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Howdy all, I just wanted to share my findings with you all about how Grey Knight weapons stack up against each other. Seeing as we now have 4 weapon options, it might be a good idea to know what each one does compared to the other options.

First, the 'basic' Nemesis force sword. +1 to your invuln save, not too shabby.
Second, the classic Nemesis force Halberd. +2 Initiative, also not too shabby.
Third, the Daemonhammer, now unlocked for more than 1 in an army. Seeing as thunder hammers are good, and s8 kills walkers and vehicles, also not too shabby.
Finally, a pair of Nemesis force falchions. There is some confusion on these, if the +1 attack you get for having the falchions is the same +1 attack for having 2 weapons. For this discussion I will assume +2 attacks.

9 sword/halberd/hammer GK termies = 8 falchion termies, so that is the numbers we will work with.

9 sword versus 9 halberd, despite the halberd striking first the better save of the sword means that they end up killing each other just as fast. So this is a tie, with advantage going to the charger. In terms of balance this is perfect.
9 sword versus 9 hammer. 9 swords versus 9 hammer. Here the swords beat the hammer, as they strike first and are more resilient to the counter attack. In addition, hammerhand only benefits the swords, as the hammer already wounds on 2+. That said, without hammerhand on the swords and with the hammers charging they just barely cause more wounds even striking last, but still lose on the charge to hammer hand.
9 sword versus 8 falchions. The falchions win with +2 attacks, unless the swords charge. When the swords charge, they pull ahead just a little bit.

9 Halberds versus 9 hammers. Here the halberds increased init does not help compared to the standard sword. If neither side has the charge bonus, then the hammers out damage the halberds a little bit, making the hammers better. That said, the halberds on the charge still win, and halberds with hammerhand win.
9 Halberds versus 8 falchions. Here the increased init pays off well. The end result is roughly a tie to the halberds favor; the falchions do a little more damage per round but start with 1 less wound to begin with. Advantage to charger, and if the falchion player and the halberd player both get off hammerhand, the halberd by virtue of striking first wins.

9 hammers versus 8 falchions. Here, the extra damage from having +2 attacks means the hammers are in trouble. Also, like the swords and halberds, hammerhand doesnt benefit hammers versus falchions. Falchions beat hammers without needing hammerhand even when the hammer unit charges.

End results for troop termies!
Swords = Halberds
Swords > Hammers
Falchions > Swords, Hammers
Halberds > Falchions
Halberds with Hammerhand > Hammers
Hammers > Halberds/hammers/swords versus vehicles and t6+.

In future posts I will go over PAGK, purifiers, and paladins. Hope this helps!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, I forgot... comparing GK termie troops versus vanilla assault termies.

Only Falchions beat THSS termies in the long run, and even then only when charging with hammerhand active. Anthing else, like when neither side has the charge bonus, and the THSS just save too much with their 3++ and, with wounding on 2+ versus the knights do more damage then they take.

Versus lclaws, halberds just squeak ahead with hammerhand, unless the lclaws charge. Lclaws beat swords and falchions unless the swords/falchions have both hammerhand and the charge, at which point its about even.

So halberds > Lclaws
lclaws > swords/falchions
THSS > everything, though hammerhand falchions come close until you fail a test or roll perils.

nice findings.


it seems to reaffirm the designer intent that Falchions give +2A since with just +1 they would be kinda lame for the cost.

Honestly without the numbers, I couldn't care less. What were the enemy units, what toughness and WS did they have? Not helpful with how you have formatted it. How are we able to see HOW MUCH difference there is. Is it worth paying points for more attacks (a whole squad is expensive) for how much increase? What happens when you buy a brotherhood banner? At the cost of 5 falcions (and one guy giving up with weapon), it makes the whole squad +1 attack. 3 attack deamonhammers (4 on charge) is pretty potent. How about the utility of S10 weapons against walkers or other vehicles, not to mention instant squishing ICs without using force weapon power.


Its nice that you put a significant amount of effort into this post, but please, show your work so the data is useful.

They were hitting each other.


but if you insist on having other codexs be the foes then i'll run some calcs and get back here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 Strike squad PAGks vs 30 orks including a PK nob.
PAGK get 2 rounds of shooting with Stormbolters before charging in.
PAGK are armed with Swords.

