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I don't think many people would argue that "Jaws of the World Wolf" is not only an imbalanced ability, but also broken in terms of the rules for using it. Even Space Wolf players know that JotWW is comprised of extremely well fermented curds. I have a few ideas on how one could houserule JotWW. I'd like opinions, and also I'm curious if any other game groups out there houserule it.

CURRENTLY: JotWW requires a psychic test. Upon success, the player can draw a 24" straight line which passes through terrain. Any model of the approved list (Infantry, Bikes, Monstrous Creatures, Cavalry) that the line pass through must take an initiative test, or be removed. The FAQ further stipulates that the Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model to be affected by JotWW.

I think there's 2 main reasons for JotWW being overpowered and having game breaking rules. One is that Games Workshop has in effect created a new type of template weapon akin to the flame template, but hasn't provided any new rules for it. The LoS issue had to be FAQed, but even then questions arise as to whether the power can be used against units in Assault, or if the Rune Priest can use it when he is locked in CC, etc. The other reason is that this power allows individual models to be targeted, autohit, and removed without taking wounds, with only an initiative test.

I have two ideas on how to re-write JotWW.

Rewrite 1: After drawing the line, the Rune Priest must make a normal Ballistic Skill roll to hit each model which is touching the line. Any model that is hit must make a successful Initiative roll or be removed from play. Monstrous Creatures and Bikes are added to the list of units not affected by this ability.

Rewrite 2: After drawing the line, all models touching the line automatically suffer a wound with no armor save allowed.

Rewrite 1 is to keep with the fluff of the ability. By making the Rune Priest roll to hit, it lessens the potential impact of the ability. The ability is still extremely powerful, allowing Independent Characters worth hundreds of points to be eliminated on the basis of 1 die roll. Certain races are still effectively immune (eldar) while others are extremely susceptible (Necrons, Orks, Tyranids) Disallowing Monstrous Creatures I believe simply makes sense. Monstrous Creatures are effectively the vehicles of the Tryanids. Why allow Monstrous Creatures, but not Walker Vehicles? Bikes make sense as well, to handle both Bikes and Jet Bikes.

Rewrite 2 would have to modify the fluff. Instead of a chasm opening, imagine spikes growing out of the earth, lava bursting from the ground, whatever you like. This version of the rewrite significantly nerfs the ability. It doesn't require a to-hit roll, but it causes wounds which allow for cover and invulnerable saves. Independent Characters and others can still be targeted, but they are allowed to take their saves now, which is much more game balancing. This rewrite allows for Monstrous Creatures and Bikes since these units suffering wounds I don't believe is nearly as imbalanced as simply removing them from play.

I don't know. I don't think it's overpowered. I faced it for the first time this tournament, and it did cost me the win, but that was my own fault really.

It's just another thing you need to think about, like blast templates and pie-plates. Just like you spread your models out when you face vindicators, you need to keep them out of lines when you're facing wolf priests.

It is strong that it allows for sniping of models, and I'd rather it didn't do that. But, it's really just another movement control tool.

Seconded. JotWW was another of the things everybody screamed about before it was released and now no-one seems to care too much. It's very powerful, no doubt, but LL is even more so.

It's not really a particularly unbalanced power IMHO. I'd argue the easiest way to sort it is to have it cause instant death rather than simply removing any model.

If the meta changes away from mechanised however, things might change in its balance.

If you play a fully Mech army, I can see how you wouldn't care too much about JotWW. I can also see how Living Lightning would be regarded as more powerful.

But simply put, Living Lightning at least plays by the rules. It has unlimited range, but it still requires LoS. It doesn't negate saves.

JotWW makes up a completely new mechanic, does it poorly, and can be used to snipe models worth hundreds of points based only on an Initiative test. In the case of Monstrous Creatures, most of them have a 67% chance of failing, and being removed from the game outright.

I can't think of any other weapon in the game that has such a high probability of success for eliminating such high cost models with only 1 shot. Old Zogwort's Squig Psychic power comes to might, but that power is ONLY useful against ICs, which makes it quite limited. It's success probability is also much more random, since it involves a roll-off.

An additional point about my Rewrite 2 idea would be that version of the rules might actually be more beneficial in that it would be useful against armies with naturally high Initiative.

Well, I would rather see Jet-bikes off of the affected list, just seems odd...our anti-grav engines just deactivated? WTF? And units with wings that MOVE AS JUMP INFANTRY, but are not jump infantry should also be unaffected, *looks at Daemon Prince with wings...*

Good point, I didn't think of that unit. That would also affect things like Harpies and Winged Hive Tyrants, and other units I expect.

