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Im an experienced player that has took my first marine army,( Blood angels) . It only took 5 years to getting around to playing a marine army. Ive got a couple of questions on reserves and combat squads, especially for jump troops. .

1> Does the unit of Deep striking jump troops get placed in reserve as a 10 man unit and then during the game one reserve roll is made for the 10 man group and then they are split up into 2 – 5 man units before the Deepstrike takes place? Ie. 2 separate deepstikes.
Or---
2> Does the unit of Deep striking jump troops get placed in reserve as a 10 man unit and then during the game one reserve roll is made for the 10 man group and then they may be split up into 2 – 5 man units after the Deepstrike takes place? Ie. 1 deepstrike and then there are 2 squads clumped together in 1 deepstrike formation.?
Or—
3> Are they placed in reserve as two separate 5 man groups, and they each make a reserve roll and each a seperate Deepstrike roll.
Or—
4> Deployment only happens during the initial phase prior to the start of the game, so troops can not be split after the game starts.
Or-
5>am I totally off base here and its something else. ??

Units in Reserve cannot Combat Squad at all. Except for units in Drop Pods.

BA FAQ, pg 2:

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat
squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the
Drop Pod? (p32)
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads.

True, but not really the answer.

The first choice (reserve as a full unit, roll for them, then deepstrike separately) is correct. The reason is because once you place them on the board for Deep Strike, they are being deployed, which is when you combat squad.

The FAQ is referring to placing the squad in reserve as combat squads, which is not allowed because reserving is not deploying.

At no point in the first choice though do you have combat squads in reserve.

Read it again.

squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads.

Is the squad placed in Reserve? Then it cannot break into combat squads. How is your example getting around this?

Because the FAQ is specifically addressing breaking them down while they are in Reserve? Otherwise you would never be able to break down when arriving from a Drop Pod, as they would be placed in Reserve, and the FAQ wouldn't allow it.

Except for the fact that Drop Pods allow it.

Drop pods create a specific exception to the general rule that you can't combat squad if you Reserve.

I must respectfully disagree. I think there is this misconception that the FAQ entry changes the rule for combat squads. The FAQ is basically saying that you cannot combat squad and leave half of the squad in reserve. Consider the following:

[SM Codex pg 51]
"The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed."

[Rule book pg 94]
"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later."
(emphasis mine)

While it is true that the FAQ states that a unit cannot combat squad while in reserve, is does not contradict the rule which says they can combat squad while deploying after arriving from reserve.

I suspect that what you are expressing may be the intent, but the wording of the FAQ ruling is sufficiently broad to forbid any CSing if a squad Reserves (except for pods). It sucks, but that appears to be the rule right now.

If the ruling in the FAQ is looked at in a vacuum, then I would agree with that sentiment, but it needs to be considered in context with the other related rules concerned. Again, I don't believe that any of the existing rules are contradicted by this ruling.

The context of the language and the question asked supports the "no combat squad WHILE IN reserve" side.

The present tense indicates this (may not) as opposed to "may not ever" which would be needed to prevent them using the rule when deploying, is my reading of it.

Wrong thread =P

My understanding:

Put into reserves as one unit. Roll to arrive as one unit. Deploy as one unit... hey, it says that when deploying I may choose to combat squad! Okay I'll choose to combat squad.

The drop pod exception is to allow a unit that was deployed transported by a drop pod to combat squad when disembarking from the drop pod, i.e. after deployment.

I'm not allowed to combat squad before deployment (including while in reserves) so I can't combat squad and put one squad into reserve and deploy one combat squad onto the table. The FAQ makes it clear that you can't use the combat squad after deployment exception for drop pods to combat squad before deployment.

The problem is all the rules are written with the mistaken understanding that there is a "Deployment" phase, which there is not. So many things are worded as "during Deployment" for their timing when "deployment" can happen at lots of different points in the game.

Their use of the word "deployment" when dealing with beginning a game, bringing models on from Reserve, and even disembarking, makes it very unclear the timing of certain things.

By the logic that the unit "deploys" out of Reserve then certain rules that happen "after the army deploys" wouldn't happen until all Reserves are brought in and every model was out of transport. That being the only time an army is completely deployed.

kmdl1066 wrote:My understanding:

Put into reserves as one unit. Roll to arrive as one unit. Deploy as one unit... hey, it says that when deploying I may choose to combat squad! Okay I'll choose to combat squad.

The drop pod exception is to allow a unit that was deployed transported by a drop pod to combat squad when disembarking from the drop pod, i.e. after deployment.

I'm not allowed to combat squad before deployment (including while in reserves) so I can't combat squad and put one squad into reserve and deploy one combat squad onto the table. The FAQ makes it clear that you can't use the combat squad after deployment exception for drop pods to combat squad before deployment.

This is correct. All the FAQ ruling does is prevent you from forming Combat Squads in Reserve. It forces you to deploy the entire 10 man squad, at which point you may then decide to break them into two Combat Squads. The rules specifically says 'the player picks any of the units arriving and deploys it', not places it.

So if I have two 10 man tactical squads that I'm holding in Reserve (because of Dawn of War for example). I have to make my reserve roll for each 10 man unit. I can't break them into two squads and roll for them separately while they are in Reserves. Once the reserve roll is successfully made for each 10 man squad, I may then deploy them and choose whether or not I wish to form the Combat Squads.

The Drop Pod exception allows you to form a Combat Squad after deployment of a 10 man tactical that arrived via Drop Pod. Specifically it is when they disembark from the Drop Pod.

