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After reading an existing thread, this problem arose:

Nemesis Falchions supposed ability is granting 1+ attack to users. But they are written as a "Pair" meaning two identical weapons...meaning an additional attack added on top of their ability of adding 1 attack.

My own arguement (I am neither for or against, just confused) is that it simply states "A wielder of nemesis falchions has +1 attacks", as if it speaks of the fact that they are a pair, therefore the attack is gained from that. It does not say "A wielder of nemesis falchions is granted an extra attack" It simply states they do, which is true because of the pair of identical weapons rule found on page 37 and 42 of the BRB.

(For those of you who cry "WE DONT HAVE THE CODEX!!!1!", all the information you need is in the picture below)

My guess is it was intended that a model with 1 attack base would have 2 attacks with a pair of falchions. But I do hope in earnest that I am wrong. If they indeed were intended to grant 2 attacks, they are actually worth their points. (Food for thought: Purifiers with falch's get 5 attacks on the charge. 2 Base, 1 for falch, 1 for 2 identical weps, 1 for charge. Who needs cleansing flame when you have already wiped the enemy ? )

None the less, TL;DR: Do Falchions grant 1+ attack as an ability and also give an extra for being a pair?

As I see it, yes they do grant +2 in RAW however I expect this to be FAQ'd shortly.

Psy.

ignoring the fluff (because you do) I say it does exactly what it says, it grants the wielder +1 attack, not +2, nothing there would indicate 2 extra attacks at all, I don't see where you could be reading into that

Unfortunately Stella, fluff has very little say so in the rules. Although I agree that RAI should +1 attacks, RAW they give +2.

I expect this to be corrected in the next FAQ.

Psy.

thats why I ignored the fluff, but raw I don't see how this gives +2 attacks, its a pair of weapons that gives +1 attack, thats what a pair of weapons does anyway, nothing there is saying to me +2

If a model wields two Close Combat Weapons it gains an extra attack.

Jaon is asking if they get a +1 attack on top of the falchions +1 for being a pair, which unless specifically stated in the codex, they would.

Psy.

What I am saying stella is (example):

Halberd = gives 2+ ini
Sword = gives 1+ inv save
Falchions = gives 1+ attack


but falchions are also a pair...so dont they get ANOTHER attack on top of their ability to give 1+ attack?

they are a pair yes, and it says that pair gives +1 attack, thats the only bonus, the fact its 2 weapons a pair of weapons is taken into account in that sentence, its a pair of weapons giving +1 attack, like any pair of weapons give +1 attack.

there just making it clear because they aren't called power weapons/thunder hammers/power fists/close combat weapons like most weapons are and are covered by in the rules.

if they said they grant an extra +1 attack I would probably agree they grant +2, because it is an extra on top of being a pair, but RAW its a pair that grant +1 attack just like any pair of CCW's does, they just have to make it clear in case somebody argues the rules don't make it clear the weapons are CCW's to start off with, which is true because falchions for all intents and purposes do not exist within the confines of the rules, we if the GK codex did not tell us they give +1 attack nobody would know, as they are not covered anywhere else in 40k, they are not in the main rulebook, they are not clearly labeled as CCW's to start with, and so do not exist at all or grant any bonus outside of the GK codex.

it would be like a codex saying "you can equip a model with a pair of nunchucks for 10pts", it means nothing, those weapons grant no bonus at all because they do not exist, they are not CCW's because they are not labeled as CCW's, they are nunchucks, they do nothing except cost 10pts, but if it said "you can equip a model with a pair of nunchucks that give +1 attack for 10pts", we now know what they do, and we needed them to tell us because nowhere else can tell us, and if it said "you can equip a model with a pair of nunchucks that count as a pair of CCW's that also grant an extra +1 attack for 10pts" then that would be 2 attacks

"No". I believe that this all a case of poor choice of words. If they wanted the scimitars to give +2 Attacks it
would have been really simple to, you know, just say so.

I think you've got a strong case for 'yes', but it really all comes down to how it is listed in the codex entry options. If the upgrade says the model is equipped with a pair of falchions, then I don't see why you wouldn't get the bonus for having two of the same special close combat weapon.

But if it just says 'Falchions' then its certainly a bit more ambiguous, because it could fall into the territory of the DE Demi-klave which is a single weapon but in its description it gives the option to split apart and fight in separate hands for +2 Attacks...but per the actual rules the model is still only equipped with a 'single' weapon (the demi-klave).

So again here, how is the option listed in the army list entry?


Edit: Looking at the leaked version, it does say a 'pair of Falchions' so I don't see any RAW reason that the model wouldn't get the +1A bonus for having two weapons on top of the Falchion's +1A.

I woudl expect it will be just a +1 as it doesn't specifically say "2 close combat weapons", it says "a pair of flachions".

i suppose for clarity the codex shoudl read "falchions are a pair of nemesis force weapons, and therefore count as the model having 2 close combat weapons, thus gaining +1A"


Maybe codecies are costed by the word? so it was a money savign exercise?

No (imo naturally), they do not specifically state they count as two CCWs, the +1 attack they confer is because if they didn't grant it one wouldn't be able to gain an attack "Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them." However if th model using them also had a pistol, then they would gain the two +1's as the falchions do not state they are a two-handed ccw.

@Yak: 'Falchions' falls in the same bracket as 'claws' or 'claws and teeth'. No?

good point. Substitue the word Falchion for "lightning claws" and it makes sense again.

ChrisCP wrote:No (imo naturally), they do not specifically state they count as two CCWs, the +1 attack they confer is because if they didn't grant it one wouldn't be able to gain an attack "Weapons like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc., do not confer any particular bonus to the model using them." However if th model using them also had a pistol, then they would gain the two +1's as the falchions do not state they are a two-handed ccw.