Stranger still is how Karne the betrayer survives it, since he is immune to psychic attacks.

What? Does he hover above the hole with blood boots of floating +1?

It's a strange power that's for sure.
i think it's fine as it is. It's not really that OP.

Bonegrinder wrote:Stranger still is how Karne the betrayer survives it, since he is immune to psychic attacks.

What? Does he hover above the hole with blood boots of floating +1?

I imagine that Khorne warns him about the impending attack and he manages to move just in time.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Bonegrinder wrote:Stranger still is how Karne the betrayer survives it, since he is immune to psychic attacks.

What? Does he hover above the hole with blood boots of floating +1?

I imagine that Khorne warns him about the impending attack and he manages to move just in time.

I reckon it's more like the ground just doesn't split under his feet, but continues splitting before and after him.

Change it to a flamer template. Make it a strength 5 attack that rolls against initiative instead of toughness, make it cause only one wound. Causes instant death on units initiative 2 or lower.

I thought about making it a flame template. It certainly would simplify the rules a lot.

A Strength 5 attack versus a target's Initiative score would certainly be an interesting way of going about it. I think you'd need a rule in there to prevent instant death to Monstrous Creatures though.

However at this point I think we're talking about a psychic power that is so neutered nobody would use it.

Grey Knights already have a flamer-template version IIRC

Murrdox wrote:However at this point I think we're talking about a psychic power that is so neutered nobody would use it.

Exactly what I was thinking. Right now it's too good at killing Carnifexes, but most other units really have nothing to fear from it.

Right. This is sort of why I favor Rewrite #2.

You can still snipe individual models, but these models can make appropriate saves as if they'd been hit with a Power Weapon, which isn't really unreasonable, yet is still pretty powerful. It also makes the power more effective against Eldar and other high initiative models.

It's not as powerful as just letting you have a straight up 50% chance of removing a Warboss from play outright though, or a 67% chance of killing a Tervigon or Carnifex.

Still, allows you to target squad members with heavy weapons and Independent Characters, although only causing wounds.

Interesting. I had never thought that so many people will have thought JotWW not OP, still YMMV.

I would say it is overpowered, but perhaps not as much as some people may make out. I like remake 2. It's a good idea, and can easily be imagined as the rune priest trying to control and direct the fissure towards its targets. However i think the way to reduce the OP-ness of this power would simply be to reduce the legnth of the line to 12". That's significantly less and also means that your expensive ICs don't really need to avoid the rune priest, as if they have fleet they can hang outside range and then charge in.

The issue with the power is not so much its power but its flukey-ness. It either does absolutely nothing or wipes out a very expensive model in one roll. It also is very clunky and doesn't fit in with the core rules (although there's tons of that all throughout 40k). While gift of chaos is similar, it's limited to one model and a drastically shorter range. It also gets more difficult as the target gets bigger. It's a silly power that easily could've just been given a standard weapon profile but they decided to just make more arbitrary rules.

Murrdox wrote:I don't think many people would argue that "Jaws of the World Wolf" is not only an imbalanced ability, but also broken in terms of the rules for using it. Even Space Wolf players know that JotWW is comprised of extremely well fermented curds. I have a few ideas on how one could houserule JotWW. I'd like opinions, and also I'm curious if any other game groups out there houserule it.

OK

CURRENTLY: JotWW requires a psychic test. Upon success, the player can draw a 24" straight line which passes through terrain. Any model of the approved list (Infantry, Bikes, Monstrous Creatures, Cavalry) that the line pass through must take an initiative test, or be removed. The FAQ further stipulates that the Rune Priest must have line of sight to the first model to be affected by JotWW.

Correct

One is that Games Workshop has in effect created a new type of template weapon akin to the flame template, but hasn't provided any new rules for it. The LoS issue had to be FAQed, but even then questions arise as to whether the power can be used against units in Assault, or if the Rune Priest can use it when he is locked in CC, etc.

No it does not have to specifically say that It cannot hit guys in CC or if he can use it while he is in CC because it is a "Psychic Shooting attack" Read the rules on Psychic shooting attacks.

The other reason is that this power allows individual models to be targeted, autohit, and removed without taking wounds, with only an initiative test.

