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So during a game today, a friend had a unit of vets in cover. He had one with a plasma gun rapid fire and it "got hot". Does this model get a cover save from his own "gets hot"? The player tried to plead his case that if he's in area terrain, that he would. I disagree. What do you guys think?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

No. See page 31 of the rulebook under the heading Gets Hot!

'For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)'

The "normal saves apply" he tried saying that he would "normally" get a cover save for being in the area terrain. Part of me wanted to throw the BRB at him.

Normal saves in the case you're talking about would be armor saves, FNP, and invuls.

It's the same reason that I assume you wouldn't get a dodge save to your own gets hot.

People gotta learn to use common sense.

Well the plasmagun is, for all intents and purposes, shooting the wielder, and unless there's some sort of cover between the model holding the gun and the gun itself (that is over 2", as shots may be fired out of area terrain without giving the target a cover save if the distance between the shooter and the obstacle is less than 2") then he's got not going to get a cover save.

Although you could argue that he gets a cover save by throwing the plasmagun away and diving for cover, but it'd mean the plasmagun is lost for the rest of the battle; see if he still wants to make a fuss of it then.

People gotta learn to use common sense.

Common sense is very subjective...
Why do you have an armour save? Because you eat thrice the amount of plasma that the target faces from a normal shot when your weapon explodes?

A cover save can be, that you fall over an obstacle, drop the weapon which overheats on the floor and you dont get hurt...

Why do you have an armour save? Because you eat thrice the amount of plasma that the target faces from a normal shot when your weapon explodes?

The weapon does not explode, an action which would render it unusable and the rule will be called "Gets Blown Up".

Gets Hot! implies that the coils are simply starting to overheat and burning the wielder.

A cover save can be, that you fall over an obstacle, drop the weapon which overheats on the floor and you dont get hurt...

If you fall over an obstacle you have to make a dangerous terrain test, failing it means you impaled your face on a floor spike. You also drop the weapon, which slides and falls deep through a plasmagun-shaped hole in a large mound of rubble, rendering it unretrievable.

Thanks! I tried making a point to show him the pages and he still made a fuss. Anyway, atleast I know I'm not going completely nuts.

XxRVNGRDxX wrote:The "normal saves apply" he tried saying that he would "normally" get a cover save for being in the area terrain.

Get's Hot! doesn't disallow saves of any kind so ofc he gets a cover save.

The rules are already very much simplified and abstract. If an Ork can claim KFF cover saves there's no reason a marine can't claim area terrain cover saves - and both lose their cover saves against a template weapon.

IMHO, I still think that claiming a cover save from a weapon that your model is holding is BS. There is no cover between his gun and his hands. You can draw line of sight from the gun to the model's hands without any terrain in between. So you can't gain the cover save for that situation.

Try this, pour a bottle of acid out into your hands and run into a forest... I positive you will still be in pain while in the woods.

The Tsunami wrote:IMHO, I still think that claiming a cover save from a weapon that your model is holding is BS. There is no cover between his gun and his hands. You can draw line of sight from the gun to the model's hands without any terrain in between. So you can't gain the cover save for that situation.

Try this, pour a bottle of acid out into your hands and run into a forest... I positive you will still be in pain while in the woods.

40K is not real life, it doesn't matter what happens in the real world only what the rules say. It says all normal saves apply.
Does area terrain automatically grant a cover save to a unit that it touching it? Yes
Is a cover save a normal save? Yes
He gets a save, according to the rules.

Spetulhu wrote:Get's Hot! doesn't disallow saves of any kind so ofc he gets a cover save.

Sarcasm?

The rules are already very much simplified and abstract. If an Ork can claim KFF cover saves there's no reason a marine can't claim area terrain cover saves - and both lose their cover saves against a template weapon.

The KFF is just a cover save. I wouldn't allow an ork player the KFF save if he was trying to make a "gets hot" save. It makes no sense. Pick up a hot iron by its heated plate........its cool, i'll wait..........now try and use the terrain features around you to avoid the damage...did it work?

After spending time reading up on the relevant rules, I'd have to say that you would get a cover save in that situation from a gets hot. Since gets hot specifically says normal saves apply, a cover save is a normal type of save. Without Gets hot saying it ignores cover saves it doesn't deny them.

As for the examples given, you guys are using real world examples. We all know real world examples don't work in 40k. However here is a real world example of how this might work. Soldiers often brace weapons against whatever terrain can support them to give them a greater measure of stability when making long shots. With the cover save meaning that when the weapon heats up it is braced and it may only get hot on the portion of the weapon braced.