1st round of shooting at assumed range of 12"-24"
20 stormbolter shots. approx 13 hits.
average 7 kills.
orks move up
PAGK move up into assault range and fire stormbolters.
7 more dead orks.
purifiers charge 16 orks.

10 PAGK. attempt to cast Hammerhand. roughly 86% chance of passing. 2.7% change of Perils and power passing. 2.7% chance of perils and not passing.

20 attacks against 16 remaining orks.
average 10 hits: average 7 wounds. 7 orks die.
Remaining orks and nob swing:
8 orks gets 24 attacks: 12 hits. average 6 wounds.
Nob swings with 2 PK attacks. 1 hit. 1 wound for 1 dead marine
6 wounds =2 dead PAGK plus the PK wound.
Gks killed 7, orks killed 3.

9 orks need 5 to pass Ld. 27% chance.
Halbards have same stat as the swords vs orks, but increase cost by 25%
Falchions will wipe the ork squad, but increase the cost of the PAGK by 50%


Terminators vs TH/SS terminators
5 Terminators with Swords vs 5 Hammer Terminators(will assume the stormbolter fire did nothing to the Th/SS terminators)
if GK terminators get the charge and hammer hand goes off(86% chance of passing, 2.7% chance perils with power going off, 2.7 chance of perils and no power)

15 attacks at I4: average 7 hits. 5 wounds with hammer hand.
average is 3 saved wounds from the SS. 2 Hammernators die.
3 Hammernators swing back:
6 attacks: 3 hits. 3 wounds. 1.5 Gk terminators pass their save.
Swords on average give the Gks a winning margin of 1 or a tie combat.

Halbards result in a slightly worse option for the GKs, but cost nothing.
15 attacks at I4: average 7 hits. 5 wounds with hammer hand.
average is 3 saved wounds from the SS. 2 Hammernators die.
3 hammernators swing back.
6 attacks: 3 hits. 3 wounds. 1 Gk terminator pass the save.
the combat is tied on average with the Gks having Halbards.

Falchions(increase squad cost by 12.5%)
25 attacks at I4: average 12 hits. 8 wounds with hammer hand.
on average: the SS save 5 wounds. 3 Hammernators die.
2 hammernators swing back.
4 attacks: 2 hits. 2 wounds. on average 1.3 Gks die.

on average, the Gks win by 2 with a small chance of only winning by 1.

I have to agree that its better to compare them againist out of codex options, also I think the thread name should have been different because its really the weapon options for termies.

Thanks for the read though

Grey Templar wrote:10 Strike squad PAGks vs 30 orks including a PK nob.
PAGK get 2 rounds of shooting with Stormbolters before charging in.
PAGK are armed with Swords.

1st round of shooting at assumed range of 12"-24"
20 stormbolter shots. approx 13 hits.
average 7 kills.
orks move up
PAGK move up into assault range and fire stormbolters.
7 more dead orks.
purifiers charge 16 orks.

10 PAGK. attempt to cast Hammerhand. roughly 86% chance of passing. 2.7% change of Perils and power passing. 2.7% chance of perils and not passing.

20 attacks against 16 remaining orks.
average 10 hits: average 7 wounds. 7 orks die.
Remaining orks and nob swing:
8 orks gets 24 attacks: 12 hits. average 6 wounds.
Nob swings with 2 PK attacks. 1 hit. 1 wound for 1 dead marine
6 wounds =2 dead PAGK plus the PK wound.
Gks killed 7, orks killed 3.

9 orks need 5 to pass Ld. 27% chance.
Halbards have same stat as the swords vs orks, but increase cost by 25%
Falchions will wipe the ork squad, but increase the cost of the PAGK by 50%

the orks dont shoot or have any chance of getting the charge?
it looks like you are assuming slugga boys but most orks like shoot boys these days. 30 orks get 60 shots, which of course after their BS2 wounding and power armor only amounts to 3 wounds but two rounds of that and your 10 GK are down to 4 models.

Its also pretty obvious that the orks are going to try and get a cover save, increasing their chances considerably.

I did assume sluggas, but against Shoota boyz I would be blocking their LoS with Rhinos and stuff.