You do know that is the exact reason why Jotww was created right? I was reading on Force Weapons and stuff and the rune priests force weapon as well as chaos marines have a psychic power that
Also do the exact same thing to an individual model. Orks have something that everything in a blast radius is simply removed from the game without a test being done. Just roll Double 6 and that model and everything within 6" of it is removed.

Its a very well balanced power. The only things that suffer from it are Orks and low Intitiative guys. I seen a 10 man hit from marines and them only loosing a basic guy.
Remember its roll under Int. If the player keeps rolling low which is possible the power could easily end up useless and doing nothing an entire game.

Rewrite 1: After drawing the line, the Rune Priest must make a normal Ballistic Skill roll to hit each model which is touching the line. Any model that is hit must make a successful Initiative roll or be removed from play. Monstrous Creatures and Bikes are added to the list of units not affected by this ability.

hmmm.

Rewrite 2: After drawing the line, all models touching the line automatically suffer a wound with no armor save allowed.

This would do a lot more damage than balancing. Plus they get invunes.

Rewrite 1 is to keep with the fluff of the ability. By making the Rune Priest roll to hit, it lessens the potential impact of the ability. The ability is still extremely powerful, allowing Independent Characters worth hundreds of points to be eliminated on the basis of 1 die roll. Certain races are still effectively immune (eldar) while others are extremely susceptible (Necrons, Orks, Tyranids) Disallowing Monstrous Creatures I believe simply makes sense. Monstrous Creatures are effectively the vehicles of the Tryanids. Why allow Monstrous Creatures, but not Walker Vehicles? Bikes make sense as well, to handle both Bikes and Jet Bikes.

Vehicles do not have Initiative.

Rewrite 2 would have to modify the fluff. Instead of a chasm opening, imagine spikes growing out of the earth, lava bursting from the ground, whatever you like. This version of the rewrite significantly nerfs the ability. It doesn't require a to-hit roll, but it causes wounds which allow for cover and invulnerable saves. Independent Characters and others can still be targeted, but they are allowed to take their saves now, which is much more game balancing. This rewrite allows for Monstrous Creatures and Bikes since these units suffering wounds I don't believe is nearly as imbalanced as simply removing them from play.

re write fluff that may or may not be older than yourself? How DARE you good sir! HOW DARE YOU!?

Field Gen wrote:
You do know that is the exact reason why Jotww was created right? I was reading on Force Weapons and stuff and the rune priests force weapon as well as chaos marines have a psychic power that
Also do the exact same thing to an individual model. Orks have something that everything in a blast radius is simply removed from the game without a test being done. Just roll Double 6 and that model and everything within 6" of it is removed.

Its a very well balanced power. The only things that suffer from it are Orks and low Intitiative guys. I seen a 10 man hit from marines and them only loosing a basic guy.
Remember its roll under Int. If the player keeps rolling low which is possible the power could easily end up useless and doing nothing an entire game.

Well, as someone else suggested, with JotWW, your mileage may vary. If you play an all Mech army or Eldar, you're unlikely to be hurt by Jaws nearly as much as say, living lightning. However, I don't think it's balanced simply because it has the potential to affect some lists more than others.

Orks have the Shokk Attack gun boxcars result, yeah. It has a .03% chance of occurring, and even then you still have to roll to deviate the blast template. Old Zogwort has an IC targetting squig ability, but that ability also requires a roll-off so the probability of success is very random. Eldred has some IC targetting abilities, but he can only target one individual model. I don't have all the codexes in front of me, but I'm sure there's other examples out there too.

Another option I've thought of that I might be happier with is simply get rid of the initiative test. Make it a 3+ save that affects any model the same.

Field Gen wrote:
Its a very well balanced power. The only things that suffer from it are Orks and low Intitiative guys. I seen a 10 man hit from marines and them only loosing a basic guy.
Remember its roll under Int. If the player keeps rolling low which is possible the power could easily end up useless and doing nothing an entire game.

(I say this as a marine player BTW)

So just because something doesn't affect Space Marines or Eldar, it's "balanced" and shouldn't be touched? JotWW is one of the prime reasons that Tyranid players have been having such a rough edition! It effectively neuters boyz squads too, as the "hidden" power klaw isn't so hidden anymore. It's the same as unlimited range psychic hoods, versus some armies it's insanely OP, versus some it literally doesn't matter at all. Hence, it got nerfed, and the only remaining ones are in the DA and WH books.

what if was only usable once per game maybe? My issue is that it can be used every turn...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the power has ruined the day for my Carnifexes in the past.

