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The few guard players that I've spoken with all say that the gunline is dead in the 5th edition. So I ask you guard playing Dakkites out there, is the gunline really dead or just being ignored for more "sexy" lists of vet in valk spam?

The Gunline isn't dead at all, it still works just fine. As it isn't the latest "net list" though, a lot of people have gotten into this "aircav, parking lot or go home!" mentality.

The second one. Guard gunline is hardly dead. Its probably the most effective list build you could make given the current meta (No valk/chimeras moving on up the board makes your opponents 500 pts invested in melta weapons pretty much irrelevant), and with the amount of long ranged s8/9 weapons the guard can field, they can open up enemy vehicles like canned tuna.

Gunline isn't dead, it just isn't very efficient anymore. What with cover being so good and 5th Edition having such a large emphasis on mobility, it's just not easy to claim objectives with foot squads.

HWT's also aren't the best, what with LD 7, but they are pretty much necessary.

I could see a list with static HWTs and Leman Russes providing support for a couple of powerblobs to claim objectves doing well. Creed would be a no-brainer.

Good points all.

odorofdeath wrote:Gunline isn't dead, it just isn't very efficient anymore. What with cover being so good and 5th Edition having such a large emphasis on mobility, it's just not easy to claim objectives with foot squads.

HWT's also aren't the best, what with LD 7, but they are pretty much necessary.

I could see a list with static HWTs and Leman Russes providing support for a couple of powerblobs to claim objectves doing well. Creed would be a no-brainer.

As would Kell, to give Ld10 orders to the HWTs.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Gunline isn't dead, it just isn't very efficient anymore. What with cover being so good and 5th Edition having such a large emphasis on mobility, it's just not easy to claim objectives with foot squads.

HWT's also aren't the best, what with LD 7, but they are pretty much necessary.

I could see a list with static HWTs and Leman Russes providing support for a couple of powerblobs to claim objectves doing well. Creed would be a no-brainer.

As would Kell, to give Ld10 orders to the HWTs.

yes, but the point cost would mean that the only time its worth investing in them is at 2000pts. They take up too many points at lower levels.

For the op:

Gunline isn't dead, its just less effective...;

I'm going to go against the grain and say that it is dead, with one exception: leafblower lists, and even then, that's at tournaments.

5th ed is a game of mobility, and any army that decides they're going to spend the vast majority of the game just sitting there (whether treads are involved or not) is going to have a very tough time of it. Plus, heavy weapons were made much worse once infantry started running, and giving 4+ cover to the guys behind them, and that's to say nothing of outflanking or deepstriking. Add to that how much more powerful close combat is, and the deal is really sealed.

5th ed killed the gunline, it's just taken some longer than others to see it.

Ailaros wrote:I'm going to go against the grain and say that it is dead, with one exception: leafblower lists, and even then, that's at tournaments.

5th ed is a game of mobility, and any army that decides they're going to spend the vast majority of the game just sitting there (whether treads are involved or not) is going to have a very tough time of it. Plus, heavy weapons were made much worse once infantry started running, and giving 4+ cover to the guys behind them, and that's to say nothing of outflanking or deepstriking. Add to that how much more powerful close combat is, and the deal is really sealed.

5th ed killed the gunline, it's just taken some longer than others to see it.

If your definition of gunline guard is a completely static force, then you're right. But thats not what a gunline has to be, with the ability to have combined platoons or whatever its called, etc. Guard are more than capable of leap-frogging up the board. Also remember that with first rank second rank, guard are about as lethal at 24" as they used to be at 12", and even more lethal at 12" than they ever were before.

The main problem with a gunline is that you need to be able to take objectives and get your opponent off his objectives with your army. A gunline is static and so does not take objectives well without losing its ability to shoot. It is also bad at getting your opponent off his objectives with the prevalence of cover in 5th edition because it lacks the proximity to engage in rapid fire/flamer shooting and has no assault.

Every army needs troops that can advance and do their thing, which gunline guard is not good at.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Ailaros wrote:I'm going to go against the grain and say that it is dead, with one exception: leafblower lists, and even then, that's at tournaments.

5th ed is a game of mobility, and any army that decides they're going to spend the vast majority of the game just sitting there (whether treads are involved or not) is going to have a very tough time of it. Plus, heavy weapons were made much worse once infantry started running, and giving 4+ cover to the guys behind them, and that's to say nothing of outflanking or deepstriking. Add to that how much more powerful close combat is, and the deal is really sealed.

5th ed killed the gunline, it's just taken some longer than others to see it.

If your definition of gunline guard is a completely static force, then you're right. But thats not what a gunline has to be, with the ability to have combined platoons or whatever its called, etc. Guard are more than capable of leap-frogging up the board. Also remember that with first rank second rank, guard are about as lethal at 24" as they used to be at 12", and even more lethal at 12" than they ever were before.