All of the GK vs. GK matchups are wrong. Whoever gets the charge will win thanks to psyk-out grenades-- weapons are almost immaterial. To give you an indication of how important this is, a basic unit of Strike GK with no special melee equipment will beat a squad of Purifiers with full halberds if the Strike guys get the charge.

TY for the numbers Grey Templar.

While not a large enough sampling of units to make a complete analysis, it gives me (and hopefully others) enough info to consider what we would arm them with.

I'm inclined to go with swords on termies (with maybe a DH or two mixed in), and swords on PAGKs (with maybe a MC DH mixed in). Swords on termies give a better invul, and go before the most really nasty units (which usually have PF, TH, and PKs). Going faster with termies seems a bit meh. If you are assaulting units that are that nasty that go same time or faster than I4, perhaps you should use your purifiers instead. (those units tend to have worse saves than a 3+, so get messed up bad by the cleansing flame and halberds that purifiers are likely to have).

strike squads: swords - cheapest option, still effective
termies: swords - most effective free option, falcions give marginal performance upgrade
purifiers: halberds - theme of unit is killing enemy before they get to strike, and halberds aren't that expensive on these guys.

My personal inclination is that falchions aren't worth the cost, even if they do give +2 attacks. You don't actually need that much killing power against most troops, and against most elite units, the performance upgrade isn't great enough.

To answer a few questions:
First, I plan on doing all the grey knights, but the first post was already massive. A 3 page first post will be skipped by many I would think.

Second, I am comparing Grey Knights against each other, and against regular assault termies, to show the merits of each. I can throw in orks boyz, but really adding armies like guardians and guard wont show the difference of the grey knight wargear as much as how regular space marines beat GEQ.

Third, GK count as a single psyker. Psyk out grenades will only reduce the initiative of a SINGLE model in a GK unit. Just like if you perils a SINGLE model will take a wound. So GK charging GK will not make the charger auto win, but it does swing many of the combats.

Finally, about showing my work. I believe there are 2 kinds of people, those that will take my work at face value, and those that need to see the math to believe me. If you need to see the math, may I suggest open office's calc program? Or Heresy online's combat calc? Showing my work will inflate the size to unreadable blocks of text, so I made the decision to post the results. The data is pretty easy to replicate.

As a side note, when you demonstrate the math on the sword termies versus THSS termies, you show that on the charge the sword termies have a slight advantage. However, without the charge bonus, or with THSS charging, you will find the THSS termies have the advantage. I think its fair to consider both units charging, and a non charging situation. Otherwise, your data is overly skewed by the bonus attack the charging side gets.

From all the stuff I've been reading on the new GK, the falchions seem to be the least popular weapon to take but I really think that they are being overlooked.

I think they seem to be getting compared to lightning claws because they are taken as pairs but lightning claws generally compete with TH/SS on Terminators which isn't an issue for GK since they don't get storm shields. But they are not lightning claws and if you're fighting something that has less than I4, why not take them - they give you an extra attack - put them on purifiers and that's three attacks base - 4 if you charge and they're power weapons!

Even if you get into CC with an I4 opponent - say a marine squad charges you, they get two attacks each but so do you (more if it's a purifier). You get armour saves and they don't because you've got power weapons. A normal GK 5 man strike squad with falchions would get 10 attacks even if charged.

The sword only gives the extra invul on a terminator so I'd rarely take those with PAGK other than to avoid spending on weapons upgrades, which I would never really consider with this GK army anyway. Daemon Hammers and Halberds both have more specialist applications - the I6 from the Halberd you'd take if you know you're facing a lot of +4I opponents and the hammers can be used to pwn vehicles/walkers etc. Both the Hammers and Halberds will see some action in my force but they won't be the most numerous weapons because I don't think that their specialities will be called upon so often that my regular troops need to take loads of them but a smattering of them or small dedicated squads with them would definitely be useful.

So, that just leaves the falchions. At I4, it's not like marines suffer badly in CC to start with so the extra attacks will be really useful since more attacks equals more wounds. GK are obviously very elite but isn't one of the main strength of horde armies the sheer weight of attacks? Well, why not make the most of all those power weapons and make sure you can throw out as many attacks as possible? It would certainly help to offset the small number of troops you have.