@Yak: 'Falchions' falls in the same bracket as 'claws' or 'claws and teeth'. No?

All Nemesis weapons are force weapons (along with giving the model the daemonbane special rule) on top of any other benefit they get. So yes, Falchions are most certainly special close combat weapons. Per the GW rulebook FAQ all close combat weapons are considered single handed unless they specify that they are two-handed, so we can safely assume that Falchions are single-handed.

Therefore, Falchions are single handed (special) close combat weapons and the model has two of them, so they SHOULD be getting the +1 Attack bonus for having two single handed CC weapons (as they are the same special weapon).

Ill agree with yak on this one, basing mine simply off of the wording from Lclaws.

Being a special CCW they need to be paired with the same for the extra attack.
This point has been met, so i believe they do get an extra attack from it.

Being a special CCW they need to be paired with the same for the extra attack.
This point has been met, so i believe they do get an extra attack from it.

What do Falchions do? Do they just add +1 attack or are they lightning claws? What is their points cost for Purifiers?

If they do nothing else than the attacks then it could also be the intent that they give +2 attacks. Then it's easy to apply the RAW and allow them the +2 attacks. If they're also lightning claws it sounds too good for a couple points per model.

Sorry, i believe they grant the +1 from thier rules, and then another +1 for using a pair of special CCW's.

I was simply using Lclaws as an example of a special CCW, i can swap that for fist, hammer etc if you would prefer?

It's pretty cut-and-dry. The text say "wielder of a pair has +1 attack". That's all.

Therion wrote:

Being a special CCW they need to be paired with the same for the extra attack.
This point has been met, so i believe they do get an extra attack from it.

What do Falchions do? Do they just add +1 attack or are they lightning claws? What is their points cost for Purifiers?

If they do nothing else than the attacks then it could also be the intent that they give +2 attacks. Then it's easy to apply the RAW and allow them the +2 attacks. If they're also lightning claws it sounds too good for a couple points per model.

All Nemesis weapons are force weapons that also have the Daemonbane special rule (if the model is immune to instant death and is wounded by a Nemesis weapon it has to take a Ld test and if it fails it is removed from play).

On top of that, as you can read from his picture at the top of this thread, a pair of Falchions give the model +1A as well.

They are 5 points for Purifiers or Paladins.

Mahtamori wrote:It's pretty cut-and-dry. The text say "wielder of a pair has +1 attack". That's all.

Yes, we're talking about the standard rules for having two close combat weapons...the rules for lightning claws for example don't say they get the +1 Attack bonus if you have two of them, but if you do have two, then you get the bonus.

Mahtamori wrote:It's pretty cut-and-dry. The text say "wielder of a pair has +1 attack". That's all.

Thats the point. The text says wielding falchions gives +1 attack. The rulebook states on top of that that wielding pairs of the same special close combat weapon confers an extra attack. Hence 2+ attacks.

Nothing prohibits the +2 attack summation----so I say yes, +2 attacks.

I also disagree that it will be FAQ'd to represent +1 attack. I don't know why they would point out 2 of one weapon gives you +1 attack when the rulebook already states as such----and an additional +1 attack would make the Falchions more unique.

+2 attacks raw.

I expect it to be faq'ed.

What exactly the faq will say is up in the air.

+2 attacks by RAW and RAI. The fluff makes it clear that Nemesis falchions are faster than ordinary weapons, so it makes sense that you would be able to attack more often with them than you would with an ordinary pair of weapons.

I think RAW it says that they only give +1A, not +2. Here's my reasoning:

The entry doesn't say that a pair of nemesis falchions GIVE +1A (implying it is given above and beyond whatever else), they say that models with a pair of them HAVE +1A, meaning the total amount of bonus attacks for wielding that equipment on top of your base from stat line is +1A. Bonus attacks from sources besides this particular piece of equipment do stack.

For 5/10 points they should give +2A though, and this should be FAQ'd.

I say RAW 2 attacks and RAI 2 attacks.


for an additional 5 points they better give +2 attacks

The BGB says on page 42 "two of the same special weapon, These models gain one additional attack. all of these attacks including the bonus attack, use the special weapons bonuses and penalties" The fact that the NFF are described as a pair would suggest that they are subject to this rule and to the bonus from the codex.

Lightening claws are a different thing as they state that only if there is another lighting claw do they grant +1 attack (for the rule stated above) same for power fists/claw/klaws and thunder hammers.

I had a look at the codex today and under the wargear section it pretty clearly says "A model armed with a pair of Falchions gets +1 attack". I couldn't find any reference ever at any part of the codex to a singular of Falchion. It seems like it's one weapon system that requires two hands to use.

Yeah it gives +2 intil FAQ comes out.

its the "pair of" part fault

Better wording should be

Nemesis Falchions
Gives +1 Attack.

The option for it would be replace X weapon with Nemesis Falchions.

They take two hands to use but count as one weapon for the purpose of bonus attacks.

So everyone who thinks it's 2 is also held to the idea that Chainsabers and Powerblades are also 2 attacks? It's worded the same, and those are only +1 attack.

It says :
'Nemisis falchions are invariably wielded as a pair'
So we know there are 2 of the same special CCW
It also says:
'The wielder of a pair of nemesis falchions has +1 attack'
So we know the weapons give +1 attack.

so we look at P.42 and "Two of the same special weapon: and we see that this model will gain an attack for wielding 2 of the same special weapon, and all of the attacks use the special weapons bonuses and penalties"

so +1 for nemisis rules, and +1 for 2 of the same Special weapon rules.

+2 total, seems clear to me.

Editing to add: If you look at the model, it has 2 swords on the model, look at the second group of images, its the model on the lower left.
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