This is going to sound like a jab, but I don't think walking platoons up the field with lasguns and counting on orders to make them "lethal" is going to make a very effective gunline. I would love to be proven wrong on this.

I think it's possible to win with a gunline, but it's probably harder than it has to be. A board with an interesting amount of terrain is going to present a challenge every time. All it takes is one stupid ruin in the wrong place and the other guy can reach you without entering line of sight, even if most armies didn't have tricks to shut you down pretty hard anyway. Look at blood angels jump packers, space wolves with their thunderwolves and wolf scouts, scout speeders and drop pods are available to even regular marines. Tyranids have mycetic spores too (and ymgarl stealers, though few use them).

Don't even think about shooting at those cheating space goths either, their vehicles can all move 500" and assault in one turn. Or if they can't they'll at least drop some crap that instant-kills your HWS. Oh and there's objectives we need to take?

It depends on the definition of "gunline".

I envision the list as having 3-4 blobs running around and providing bubblewrap for the HWTs, Russes and Artillery. I would also have some Psyker Battle Squads, but that's just my prerogative.

Unfortunately, until tanks become crappy again and games cease to revolve around objectives, gunlines will continue to be outclassed by Mech IG lists.

It sure is "Alive" as can be. Gunlines don't have to start at the tabl's edge. People complain about objectives being to far off miss the part of trying to hunker down against a gunline. Most people will move up to engage your forces. Gunline armies also still have a fast attack section. But het if you wanna listen to the net, more power to you

Unfortunatly I agree with Ailaros. The game is moving faster and faster in terms of movement and gunlines work best when they can slow the enemy down long enough to cripple your opponant. To make up for the increased movement, guard got new artillery and some REALLY big guns. The problem is that some of these don't work very well. The idea of a pure gunline never performed before in my opinion. You still needed flexibility in terms of countercharge units and the odd transport to capture objectives. By the time you find the right balance your playing a hybrid gunline. This is a style which is still very much alive and probably better than ever. With the 'Bring it down' order the main fire base can eat mc's and vehicles for breakfast and the 'FRFSRF' you can put out even more lasgun shots. Thats without taking into consideration the line itself can be a counter charge, instead of taking a back-up unit by making power blobs. And then theres the big boys, the new tanks and artillery and piece such as master of ordnance. I don't think guard have ever have so much fire power. Manticore *drools*

Leaf blower lists just got more power to make up for the extra cover saves

Pure gunline got orders

Mech got cheaper chimeras and more new toys like the vendetta and other tank options

Hybrid lists got the lot.

I think it can still be effective but its has a lot of counter lists that really ignore it, that said, a pure gun line army is incredibly boring to play againist so I hope it is.

CCS, Missile Launcher: 65

PCS, 3x Melta: 60
21-man Power Blob, Commissar, 3x PW, 2x LasCannon: 205
21-man Power Blob, Commissar, 3x PW, 2x LasCannon: 205

PCS 3x Melta: 60
21-man Power Blob, Commissar, 3x PW, 2x ML: 195

Vendetta: 130
Vendetta: 130

2x Hydra: 150
2x Hydra: 150
2x Hydra: 150

1500 points

Gunline = Hydra Spam + power blobs for defense.

I only played one game with a variant this, but the Hydra firepower was pretty darn nice. I expect this has weaknesses, but it's still a fun list. Now just to find a cheaper way to make Hydras. . .

I made mine out of toy army tanks and random machine gun parts from my old GI Joe collection. Sounds stupid, but they actually look ok.

"Gunline" as in the static, pure shooty lists (whether IG, SM, or whatever) of 3rd ed and 4th ed is dead. Because we don't play for Victory Points anymore. So standing and shooting doesn't win you the game anymore. You must move.

One of the main reasons people hated gunlines back in the day (in WH & in 40k) is that they are static, and boring, and you just move toward them while they shoot you and you take models off the board. The game becomes a dice-rolling exercise of finding out whether enough guys survive to make it across the board to kill the gunline or not.

5th ed doesn't allow this exact kind of play, though a similar strategy can work. Quite a few good armies (particularly shooty vehicle-based, like razorspam and mech IG) are based around shooting the enemy to death, while having individually-disposable units. You just have to move them more nowadays than you used to, so they aren't a "gunline" in the sense of a line of shooters standing still and gunning down everything they see.

If the INTENDED question is whether a static shooty army still works, the answer is "sort of". If you can smash the enemy army so badly with shooting that he no longer has enough scoring or units left to contest your couple of scoring units moving out on Turn 4 or Turn 5 to hold the minimum necessary for the win, then yes it can work. But armies like that are somewhat uncommon, and somewhat dependent on lightly-terrained tables.

