move or shoot next turn, and anything on board cannot shoot or disembark. Then...

Half right, if their vehicle had survived, they couldn't shoot out of it, but could still disembark normally.

**Galador**

Shivan Reaper wrote:
Galador wrote:... You roll the Glance and get a 3, which is -2 for being a glance, so becomes a 1, but is +1 for the Raider being Opentopped, so becomes a 2, so right now the Raider can't move or shoot next turn, and anything on board cannot shoot or disembark. Then...

Half right, if their vehicle had survived, they couldn't shoot out of it, but could still disembark normally.

Sorry about that, it was a long post!

**FlingitNow**

You will then take your 3 AP1 shots and roll for penetration. You roll your dice and you once again get a 2,4,6(are you using loaded dice? , which means one of these shots now gets the additional D3 added onto its Armour penetration of 9. You roll the D3 and you get a 4, which will add +2 to the Armour penetration, making it an 11, which means you penetrated the vehicles armour. You will then roll the results of both the Glance and the Penetrate on the Vehicle Damage Table. You roll the Glance and get a 3, which is -2 for being a glance, so becomes a 1, but is +1 for the Raider being Opentopped, so becomes a 2, so right now the Raider can't move or shoot next turn, and anything on board cannot shoot or disembark. Then you roll your Penetrate roll and score a 4, which will then go up by one because the Raider is Open-Topped, and will go up ANOTHER +1 because that shot was AP1, thanks to the Eldar Rifle's special rule, so you just got a Destroyed - Explodes Result on the Vehicle thanks to the AP1! It crashes to the ground, and anything on board and within D6" of it will take a Strength 3 hit, and then you continue on with your game.

Again nearly right as the 6 was a rend the AP1 is reduced to AP2, so you don't get the extra +1 and the vehicle is just wrecked.

For this reason when firing at a vehicle you don't need to separate the AP1 hits as any that rend will be reduced to AP2 and any that don't won't do damage...

**Galador**

^ I stand corrected. I know in my FLGS we always count it as AP1 whenever the Eldar player brings Pathfinders. But Fling has the right of it on that part.

**diesel7270**

I don't think anyone answered his other question. Or maybe I just formed it myself based off of his input. Does a Scout move before the game starts count as the squad having moved for turn 1, thus preventing use of sniper rifles? I don't think so, but I've heard people have crazier defenses against getting shot at.

**Grakmar**

FlingitNow wrote:Again nearly right as the 6 was a rend the AP1 is reduced to AP2, so you don't get the extra +1 and the vehicle is just wrecked.

For this reason when firing at a vehicle you don't need to separate the AP1 hits as any that rend will be reduced to AP2 and any that don't won't do damage...

This is not true. A rending attack counts as AP2 on a roll to wound of a 6. But, you don't roll to wound a vehicle, you roll an armor penetration.

Rolling a 6 on an armor penetration roll has no effect on the AP of the rending weapon.

See page 31 of BGB

**ruminator**

Question is whether a scout move counts as moving for the purposes of heavy weapons.

Scout move occurs prior to that turn, so as long as they don't move in the movement phase of turn 1 they will be able to shoot snipers.

Why you want the snipers anywhere near the enemy is a mystery though? The sniper rifles have 36" range and they won't get cover saves in CC, so you want them well out of charge range. Only time you'd get scouts close was if you went for the melta/fist/combat blade suicide option, but then heavy wpns are not an issue.

**FlingitNow**

I don't think anyone answered his other question. Or maybe I just formed it myself based off of his input. Does a Scout move before the game starts count as the squad having moved for turn 1, thus preventing use of sniper rifles? I don't think so, but I've heard people have crazier defenses against getting shot at.

No the scout move has no impact on what actions you can take in your own turn. For instance if you have a fast skimmer with scout it can move flatout and then move another 6" in your turn and fir everything or move 12" unload infantry and they can assault if vehicle is assault or open topped.

This is not true. A rending attack counts as AP2 on a roll to wound of a 6. But, you don't roll to wound a vehicle, you roll an armor penetration.

Rolling a 6 on an armor penetration roll has no effect on the AP of the rending weapon.

