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I have 5 points left to spend in my army, with nothing really to spend it on.
I have a 2-man crisis suit squad: both standard fireknife suits, same loadout.
I can spend 5 points to upgrade one to a team leader, which gives him access to the armory. Doesn't change his stats, and I don't actually give him any different equipment.

If I do this, can I use/abuse wound allocation on that unit? The relevant passage from the BRB says:

40k 5e page 25 wrote: Taking Saving Throws
Having allocated the wounds, all the models in the unit that are identical in gaming terms take their saving throws at the same time...

So the question is: I have 2 different models. One is a Crisis Battlesuit Shas'ui, one is a Crisis Battlesuit Shas'ui Team Leader. However, as no wargear was taken, they are functionally, in gaming terms, no different. What happens?

The only thing the complex rules care about are:

1) Characteristics (which are identical between the team leader and other squad member).
2) Special Rules (which are the same: they only have the 'XV8 Battlesuit' special rule in their codex entry).
3) Weapons (which are the same in this case because you equipped them the same).
4) Wargear (is the same because you haven't given them anything differentl).


So in order to make them a complex unit, you need to change one of those 4 things. I highly suggest dropping something somewhere and taking a bonding knife. It is highly worth it both for wound allocation and because Tau often fail their morale.

But there is no point giving a bonding knife to a 2 man Crisis suit team. If the unit is below half strength then its totally dead.

yakface wrote:
1) Characteristics (which are identical between the team leader and other squad member).

So two members of a unit with different names, different models and other distinguishing characteristics aren't different from their other squad members because their Stats are the same?

I dunno about that. We've always played it that a Terminator Sergeant is different from a regular Terminator, simply because he is a sergeant and it is outlined as such. He is a different model and a different character within the unit. Just because the statline is identical doesn't mean there aren't two separate stat lines, which there are, helping to distinguish one from the other.

puma713 wrote:

yakface wrote:
1) Characteristics (which are identical between the team leader and other squad member).

So two members of a unit with different names, different models and other distinguishing characteristics aren't different from their other squad members because their Stats are the same?

I dunno about that. We've always played it that a Terminator Sergeant is different from a regular Terminator, simply because he is a sergeant and it is outlined as such. He is a different model and a different character within the unit. Just because the statline is identical doesn't mean there aren't two separate stat lines, which there are, helping to distinguish one from the other.

It's a little different here. The Shas'ui doe not get a new name just for being designated as a team leader. You can then go ahead and upgrade a Shas'ui who has been designated to a Shas'vre. But then he gets a different WS as well as a new name.

The topic of does the name count as part of the profile was recently done in a 8,000 page thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/347421.page

kmdl1066 wrote:
It's a little different here. The Shas'ui doe not get a new name just for being designated as a team leader. You can then go ahead and upgrade a Shas'ui who has been designated to a Shas'vre. But then he gets a different WS as well as a new name.

Ah, that's my mistake. I am thinking of the Shas'vre.

I don't actually know any of this stuff the way yak/nos/insaniak/manaheim/etc. do. I just go look something up if I have access to the codex and then pretend I know what I'm talking about.

It's a good way to learn.

Flinty wrote:But there is no point giving a bonding knife to a 2 man Crisis suit team. If the unit is below half strength then its totally dead.

What that guy said.

BK are good but only if the unit is worth enough. (i.e 2 broadsides in a team with 2 shield drones)

kmdl1066 wrote:I don't actually know any of this stuff the way yak/nos/insaniak/manaheim/etc. do. I just go look something up if I have access to the codex and then pretend I know what I'm talking about.

It's a good way to learn.

Good approach. I don't have everything memorized either. I almost always double-check the book before posting, both because it helps keep my knowledge sharp, and keeps me from embarassing myself. I still make occasional mistakes, as do we all.

puma713 wrote:

yakface wrote:The only thing the complex rules care about are:

1) Characteristics (which are identical between the team leader and other squad member).
2) Special Rules (which are the same: they only have the 'XV8 Battlesuit' special rule in their codex entry).
3) Weapons (which are the same in this case because you equipped them the same).
4) Wargear (is the same because you haven't given them anything differentl).