DevianID wrote:Third, GK count as a single psyker. Psyk out grenades will only reduce the initiative of a SINGLE model in a GK unit. Just like if you perils a SINGLE model will take a wound. So GK charging GK will not make the charger auto win, but it does swing many of the combats.

Wrong.

There is absolutely nothing in the Brotherhood of Psykers entry that would mean that Psyk-Out Grenades don't affect the whole unit.

Brotherhood of Psykers wrote:Units of Grey Knights are psykers and use their mental might to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.

The first line of the rule kinda gives it away. Psyk-Out Grenades are not attacks that target psykers, so the second bullet point would not apply.

This entire thread is kinda silly, I think. Trying to compare such huge mixes of weapons against a variety of targets in different tactical situations is impossible. Mathammer only gets you so far, and in this particular case, that's not very far at all.

Fine, don't show your work. At least show your totals.

I will definitly be having a few Falchions on my Purifiers for the extra attacks.

My terminators would have all Swords in a perfet world with a few Deamonhammers in the mix, but i have to run a few with halbards because thats what i got.


as it is, my Purifiers will be running with mostly Halbards with a few Falchion guys for the extra attacks.

Ok all, time to start work on regular PAGK squads, be them troop, FA, or heavy. Like before, I want to compare point to point the GK weapon options against each other, and I will throw in Grey Hunters as the extra option, plus the assault termies from before. No need to go over the weapon options any more, we all should know what the do now.

So, finding a points neutral ground for all the close combat options, where we have 14 point models, 40 point models, and 20/25/30 point grey knights, I show 210 to be up there but within a few points of everyone.

So for 210, you get
10.5 regular PAGK
8.4 Halberd PAGK
7 Hammer/Falchion PAGK
15 Grey Hunters
5.25 termies. Meh kind of klunky with all the decimals, but its important that the squads cc options be equal points after all.

Results
With no charge swords beat halberds, even if halberds and swords both get hammerhand. Halberds need the charge or one way hammerhand to swing the difference in their favor.

Swords beat hammers pretty clearly, as even when the hammers charge and the swords dont cast hammerhand, they should win out. Extra wounds and swinging first.

Swords lose to falchions, but swords on the charge do beat falchions, so its not a total loss.

Halberds lose to falchions, but like swords on the charge still beat falchions. Halberds beat hammers unless hammerhand fails to go off and hammers charge...

Falchions beat hammers soundly.

Versus Grey Hunters;
Swords lose to Grey Hunters unless the swords both get the charge and have hammerhand. Halberds also lose to grey hunters unless they get both the charge and hammerhand off. Hammers cant beat Grey Hunters even on the charge thanks to no benefit from hammerhands. Falchions on the charge with hammerhand win combat and kill the grey hunters, BUT without both the charge and hammerhand grey hunters lose combat but win attrition. Thus, if they dont break, the Grey Hunters beat Falchions.

Versus Assault termies;
Swords need both hammerhand and the charge to beat lclaw termies or THSS termies.

Halberds always lose to THSS termies, and barely beat lclaws with hammerhand and no charger. They win on the charge though.

Hammers always lose to assault termies of either flavor.

Falchions beat lclaws if the lclaws dont charge and the falchions have hammerhand successful, and falchions win on the charge even without hammerhand. Falchions beat THSS with hammerhand being successful, even if the THSS charge. If hammerhand does not go off, or with perils, the THSS come out.

In summary:
On strike troop squads, Falchions > swords > halberds > hammers
However, with shooting the swords beat falchions, as they get 50% more shots and 50% more wounds. So swords can avoid combat in this situation and have the stormbolters make a big difference.

Versus Grey Hunters, Grey Hunters win versus all Grey Knight troops, unless the Grey Knights charge and cast hammerhand. Falchions do the best, but the over 2x bodies of the Grey Hunters makes a huge difference, more than the falchions can overcome. Greyhunters superior overall.

Versus assault termies, Swords only win on the charge with hammerhand. Halberds lose to THSS, but can beat LClaws on the charge. Hammers suck here. Falchions with hammerhand beat THSS termies and Lclaw termies, but dont fare well if charged or on a bad psychic check. Falchions superior most of the time, but besides falchions assault termies better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shealyr, read the Psyker Brotherhood again. The rule you quoted is used out of context.