If the intended question is whether IG lists NOT built around Vets in Chimeras and in Vendettas can work, then the answer is a resounding "yes". Foot infantry horde is extremely strong. And mixed blobs/mech can be very good too. IG is a strong codex with several good builds in it. You just see the mech one all the time because it sets up and plays fast; thus making it easier to use at tournaments under time constraints.

It seems like a waste to put Heavy weapons in with blobs. By the time they reach their objective (and are able to remain unmoving so as to fire the HW) the game's almost over.

If you're using the blobs as a firebase (which is a valid use of them, imo) then why have power weapons in them?

Trying to make every IG unit "broad" just makes them "shallow".

Doctor Optimal wrote:It seems like a waste to put Heavy weapons in with blobs. By the time they reach their objective (and are able to remain unmoving so as to fire the HW) the game's almost over.

If you're using the blobs as a firebase (which is a valid use of them, imo) then why have power weapons in them?

Trying to make every IG unit "broad" just makes them "shallow".

That exact advice is what I usually give. That's why I made this list: to see if it could be done "right." (plus I think it's good practice to try to prove yourself wrong occasionally) With enough long-ranged power, you can out-shoot most anything so they have to close the distance to either assault or use short-ranged firepower. When that happens, you have assault blobs. Like I said, I'm not entirely convinced this is a perfect list, but it did pretty well in the game I played. Even terminators fell to the volume of Autocannon shots. Of course, they would have fallen to the assault blobs, too, so they didn't really have much of a chance. I'm just saying that crappy AutoCannon AP didn't hurt too much.

So I guess the answer to my original question would be, not dead but somewhat usless in the 5th. Now to throw a little more fat on the fire, what about advancing armour with leapfrogging platoons/squads?

ElCheezus wrote:

Doctor Optimal wrote:It seems like a waste to put Heavy weapons in with blobs. By the time they reach their objective (and are able to remain unmoving so as to fire the HW) the game's almost over.

If you're using the blobs as a firebase (which is a valid use of them, imo) then why have power weapons in them?

Trying to make every IG unit "broad" just makes them "shallow".

That exact advice is what I usually give. That's why I made this list: to see if it could be done "right." (plus I think it's good practice to try to prove yourself wrong occasionally) With enough long-ranged power, you can out-shoot most anything so they have to close the distance to either assault or use short-ranged firepower. When that happens, you have assault blobs. Like I said, I'm not entirely convinced this is a perfect list, but it did pretty well in the game I played.

"Proper" blobs should be 41. 31's okay in a pinch. 21's just not enough stamina. Otherwise your list looks decent. I think the Vendettas are a bit out of place.

Heavy weapons in blobs do fine. Depending on the matchup and the mission, you probably only need to move for maybe half the game, if that. Remember that with Run Run Run you can cover a good bit of ground in two turns. ~23" on average.

Deceiver wrote:Unfortunatly I agree with Ailaros. The game is moving faster and faster in terms of movement and gunlines work best when they can slow the enemy down long enough to cripple your opponant. To make up for the increased movement, guard got new artillery and some REALLY big guns. The problem is that some of these don't work very well. The idea of a pure gunline never performed before in my opinion. You still needed flexibility in terms of countercharge units and the odd transport to capture objectives. By the time you find the right balance your playing a hybrid gunline. This is a style which is still very much alive and probably better than ever. With the 'Bring it down' order the main fire base can eat mc's and vehicles for breakfast and the 'FRFSRF' you can put out even more lasgun shots. Thats without taking into consideration the line itself can be a counter charge, instead of taking a back-up unit by making power blobs. And then theres the big boys, the new tanks and artillery and piece such as master of ordnance. I don't think guard have ever have so much fire power. Manticore *drools*

Leaf blower lists just got more power to make up for the extra cover saves

Pure gunline got orders

Mech got cheaper chimeras and more new toys like the vendetta and other tank options

Hybrid lists got the lot.

This is spot on.....and with hybrid lists you get the "flavor" of gunlines yet have the shiny new toys to play the mobility game, which makes it a very powerful build...

Mannahnin wrote:"Proper" blobs should be 41. 31's okay in a pinch. 21's just not enough stamina. Otherwise your list looks decent. I think the Vendettas are a bit out of place.

Heavy weapons in blobs do fine. Depending on the matchup and the mission, you probably only need to move for maybe half the game, if that. Remember that with Run Run Run you can cover a good bit of ground in two turns. ~23" on average.

No need for list critique, I posted this a while ago. Mainly I post it as a semi-viable basis for a gunline list and as anecdotal evidence they don't auto-fail. I still wouldn't argue that they're great, though.

As for "proper" blob size, I've had plenty of success with 21, as has Ailaros. I go up to 42 occasionally if the opponent or situation calls for it, but the flexibility of being able to deploy as 2x 21 is worth the 45 points of Commissar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do think, though, that an IG gun line would need to be hybrid. The vehicles are better weapons platforms than HWSs, and you need blobs to deal with assaults.