See page 31 of BGB

Good catch I stand corrected

**Crom**

for the record, the scouts were deployed on an objective, so they could hold it. Since Eldar scouts count as troop types they can also hold objectives. My sky claws flushed them out first turn though and then my lone wolf ate them for breakfast.

I guess my main question is, if you have to deploy hidden, and you cannot see me, and you remain hidden then the first turn you cannot simply pop up and say oh hai thar we're near your base and are gonna shoot you. Unless they use their free move before the game begins to move out of being hidden and into position. Is this correct?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:
FlingitNow wrote:Again nearly right as the 6 was a rend the AP1 is reduced to AP2, so you don't get the extra +1 and the vehicle is just wrecked.

For this reason when firing at a vehicle you don't need to separate the AP1 hits as any that rend will be reduced to AP2 and any that don't won't do damage...

This is not true. A rending attack counts as AP2 on a roll to wound of a 6. But, you don't roll to wound a vehicle, you roll an armor penetration.

Rolling a 6 on an armor penetration roll has no effect on the AP of the rending weapon.

See page 31 of BGB

So then you could never rend a vehicle.....

**FlingitNow**

I guess my main question is, if you have to deploy hidden, and you cannot see me, and you remain hidden then the first turn you cannot simply pop up and say oh hai thar we're near your base and are gonna shoot you. Unless they use their free move before the game begins to move out of being hidden and into position. Is this correct?

Yes this is correct.

So then you could never rend a vehicle.....

Yes you can read the page quoted.

**Crom**

OK, you are right just read the rules..... If you roll a 6 on armor penetration you get an additional D3, however, if you roll a 6 on AP, and your shot is now rending, the shot counts as AP2....?

**FlingitNow**

No rending means that if you rolled to wound the shot counts as AP2 if you roll pen then the shot gains d3 penetration and the AP does not change.

**nosferatu1001**

Rolling to wound is NOT THE SAME as rolling to penetrate a vehicle.

When you roll to wound, and roll a 6 with a rending weapon, the AP of the rending hit is changed to AP2.

WHen you roll to penetrate a vehicle, and roll a 6, you get an extra D3 of armour penetration BUT your AP is not changed.

Thus if you roll a 6 to "hit" with a Ranger, then a "6" to penetrate a vehicle you will have an AP1 shot with an extra D3 of armour penetration. SUrprisingly good at popping vehicles.

**Crom**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Rolling to wound is NOT THE SAME as rolling to penetrate a vehicle.

When you roll to wound, and roll a 6 with a rending weapon, the AP of the rending hit is changed to AP2.

WHen you roll to penetrate a vehicle, and roll a 6, you get an extra D3 of armour penetration BUT your AP is not changed.

Thus if you roll a 6 to "hit" with a Ranger, then a "6" to penetrate a vehicle you will have an AP1 shot with an extra D3 of armour penetration. SUrprisingly good at popping vehicles.

OK yeah I get it

so scenario 1 against a vehicle

Pathfinder rolls a 5 to hit, gets AP1 shot, then rolls a 6 for armor penetration and gets to add +D3, and then gets to add +1 for being AP1.

scenario 2 against a troop

pathfinder rolls a 6 to hit so it is AP1, but also rolls a 6 to wound so it is rending and counts as AP2. Either way AP2 still doesn't allow for any saves so it is sort of redundant at that point.

**nosferatu1001**

Scenario 1 is not correct - close but not quite.

AP1 does not add to the Armour Pentration Roll, it adds to the *damage chart* roll

So scenario 1 becomes: you add 3 + 6 + D3 to find out if you have glanced / penetrated the vehicle. If you do either you add 1 to the damage result because of AP1

**Mannahnin**

Nos has it.

PxDnNinja wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:That said, for the purposes of definitions on Dakka Dakka, please refer to the mouseover popup.

In his defense BRB doesn't have Base Rule Book [40k] listed as a definition.

Right, and I was kind of obliquely pointing out that Base Rule Book is not the definition for "BRB" we use on this site, in part because we talk about more than one game. Hence the confusion, as he was using the acronym for a definition which may be common in his local play group, but not here on Dakka.