"The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, with the following clarifications."
"If the grey knight unit suffers any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the justicar..."

Psyk-out grenades, "...psykers in the assaulted unit(s) are reduced to initiative 1 for the remainder of the phase."

Now, I see where you are coming from. However, a Grey Knight unit of 10 is a single psyker. The Psyk-out grenades only hit the single psyker. We are told that if you need to know who the 1 psyker is, then you hit the justicar, or a random model. If the 10 Grey Knights each counted as a psyker, then the unit would count as 10 Psykers. It does not. Psyk-out grenades only hit the psyker, and there is one psyker in a squad of Grey Knights.

You can argue that the grenade is not an attack, but it certainly is an offensive action, used in assault, that hurts a model in some way. That is an attack to me, and you really cant say that its not. Remember not all attacks cause wounds.

are you sure that fachions give +2 attacks? have all the calculation been made with that profile?

Serotol, I am not at all sure that falchions grant +2 attacks. Until there is an FAQ there is no clear answer. However, for purposes of this thread, I am using them at the +2 to determine what weapons are good. I know already, without needing to test, that with only +1 attack the falchions are very poor, worse than regular powerswords in pretty much every way, thanks to them being the most expensive weapon with the smallest benefit. So, no need to test that. With the +2 however, the increase cost comes with a substantial benefit, that my testing has shown makes them on par with some other options, but not always better.

they'd be awesome if they give +2 attacks, im a deamonhunter player (still not grey knights because i havent bought the codex, but i have read it) and in my opinion grey knights units can be armed to kill specific units easily, and if you know the army you are against, you'll probably win.
lets say against orks, you wont waste points on helberds, you will use the stave to avoid that nob with powerklaw, hammers, one or two, and if you have enought points falchions will be a must have. against eldar helberds will be very important in cc, and a stave to avoid exarchs I6 attack making wounds... and the list goes on but in tournaments will be harder to do a well balanced army.

sorry if i had any spelling mistake, english is my second laguage so be tolerant.

serotol wrote:are you sure that fachions give +2 attacks? have all the calculation been made with that profile?

all of the calcs on this thread are made assuming that Falchions do grant +2A.


with the +2A, Falchions are about as effective as the other options when weighed against different foes. Falchions are good against numerous foes, Halbards are good against high inititive enemies, swords are neutral except on terminators when they simply increase survivability.

Basically this.


against I3 or lower enemies, Halbards and Swords are identical to each other. Falchions give more attacks and are better, but cost points where Halbards are either free or really cheap.

against I4 enemies, Halbards are better as they can reduce the attacks you take. Falchions will net more kills overall.



When you analyze the weapon effectivness, Falchions really should give +2A. otherwise, they are overpriced junk.

u know that ward loves overpriced junk, but i agree with you they are rubbish if they only give +1 attack, and since it seems you have read the codex, can you tell me which units can deep strike? and if my hold army deep strikes, can it arrive on first turn?.

PD: i too played with the deamonhunters grey knights and i dont know what to do with so many helberds, any suggestions?

Terminators and Interceptor squads can Deep strike.

anything with a Personal Teliporter can Deep strike.

Stormravens can Deep strike.

thats about it.



no special rules for Deep Strike so everythig will arrive normally.


if you don't plan on using the halbards(they arn't bad) i would pop the arms off and put new ones on.

the PAGK box has millions of extra weapon arms(they mount at the wrist similer to Sanguinary guard)

you could sever the halbards off at the wrist and pop swords/Falchions on.

helberds arent bad but they are expensive on GKSS, and thanks for the advice.

DevianID wrote:
In summary:
On strike troop squads, Falchions > swords > halberds > hammers
However, with shooting the swords beat falchions, as they get 50% more shots and 50% more wounds. So swords can avoid combat in this situation and have the stormbolters make a big difference.

Wait what does this mean? Dont Falchions only replace the sword?

What he means is that Falchions reduce the number of bodies you can afford and so get less shots.

Ah right! Forgot about that.

Yeah, on Strike Squads 2 models with falchions are the same cost as 3 with swords. Those storm bolters do add up.

Also, you forgot that strike squads CAN deepstrike, not just their fast attack Interceptor brethren.