ElCheezus wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:"Proper" blobs should be 41. 31's okay in a pinch. 21's just not enough stamina. Otherwise your list looks decent. I think the Vendettas are a bit out of place.

Heavy weapons in blobs do fine. Depending on the matchup and the mission, you probably only need to move for maybe half the game, if that. Remember that with Run Run Run you can cover a good bit of ground in two turns. ~23" on average.

No need for list critique, I posted this a while ago. Mainly I post it as a semi-viable basis for a gunline list and as anecdotal evidence they don't auto-fail. I still wouldn't argue that they're great, though.

As for "proper" blob size, I've had plenty of success with 21, as has Ailaros. I go up to 42 occasionally if the opponent or situation calls for it, but the flexibility of being able to deploy as 2x 21 is worth the 45 points of Commissar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do think, though, that an IG gun line would need to be hybrid. The vehicles are better weapons platforms than HWSs, and you need blobs to deal with assaults.

I've used a blob of 2 squads as part of Capt' AlR's outflanking platoon,and they have worked great. That entire platoon really hits hard when they come in, especially as the command squad is mounted and melta equipped, and I also bring in SWS as support..the blob often times assaults and finishes off the job...

I can tell you for sure that MY old IG gunline is dead.

It died when a fence gave your guys (Who can now, at minimum, run) a 33% chance to laugh at a battlecannon round to the face.
It died when my AV14 leman russ` effectively became an AV10 "Place krak grenade/chainfist here!" point sink on most tables/opponents I was then playing.
It died when I repeatedly got faced with how useless lasguns truly were in the face of abundant 4+ coversaves protecting horde infantry units (I'm looking at you poisongaunts and boyz.)...even en masse.
It died when my indirect fire ordnance got overly large minimum range bubbles, and the only one that even LOOKS appealing anymore not actually having a model (Colussus)
It died when I have to rapidly react to fast units contesting an objective, or getting TO the objective in one piece to begin with, and generally could not with foot infantry.


You can hybrid a gunline supporting a powerblob or mech/mechvets, but to go pure gunline IG is an exercise that will meet with success only if your opponent is going easy on you, or you REALLY got lucky on terrain. Or both. Don't bother.

You need to move. Either to minimize his cover, or to get the heck out of the way of what hes about to hit you with, and if your hardest hitting units depend on being able to sit in one place and fire? You are going to have a very bad day.

Ailaros wrote:I'm going to go against the grain and say that it is dead....

Okay, isn't seeing this in print like one of the signs of the end times?!?! i never thought you'd give up on gunline.

and i'm slowly, but not completely sold on Hybrid lists. when you add Boots, you loose part of your AV 12 wall.
i think it can be done, but i haven't found my comfort level.

Gunlines were probably the worst army in all of 40k in terms of sheer boredom. Thank god it is mostly dead.

Sure gun line armies are dead. This is why you never see anyone building armies centered around shooting, like Vendetta/Chimera spam or SW Razorspam or BA Predator/Razorspam or.......wait a minute.....


Gun line is alive and kicking, it's just mounted in an armor shell now. Army builds across the spectrum share certain characteristics;

Spamming transports/armor
Spamming long range weaponry
Having 1/2 single model units (Or maybe one hammer unit) that can handle most other units in HTH


BA---Mephiston----then Pred Variants and Razorbacks (common and I believe a similar build won the Nova)
SW---Wolf Lord on TWC w/ Wolves to soak St. 10 shots------then Razorspam and combi-melta gak (common and I believe also placed highly in Nova/Adepticon)
IG----Iron hand (sometimes)-----then Vendetta/Chimera spam


There are a few exceptions to this-----Orks, etc. It seems like Deathstar units just get c-blocked by vehicles now and fed MSU while the rest of the army withers.



I don't know what the fix is---other than making gun platform vehicles less available to small units (3 henchmen, 3 WG, etc). It's too late for that though---and considering the GK Dex is new----and I can see Coteaz henchmen Razor/Psy-Dread lists staring out of the book at me----they seem happy to continue it.

alarmingrick wrote:Okay, isn't seeing this in print like one of the signs of the end times?!?! i never thought you'd give up on gunline.

Heh, I think you're thinking of someone else.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Sure gun line armies are dead. This is why you never see anyone building armies centered around shooting, like Vendetta/Chimera spam or SW Razorspam or BA Predator/Razorspam or.......wait a minute.....

Right, that's why I said...

Ailaros wrote:that's at tournaments.

Tournaments have certain things that skew them towards certain types of army lists. In fact, it can skew things so badly, that a static gunline can actually be BETTER in a tournament, instead of a laughingstock. Thus why so many people bring them to them.

For the rest of us, though...