Making the rule a once per game ability is an interesting idea... however I don't think it really solves many problems.

Your Carnifexes would still be devastated by it. A drop pod Space Wolf list could still drop 2 or more Rune Priests on you turn 1, and have plenty of chances to Alpha Strike all your Carnifexes or whatever off the board. Against huge units like that all it really takes is 1 shot to cripple your army.

It also doesn't solve the problem that it affects some armies worse than others.

I don't necessarily have an issue with an ability that is more effective on some armies than others per say, but when it's SO effective and basically nothing you can do to prevent it... yeah.

I definitely still think Jaws should be potent, just not overly powerful, and preferably without breaking so many game rules. I also think it would be BETTER if it affected different armies the same way, and wasn't overly powerful against Necrons, Tau, Orks, and Tyranids.

I've thought of a slight modification to my Rewrite 1. Potentially this makes the ability MORE powerful, but also makes it more random.

After drawing the line, the Rune Priest must make a normal Ballistic Skill roll to hit each model which is touching the line. For each model that is hit, the Rune Priest player and the player of the target each roll a die. If the Rune Priest player rolls higher, then the model falls into the abyss and is removed from play. In case of a tie, the defender wins. Monstrous Creatures and Bikes are added to the list of units not affected by this ability.

So, the probability of success is much more random, and the Rune Priest must hit the target first. This also makes the power just as effective against Eldar as it is against Orks. (Well, Eldar will still have anti-psychic abilities, but there you go) However, it will no longer be able to affect bikes, jetbikes, and monstrous creatures. So no eliminating Avatars or Carnifexes.

I sort of copied part of "Old Zogwort's" ability on this. I actually sort of think this works well. It's still a very powerful ability re-written this way, but it also seems much more fair.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Field Gen wrote:
Its a very well balanced power. The only things that suffer from it are Orks and low Intitiative guys. I seen a 10 man hit from marines and them only loosing a basic guy.
Remember its roll under Int. If the player keeps rolling low which is possible the power could easily end up useless and doing nothing an entire game.

(I say this as a marine player BTW)

So just because something doesn't affect Space Marines or Eldar, it's "balanced" and shouldn't be touched? JotWW is one of the prime reasons that Tyranid players have been having such a rough edition! It effectively neuters boyz squads too, as the "hidden" power klaw isn't so hidden anymore. It's the same as unlimited range psychic hoods, versus some armies it's insanely OP, versus some it literally doesn't matter at all. Hence, it got nerfed, and the only remaining ones are in the DA and WH books.

Jotww is powerful but not imbalanced. I get my ars handed to my with Nids. You just need to learn how to play better. By that I do not mean. Your a crappy player and need to learn how to play your army better. What I mean is that Every army in the game...as far as the ones that are currently updates. Is well good enough to easily beat that. Sure you will get hit by Jotww maybe once but There are ways around it.

The real thing you should do is find out what the Weaknesses in the SW army are and what the weakness of the Rune Priest are.
If I were fighting against nids. Jotww is a "Crappy" power to take because all its gonna do is take out maybe like 5-10 guys before you get into CC and tear me appart.

If I were you, I would be FAR more afraid of Monstrous Hurricane. In which it is possible to roll 3 box cars or just under it. Than get that many St 3 shots at you and even assaulting or moving what so ever. You still gotta roll dice for all your guys for dangerous and difficult terrain. For less mechanized lists like a lot of orks and Nids. Monsterous Hurricane is gonna ruin your day big time.

Living lightning is powerful and has unlimited range but that is nothing more than a str 7. It is also a straight line so anything that has a armor of 13 is gonna only get glanced and land raider or equivilant is gonna be just fine. Plus its a shooting attack so there is easily the chance of it getting low shots and missing all of them.

Fury of the wolf spirits....Well that one is just a fun power! Because than you get to imagine it going a lot like Blanca's soul comet from Shadow Hearts 2.

Field Gen wrote:
Fury of the wolf spirits....Well that one is just a fun power! Because than you get to imagine it going a lot like Blanca's soul comet from Shadow Hearts 2.

You get a gajillion bonus points for making a reference to Shadow Hearts 2

I'm not making this post just because I can't beat Jaws, and it's kicking my ass or anything. I've played against Space Wolves and I've won in spite of getting a hefty portion of World Wolf served to me. That said, I'm no expert in anti-space wolf tactics by far.