So in order to make them a complex unit, you need to change one of those 4 things.

So two members of a unit with different names, different models and other distinguishing characteristics aren't different from their other squad members because their Stats are the same?

I dunno about that. We've always played it that a Terminator Sergeant is different from a regular Terminator, simply because he is a sergeant and it is outlined as such. He is a different model and a different character within the unit. Just because the statline is identical doesn't mean there aren't two separate stat lines, which there are, helping to distinguish one from the other.

People have conflicting views on the subject, but I see it this way:

The rules state that 'each model has a profile made up of nine numbers'. A 'profile of characteristics' is a 'profile [that] is made up of 9 numbers', the name is not one of the nine characteristics.

Characteristics are numbers and not names, since a name is not a number it can't be included in the BRB's definition of what a profile is, and is only there for reference so we know what profile of characteristics they are referencing.

These rules below, say to me, that a profile is made up of characteristics and the characteristics are listed, no where do I see "Unit name" as one of the characteristics, so with the permissive ruleset we can not include the name in the profile since we are given no permission to do so.
P.6 lists what Characteristics are (WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv)

P.6 "To represent the different abilities of these creatures in the game, each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describe the various aspects of their physical and mental make-up. These are called characteristics."

P.7 "Each model in warhammer 40k has a profile that lists the value of its characteristics"

P.25 under complex units:
"... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."

It could read like this and have exactly the same meaning because of the other rules presented:

"... Identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of nine numbers that are called characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."

If the nine numbers are Identical in gaming terms then two different profiles can be Identical in gaming terms.

Some people do not see it this way. But this, to me, is an open and shut case.

To put the other side across: you are asked to have the same profile.

If you have a different profile, like a terminator sarge has a different profile to the terminators then you are different. This is because it is not the SAME profile, despite the numbers making it up being identical.

Just as a quick aside, by the way you are claiming nos, no two models could have the "the same weapons and wargear." either.

Since 2 different bolt pistols, while identical, could never be the same weapon because they are 2 individual weapons.

Which is actually false, but nice attempt at winning an argument you lost long ago.

2 separate profiles *cannot* be the same profile. Ever. They may have the same numbers in them, but by virtue of having separate entries tehy are not the same profile.

Interesting you say I lost, when there are clearly people that agree with both of us, I would call it undecided.

having the same profile is different than having the same weapon?

I fail to see how that can be.

If you say same =/= identical then it applies for weapons and wargear as well.

2 separate Bolt Pistols *cannot* be the same Bolt Pistol. Ever. They may have the same stats, but by virtue of having separate models that they belong to, they are not the same Bolt Pistol.

just give a different weapon

DR - so actually adfdress the point.

You have two profiles, one named "Sarge" and one named "Terminator". Are these the SAME profile?

Same means Identical. The sarge and terminator profiles are the same.

P.6 "To represent the different abilities of these creatures in the game, each model has a profile made up of nine numbers that describe the various aspects of their physical and mental make-up. These are called characteristics."

If the profiles both have the same values for characteristics then the profiles are the same, since the profile does not include the name by the description on P.6 and a profile of characteristics = profile of 9 numbers they call characteristics.

If same does not mean identical then we run into problems with being able to allocate to every member of a squad because they all do not have the same bolt pistol, they have identical bolt pistols. In a five man squad we have 5 different bolt pistols that are not the same bolt pistol, yet they are identical.

A profile lists the value of its characteristics P.7

In the case of the assault terminators they, and the sarge, are Identical in gaming terms. The sarge has a different profile that is the same as the terminators, aka Identical in gaming terms. aka the values of its characteristics are the same.

Yet the profiles are NOT the same. If they were the same there would be one single profile

That is what you constantly ignore, and is why you remain incorrect.

In this very thread we have the example of the Shas'ui team leader who doesn't get his own profile line to contrast with Terminator Sergeants who do get their own profile line.

While they are separate profiles, they are also identical. They can be both. What is looked at for would allocation purposes is them being identical, aka, having different characteristics, having differing special rules, or different wargear or weapons, as per the rulebook. So, even with them having different entries, they have identical stats, all the same special rules, the same weapon load, and the same pieces of wargear. By game mechanics, they are identical. The 'sarge' profile is capable of taking additional/different options, which would make him distinguishable if he did, but the current situation leaves him as identical.