-Yad

How is the DP situation any different from what you are saying normal Reserved units do?

Because when they arrive by drop pod they have already deployed; when they leave the drop pod they are disembarking.

Without the exception the DP rule provides they could neither CS in reserve (as they havent yet deployed, and as the FAQ reminds us), nor CS when you place the drop pod (as then you would have two units in one non-SR, non-SH vehicle, which is not allowed) meaning they would be stuck as one unit.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:How is the DP situation any different from what you are saying normal Reserved units do?

The DP situation is different in that once you've placed the Drop Pod you've 'deployed' the unit. The DP rules then force you disembark the embarked unit. The exception kicks in allowing you to form two Combat Squads when you disembark the tactical squad.

-Yad

Actually you are both wrong, the squad is "Deployed" out of the pod.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Actually you are both wrong, the squad is "Deployed" out of the pod.

Really? I thought the DP rule was something to the effect of 'once the Drop Pod arrives, the unit must immediately disembark'. Is that wrong?

-Yad

Read the disembarking rules though.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Read the disembarking rules though.

Never noticed that before.

[cheese]
Full tactical squad disembarks from a rhino on turn 5 and becomes 2 combat squads...
[/cheese]

I do think it is implied that this would not be legal by the fact that they specify a case when combat squads would be legal during disembarking from the drop pod, but this is actually an interesting point regardless.

Are you suggesting that when you disembark a unit from a vehicle (any vehicle) you are deploying it?

I've always thought that this is one part of the rules that was rather well written.

1. No formation of Combat Squads in Reserves.
2. Roll for entire unit.
3. Choose to form Combat Squads when you deploy unit.

For a unit arriving via Drop Pod:

1.) No formation of Combat Squads while in Reserve.
2.) Roll for entire unit
3.) Deploy Drop Pod
4.) Disembark unit
5.) Choose to form Combat Squad

-Yad

OK 3,4,and 5 are out. and theres not a consensus yet if they are broken up before or after deepstrike.

Could it possibly be both 1&2.?? Let me think about this outload if I may.

1>"the decision to combat squads is decided when the unit is deployed" "when" being the word in question. it implies neither before or after, but more a meaning of "at the time"....

2>"Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations" Allows me to split the squads before deepstrike, but does not make me split squads beforehand.

3>"The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod - the player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks." Now "disembaks" probably wasnt the best wording here. But I assume they wanted to prevent people from wheeling around in a rhino for 3 turns and then combat squading when they get out. They could have been clearer on units choosing to deepstrike.

it tries to tie 1 and 2 together with an exclusioary phrase and doesnt do a very good job at it. I have to assume that they ment "the drop pod is the only way they can split after the get here"

not that Id really want to drop them as 1 group and have them all bunched up for pie plate goodness but it may have its uses, especialy if I have dante in the group and need an accurate drop and then to decide to split them up.

They break up before they deepstrike in. Deepstrike is how you deploy, and you CS when you deploy.

So you rolll 1 dice to bring your 10 man unit in, they can then deploy in seperate locations (with sep scatter, etc)

If you are worried about being bunched up, thats what Run is for.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The context of the language and the question asked supports the "no combat squad WHILE IN reserve" side.

The present tense indicates this (may not) as opposed to "may not ever" which would be needed to prevent them using the rule when deploying, is my reading of it.

+1.

kmdl1066 wrote:My understanding:

Put into reserves as one unit. Roll to arrive as one unit. Deploy as one unit... hey, it says that when deploying I may choose to combat squad! Okay I'll choose to combat squad.

The drop pod exception is to allow a unit that was deployed transported by a drop pod to combat squad when disembarking from the drop pod, i.e. after deployment.

I'm not allowed to combat squad before deployment (including while in reserves) so I can't combat squad and put one squad into reserve and deploy one combat squad onto the table. The FAQ makes it clear that you can't use the combat squad after deployment exception for drop pods to combat squad before deployment.

This is as I understand it was well. Also prevents you from rolling for each combat squad to come in from reserves in seperate locations/turns.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:My understanding:

Put into reserves as one unit. Roll to arrive as one unit. Deploy as one unit... hey, it says that when deploying I may choose to combat squad! Okay I'll choose to combat squad.

The drop pod exception is to allow a unit that was deployed transported by a drop pod to combat squad when disembarking from the drop pod, i.e. after deployment.

I'm not allowed to combat squad before deployment (including while in reserves) so I can't combat squad and put one squad into reserve and deploy one combat squad onto the table. The FAQ makes it clear that you can't use the combat squad after deployment exception for drop pods to combat squad before deployment.

This is as I understand it was well. Also prevents you from rolling for each combat squad to come in from reserves in seperate locations/turns.

+1.
one roll to bring the entire squad in, deploy, then choose to CS if i want to.
surely the issue with the DP is only because they are deploying from a 'vehicle' (not sure if a DP is classed as a vehicle :S) whereas an assault squad (for example) is DSing under their own power (or that of jump packs )

Yes, the DP is a vehicle. It is a dedicated transport. If the exception wasn't there for the DP you would never be able to combat squad out of it because unlike other dedicated transports the drop pod must be placed in reserve.
One other thng to note is that if you have a 10 man squad and reserve it, you make one roll for it to arrive, you may then combat squad it as it deploys. Once you have made this decision, the combat squads are 2 separate units and can be deployed in 2 separate locations, following their rules for arriving from reserve.

I would argue the two seperate locations. Cannot combat squad until deployment and not deployed until on the table.