I've just also read several battle reports from other players who basically were completely crippled by this ability. I don't think that one ability should be able to win the game for you as easily as JotWW has the potential to do.

I mostly just think it's a poorly written ability and it's power level is completely out of wack with what other codexs get in terms of abilities that have the power to target individual models. I figured I'd try my hand at houseruling something more balanced, with help from people here.

Field Gen wrote: You do know that is the exact reason why Jotww was created right? I was reading on Force Weapons and stuff and the rune priests force weapon as well as chaos marines have a psychic power that
Also do the exact same thing to an individual model. Orks have something that everything in a blast radius is simply removed from the game without a test being done. Just roll Double 6 and that model and everything within 6" of it is removed.

Its a very well balanced power. The only things that suffer from it are Orks and low Intitiative guys. I seen a 10 man hit from marines and them only loosing a basic guy.
Remember its roll under Int. If the player keeps rolling low which is possible the power could easily end up useless and doing nothing an entire game.

You do realize that this orkish death machine you're talking about costs 60 points to put on one of the worst characters (without a KFF which he can't take if he takes this) in the codex and that if he rolls double 1's then he dies and almost any other doubles something bad happens to him. Plus, a 3% chance of getting this is a lot less than the (usually aprox.) 30% chance that JOTWW has. Just saying, the worst example I've ever seen.

Jaws shouldn't be removing models from the table and have the ability to snipe stuff. Thats just not right

If I were to re write the rules for that ability I'd use a rule similar to what is on the Eldar Night Spinner.

Space Wolf casts JAWS OF WOLFY WOLF, follow the rules already set for it, except

any unit that the line passes through counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain.

that way you still get the whole earth being sundered bit, and you aren't sniping off any individual models or anything. Its still appropriately brutal against things like orks, and swarmy nids, but its not one shoting their coolest models- which is just frustrating

I play Eldar by the way, Jaws doesn't bother me that much...

I’ve never been a fan of “remove model from play” mechanics. It’s basically lazy rule writing that works around the core mechanics of 40k. As far as I am concerned, the only way a model should be instantly killed is via the instant death rule or an attack double the model’s toughness.

I also think ICs should not have the potential to remove multiple models from play via a shooting attack without having to really work for it hard. Even Aramahn, who has the ability to cast Gift of Chaos 3 times a turn, only has a 6 inch range with the power and still requires a LOS. I also think that the fact that Space Wolves being able to equip 4 HQs has resulted in too much synergy with JOTWW. I reckon if JOTWW was limited to a SC, perhaps this thread wouldn’t have existed.

It is with these reasons that I have in favour of rewrite 2 although I second the suggestion of modifying its range to 12”. Sure it becomes more reliable and has the potential to do more damage; it lacks the ability to remove models absolute which is ideal. Essentially, rewrite 2 sees JOTWW reworked from an IC/MC/important model threat spell to a ranged attack that puts pressure on infantry units by stacking additional wounds. There are lot of armour ignoring psychic ranged attacks in 40k, and I think rewrite 2, with its 12 inch range and ability to ignore terrain fits quite nicely within the grand scheme of things. All in all, nice suggestion.

As a side note, good to see some nice posts in this thread rather than the usual spam posts I see regarding similar topics of “x ability is only overpowered if you are suck at 40k”.

akaean wrote:Jaws shouldn't be removing models from the table and have the ability to snipe stuff. Thats just not right
any unit that the line passes through counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain.p

So lets say that GW used your idea....So how about you re-write Monsterous hurricane because it became useless.

Field Gen wrote:Orks have something that everything in a blast radius is simply removed from the game without a test being done. Just roll Double 6 and that model and everything within 6" of it is removed.

To compare the Jaws of the Wolf with the SAG is not quite far due to the degree of likelihood of success; the likelihood of rolling double sixes is one in thirty-six; the likelihood of rolling to hit is one in three (poor Ork BS makes correction for BS small); the likelihood of having divined the correct target is beyond my skills.

JotWW isn't overpowered generally, but it is VERY overpowered in certain situations. I don't play Nids, but I feel it's shameful how much they can get rorted by it.

And it uses (created?) a mechanic that is anti-tactical because the space wolf player can easily initiate a situation where moments of huge importance come down to a single die roll (rather than who better uses the movement phases and knowledge of probabilities).

So obviously I like the second reformulation: Wounds without a save.

But I like the flamer template idea even better. Effectively being able to snipe in a rule-set that has no sniping as one of its foundations is really stupid.