I am not ignoring they are two different entries, But the two entries are identical in gaming terms and that is what the rules care about.

If they need the same profile, they need the same weapons and wargear as well.

Two different Bolt Pistols are NOT the same.

By your definition a unit of 5 marines would be able to allocate to specific marines because they all have different Identical Bolt Pistols.

If they all needed to be the same, as you claim, then every unit would be a complex unit, which is not the case.

DR - it asks for the same profile. it is not the same profile.

Yes, you are ignoring this because it undermines your argument. good try again though.

It also asks for the same wargear and weapons.

so 2 marines with frag and krak grenades, by your interpretation, do not have the same frag and krak grenades because each model has a different pair of frag and krak grenades.

Interpreting it your way makes every unit a complex unit.

It does not undermine my argument, because they are asked to be "identical in gaming terms" = "same".

I give you credit for sticking to your side of it, with the overwhelming evidence against you.

Your flawed argument /- overwhelming evidence. - Removed. Let's keep it civil, folks. -

Two different profiles /= THE SAME profile. Your mangling of the English language notwithstanding, of course.

And Two different Bolt Pistols /= THE SAME Bolt Pistols. Your mangling of the English language notwithstanding, of course.

DeathReaper wrote:And Two different Bolt Pistols /= THE SAME Bolt Pistols.

Sorry, but what one earth does this mean? Are you saying that two different Bolt Pistol use different 'Bolt Pistol Profiles', and how on earth are you allocating wounds to bolt pistols?

ChrisCP wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:And Two different Bolt Pistols /= THE SAME Bolt Pistols.

Sorry, but what one earth does this mean? Are you saying that two different Bolt Pistol use different 'Bolt Pistol Profiles', and how on earth are you allocating wounds to bolt pistols?

It means:
P.25 under complex units:
"... Identical in gaming terms. by this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same weapons and wargear."

It does not say they need to share a profile. If people read same as needing to share a profile, then you would have to read same as needing to share weapons and wargear as well. 5 marines with 1 set of power armor, 1 bolt pistol, 1 frag and 1 krak grenade makes for an interesting unit.

If people read same as "Two different profiles /= THE SAME profile" then "Two different Bolt Pistols /= THE SAME Bolt Pistol" thus you have a group of 5 marines that are all their own model in a complex unit. Because if If people read same as needing to share a profile then they need read same as needing to share the same weapons (not two identical profiles and identical weapons).

They only need to be identical in gaming terms.

puma713 wrote:So two members of a unit with different names, different models and other distinguishing characteristics aren't different from their other squad members because their Stats are the same?

I dunno about that. We've always played it that a Terminator Sergeant is different from a regular Terminator, simply because he is a sergeant and it is outlined as such. He is a different model and a different character within the unit. Just because the statline is identical doesn't mean there aren't two separate stat lines, which there are, helping to distinguish one from the other.

Isn't he different anyway because the Sarge has a power sword while the squad have powerfists??? So different wargear would mean you would have to allocate anyway, correct?

DeathReaper wrote:If people read same as "Two different profiles /= THE SAME profile" then "Two different Bolt Pistols /= THE SAME Bolt Pistol" thus you have a group of 5 marines that are all their own model in a complex unit. Because if If people read same as needing to share a profile then they need read same as needing to share the same weapons (not two identical profiles and identical weapons).

This would only be true of the people disagreeing with you were claiming that the two models had to be the same physical model. Which they're not, as it's a patently adsurd claim.

The two bolt pistols don't need to be the same weapon. They just need to be the same weapon profile. Just as the two models don't need to be the same physical model... they just need to share a profile.

One bolt pistol is exactly the same as another bolt pistol.
One model with a profile labelled 'X' is not the same as a model with a profile labelled 'Y' however, even if their characteristics are identical... because it has a different name.

DR: Go back to page 7 of the BRB; "Below are the profiles, blah, blah, blah" notice how they include the names of the Space marine and the Ork boy?

The profile lists the Characteristics; it is not just the Characteristics