Grey Templar basically hit the nail on the head, though personally I am leaning towards all swords with a few hammers for vees and big targets. Halberds are not bad at all, but except for purfiers who get them for only 2 points PAGK lose too many bodies taking halberds. Termies I will most likely have a mix of weapons to abuse wound allocation honestly, though I have yet to see how Paladins rock out.

I suspect that Paladins, with their ws5, will like Falchions a lot more than the bonus to save or init 6, as 55 versus 60 points is almost negligible. Since they get either Hammerhand or Forceweapons, and most everything that is s8 or higher and thus threatens them with instant death, will strike at init 1, more attacks to stem instant death is nice. Also, on 5 models, a 25 point banner + 55 point termie gives you 4 extra attacks. Even the crappy falchions cost just 25 points for 5 extra attacks, meaning on even 10 man squads falchions trump the banner for adding pw attacks. Since you dont always need the banner for auto-forceweapon, especially versus THSS termies, falchions seem the way. Testing will determine this.

As an aside, I did not talk about interceptor squads yet. Interceptor jump packs cost 6 points, while assault marines get theirs for 2 points, and they also get an extra ccw. So, it seems Interceptors are paying 4 points per model minimum for that teleport shunt, with no increase to cc power. Besides a scout move shunt for a more guarenteed turn 1 assault (you dont have to shunt to t1 assault, it just helps) I dont think shunt is anywhere near 4 points per model on a non scoring unit. 10 interceptors cost 60 points more than 10 strikes, but for 60 points you get a rhino and 2 psycannons or 20 points in cc weapons. You can still deepstrike after all, regardless of having a rhino.

pretty cool!
didn't see it so ...
the +1 ini the sword gives is only applied if you already have an inv save :(

I'm going the all Hali route ... there will be some hammers of course but thats for tanks, MC, Walkers, etc.

ie: 7 interceptors w/ hali's / Justicar w/ MC Hammer
@ 10 I'll bump it up to 2 hammers

mainly because this (for now) is my only big stuff killing out side of single paladins w/ MC psy can + psy ammo

quietus, you arnt applying the +1 str psy ammo to your psy cannon are you?

As for your interceptors, like I mentioned I didnt do the math on them, as their jump pack cost really hurts that unit. So halberds may work for you, but I fear that regardless of what weapon you take the unit will be too expensive to get good returns on against other cc units (outside of turn 1 charges). I think my interceptors may be more daemonhammers than anything else, as hammers will wreck stationary vehicles and my interceptors are not at all planing on fighting fair against enemy infantry and winning.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, one other thing. Each psychic power you cast has a .055 chance of killing your PA justicar, or .05 putting a wound on your termie sarge. Thus, while I too love the idea of a MC Daemonhammer on the justicar, IF you perils you then lose your 2 attack MC Daemonhammer first. On the other hand, if you get charged by an opponent with psyk-out grenades, it reduces your justicar to init 1, BUT you already made him init 1 with the daemonhammer. Just some food for thought.

I see interceptors as being a sniping unit. Able to pick out just about any unit and killing it assuming it isn't a dedicated CC unit. Think picking out fire support units. Nobody likes their devastator type units taken out before they get to fire, and interceptors make it very difficult to protect them. Gear that I see for them: basic swords, and 1-3 hammers, depending on unit size and if you give the sarge one. Unlike other units, I think an incinerator might be called for with them. They skip the range bands where other fire options are used, and using a template weapon to smoke out lightly armored units could be worth the premium price you pay for them.

As for paladins, I don't plan on running them, even tough I see their potential. They just cost too much, and unlike nobs, the rest of the army is too elite to be dumping so many points into them.

agreed notabot187, getting the early jump on enemy shooty units (could be vehicles, could be lootas, could be longfangs, could be oblits, whatever) is where inteceptors shine, BUT it requires a GKGM to give them scouts. That is a pretty expensive setup, at 175 min for the GKGM and 130 for naked interceptors. Determining the worth of the alpha strike is tricky. If you kill 140 points of long fangs before they shoot, and are then cut down by more numerous grey hunters, did you get your points back? What about if you wreck 3 rhinos with your interceptor hammers before dying. Thats only 105 points, but you have a mobility advantage now.