XxRVNGRDxX wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Get's Hot! doesn't disallow saves of any kind so ofc he gets a cover save.

Sarcasm?

The rules are already very much simplified and abstract. If an Ork can claim KFF cover saves there's no reason a marine can't claim area terrain cover saves - and both lose their cover saves against a template weapon.

The KFF is just a cover save. I wouldn't allow an ork player the KFF save if he was trying to make a "gets hot" save. It makes no sense. Pick up a hot iron by its heated plate........its cool, i'll wait..........now try and use the terrain features around you to avoid the damage...did it work?

Stop trying to compare things to real life, nothing in this game follows common sense.
"My squad shouldn't have to stay in CC with that dread, they can't hurt it"
"Why can't a squad stay in a wrecked tank for cover"
etc, etc, etc

When you try and bring real life thinking into a GAME it totally breaks down, you simply have to follow the rules. Which in this case he gets a save.

BRB pg 21 says under the heading WHEN ARE MODELS IN COVER?:
"When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover." So what you are saying is, the model can't see even see himself. Such ashame...Maybe he doesn't even exist.

BRB pg 22 says under the heading EXCEPTIONS:
"OWN UNIT - In the same way as they can trace LOS through members of their own squad, models can always shoot, and be shot at, through members of their own unit without confering or receiving a cover save." Is this model part of his unit, why yes he is! So he can shoot himself, and not give himself a cover save.

So thats two exceptions to the rules of cover saves. Then its followed up by a reasoning/exception on Area terrian. The BRB contradicts itself multiple times, and not just on this issue. We will just house rule it from here on out. Many people have been posed this quesiton. It's not necessarily as cut and dry as some of us think. Sorry for starting a little tif between dakkaites.

Cover saves can only be claimed against shooting attacks. Get's Hot! is not a shooting attack, hence no cover saves.

I would say he gets a cover save.Why ? because as the weapon heats up,the IG vet would drop the gun and put some distance between himself and it,he would not simply look at it as it glowed ever brighter in his hands.As has been stated,it ( Gets Hot ) allows normal saves,which cover is one.And you could tell him to find some points for the Grenadiers doctrine in any future lists,so his armour save would be the same as the area terrain cover save.

Redemption wrote:Cover saves can only be claimed against shooting attacks. Get's Hot! is not a shooting attack, hence no cover saves.

Cover saves can be taken against Spirit Leech, a non-shooting attack, so clearly they aren't only applicable to shooting attacks.

Avatar 720 wrote:No. See page 31 of the rulebook under the heading Gets Hot!

'For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound (normal saves apply)'

What constitutes "Normal Saves"? Under "Taking Saving Throws" on page 20 that includes Armour Saves, Invulnerable Saves and Cover Saves. On the next page, an exception for Cover Saves is "Inside Area Terrain" where, "Target models whose bases are at least partially inside area terrain are in cover, regardless of the direction the shot is coming from. This represents their increased chance of diving into or behind a piece of covering terrain." Regardless of direction.

XxRVNGRDxX wrote:BRB pg 21 says under the heading WHEN ARE MODELS IN COVER?:
"When any part of the target model's body is obscured from the point of view of the firer, the target model is in cover." So what you are saying is, the model can't see even see himself. Such ashame...Maybe he doesn't even exist.

BRB pg 22 says under the heading EXCEPTIONS:
"OWN UNIT - In the same way as they can trace LOS through members of their own squad, models can always shoot, and be shot at, through members of their own unit without confering or receiving a cover save." Is this model part of his unit, why yes he is! So he can shoot himself, and not give himself a cover save.

So thats two exceptions to the rules of cover saves. Then its followed up by a reasoning/exception on Area terrian. The BRB contradicts itself multiple times, and not just on this issue. We will just house rule it from here on out. Many people have been posed this quesiton. It's not necessarily as cut and dry as some of us think. Sorry for starting a little tif between dakkaites.

The "Own Unit" exception applies to instances where the squad is being fired upon or fired onto. The squad never grants itself a Cover Save. But that it's not the argument. The debate is the fact that the whole unit was in Area Terrain, thus gained the benefit of a Cover Save. You can't quote the wrong rules to make a case.


Warhammer 40,000 is not about how you interpret how a model will react or how they would act. It is all very clear in black & white. I suffer a wound, and a normal save applies. I have multiple saves. One is a 5+ Armor Save due to Flak armour, the other is a 3+ Cover Save due to being in Area Terrain (and Harker's Stealth). There is no restriction in "Gets Hot!" that denies me that Cover Save. If anything, the Exception for Area Terrain clearly states the model is diving or ducking behind cover.

I understand this is a game and so, we shouldn't look at this situation thinking of real life circumstances, but this seems ridiculous to me. I can't help but think of what would happen to me in real life if put into that scenario. I'd have horrible plasma scarring and burns from the plasma gun tucked up against my face and shoulder as I shot long distances not to mention my hands. I feel you need to take a more real life interpretation to this situation. I agree that these rules are not so black and white, as people are decreeing.

Another issue is, if the unit does suffer a death from this and makes the unit suffer 25% casualties, would they need to make a moral check? It is done in the shooting phase... Albeit their own phase. They did just see one of their brothers suffer tremendous wounds from his own gun. I personally wouldn't think they would have to because it wasn't a shooting attack. If they claimed that the "gets hot" is a shooting attack and they lose that model after claiming the cover save, then they should be required to take the moral test... But what do I know? I am thinking in real life circumstances.

Redemption wrote:Cover saves can only be claimed against shooting attacks. Get's Hot! is not a shooting attack, hence no cover saves.

+1 to this.

Maybe we are all wrong. Maybe, the Plasma gun grows an arm and pulls a knife on the wielder and stabs him whenever he rolls a one when firing. This would then be a close combat attack that auto hits. Since its a CC attack, he wouldn't get a cover save...

Just Kidding.

Would he get a cover save if he is firing out of a Chimera firing point? Allowing this opens up a whole can of worms.

Cover saves can be taken against Spirit Leech, a non-shooting attack, so clearly they aren't only applicable to shooting attacks.

Non shooting attack?

Spirit Leech: At the beginning of every Shooting phase, including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6"........

Bolding mine.

Seems like a ranged shot to me.
Really isnt CC now is it?

Cover requires a person to be shooting at you.

it's a subjective save where as Invulns, FnP, and Armor are not. you can always take these saves(except for weapons that specifically say they ignore them)

I was involved in a huge debate about this on another board, and I still totally disagree with getting the cover save, but the rules are just not clear enough on this, and GW hasn't FAQ'd it, so the best bet is to dice off/ask a judge/whatever.

Basically the argument is what constitutes a "normal save." I think a normal save is an armor save and only an armor save, while Invs specifically say they are allowed against all wounds.

Let me point out though, since this is the only point I could get people to give ground on, that cover saves against wounds require a model-model relationship (except cover saves granted by area terrain). Since a model wounded by Gets Hot! can't possibly draw LOS through an intervening model or piece of terrain, the only possible interpretation of the rules that would allow a model a CS against GH! wounds would be if they were in area terrain.

However, I would never take one, and would always fight every attempt to do it.

XxRVNGRDxX wrote:
The KFF is just a cover save. I wouldn't allow an ork player the KFF save if he was trying to make a "gets hot" save. It makes no sense. Pick up a hot iron by its heated plate........its cool, i'll wait..........now try and use the terrain features around you to avoid the damage...did it work?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

please read the tenants of YMDC specify number 3 and please stop breaking it. It's annoying

You get a cover save if your partially in area terrain period (pg 22 brb) with the except of CC attacks (pg 39 brb). At first i thought the "you can only take cover saves if it's a shooting attack" was correct but i cannot find any rules stating that so i'm going with...

Cover saves allowed (unless someone can point to a rule that stats they can't).

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Would he get a cover save if he is firing out of a Chimera firing point? Allowing this opens up a whole can of worms.

Being inside a vehicle is not the same as being inside area terrain.

Conceal and KFF will give cover saves, because they always do. Being in area terrain will because it doesn't matter where the attack is coming from when you're in area terrain.

Being near a wall won't help since the wall isn't between you and the gun.

wait a minute, are those arguing that you get a cover save, ALSO saying that when a transport explodes, leaving a crater (that grants a 4+ cover save) the unit that is deployed there, can use that 4+ cover save against the wounds from the explosion?

Boss GreenNutz wrote:Would he get a cover save if he is firing out of a Chimera firing point? Allowing this opens up a whole can of worms.

Since you can't shoot at units inside of vehicles, by that logic you couldn't be wounded by a GH! shot inside of a transport if we're treating it as a shooting attack. For that matter, if it was a "shooting wound" wouldn't its AP come into play?