Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As most of us know the chaos gods are only manifestations of emotion from the material universe. However this got me thinking, the only reason the chaos gods are "Evil" is because the universe is such a nasty place. It is also true that all of the chaos gods display "Good" aspects, which are just vastly outshone by their "Evil" characteristics (e.g Khorne also being the god of martial prowess and honour as well as all the rest). What if it where the other way around? What if the universe was a happy, non grim-dark (oh the horror!) place where everybody got on and was nice to each other with minimal fighting? Surely then the Chaos gods would be "Nice" and "Kind". So my question is: What do you think the chaos gods (and their warp realms) be like if their "good" qualities outshone their "bad"?

Actually, I think you hit it already. The chaos gods, as they already exist, encompass both good and bad. Slaanesh is the god of love, and of other powerful emotions like duty and respect. Slaanesh is interested in always increasing the power of said emotions to their maximum level. It is only considered "evil" from outside observers who choose to call it "evil".

The line between good lust and bad lust is arbitrarily drawn by humans. Slaanesh doesn't make such petty distinctions.

All the chaos gods are this way.

Nurgle would probably be less about the diseases and decay, and more of a benevolent nature god that spread green throughout the galaxy.

Slaneesh would be a deity of fertility, and frequently worshiped by all.

Tzeentch's underlying emotion is Hope. Of course in the current Warp that's twisted into Ambition and thus scheming.

In a "Good" warp he would be the god of Hope, Evolution, Creation, Improvement and of course, Magic.

Nurgle is also the god of decay. There is not enough respect given to the microorganisms, fungi, and scavengers that do an amazing job of keeping us from being neck high in our own excrement

Khorne is Honor and bravery but blood thirsty and destructive. Slaanesh is love and emotion but dark and seductive. Nurgle is life and joy but death and decay. Tzeentch is Change and ambition but deseptive and sinister.

Twinkle Starchild wrote:Nurgle is also the god of decay. There is not enough respect given to the microorganisms, fungi, and scavengers that do an amazing job of keeping us from being neck high in our own excrement

Thank Nurgle for for Nurgle!

Things would be just as bad, the gods would kill or convert anything does even the slightest thing bad. Pure good is as dangerous as pure evil, like yin and yang. The trick is to have balance instead of chaos.

I always considered Nurgle granting continuous life through rot and disease is a "good" concept eliminating the fear of Death.

The weird thing would be the concept of Malal: would he be a god of .... well what?

Every psychic race is attuned to the warp, some more so than others (Eldar). The emotions of the sentient races echo in the warp, changing its color. It is known that at one time the Warp was a grey. neutral place that was safe to travel through. The Chaos Gods were formed likely during times of great suffering, eg. Khorne formed during a time of great war and blood-shed, Nurgle during huge outbreaks of disease etc. If the principle of every emotion echoes in the warp applies to positive emotions too, then in a universe where such emotions were dominant, then most likely several 'good' Chaos Gods would from. In the 40k universe there are both negative and positive emotions but the negative ones are a lot more prevalent than the positive ones, hence why the Warp is a terrifying hostile place, and the Chaos Gods are evil. The positive emotions still echo in the Warp, but the universe is filled with so much suffering, they are dominated so have no effect.

There were, at one point, benevolent gods in the warp that the eldar worshipped. Some were killed at Slaneesh's birth, others were destroyed like Kaine, whilst others were captured. The Eldar god of healing is currently prisoner of Nurgle.

Son 0f Dorn wrote:There were, at one point, benevolent gods in the warp that the eldar worshipped. Some were killed at Slaneesh's birth, others were destroyed like Kaine, whilst others were captured. The Eldar god of healing is currently prisoner of Nurgle.

They were slightly different in that they were likely created by the Old Ones to combat the C'tan. There is proof in this due to the fact that Khaine battled and defeated the Nightbringer, who is a material creature. If they weren't created by the Old Ones they were probably Gods created specifically by the Eldar mirroring the Eldars various ideals made into God like entities due to the Eldars very strong connection with the Warp. Of the pantheon only 3 survived in various forms. Cegorach, the Harlequin God escaped Slannesh when he fled to the halfway realm of the Webway, implying that they had some material form as he is able to remain 'alive' in a material realm. Kaela Mensha Khaine battled and nearly defeated Slannesh. Khorne then battled Slannesh for the defeated Khaine. Khorne was victorious, whoever Khaine was driven from the Warp in the battle, breaking up during transition and ending up in the heart of each craftworld as the Avatar of Khaine. Isha also survived, being taken by Nurgle and placed in his 'garden'. She whispers cures to Nurgles various concoctions to the mortal races.
There is a fourth God that is partially formed, Ynnead, Eldar God of Death is said to be formed from the souls of Eldar within the Infinity Circuit and will come to be once all Eldar are dead. It is said that Ynnead will be able to finally destroy Slannesh and save the souls of all the Eldar.

But they are there, and aren't evil in the fullest sense of the term

An interesting point. In the Black Crusade roleplay by FFG, they have things like this. Maybe a worshipper of slaanesh would not necessarily be a chick-banging, coke-snorting decadent dude, but maybe a guy who seeks great martial prowess. A follow of Khorne may be a violent yet honorable warrior. A follow of Nurgle may be one who is nice and jolly like the Pappa himself.

Oh no, santa is Nurgle's current incarnation! My question is, what would the warp itself be like if this were to happen?

I'm pretty sure Isha is the closest thing we have to a benevolent god.

well, besides malal who attacks the other gods who attack people. I'd consider that benevolent in a round-about way.

"good" chaos gods?
Please, they don't call them CHAOS GODS for no good reason.
Now you people are going to tell me that Chaos are the "good guys"...again.....

Actually Chaos itself is not evil per say, its more like a force of nature fused with the more extreme aspects of the sentient psyche.
Chaos e.g Space Marines, Daemons are evil factions, but Chaos itself is a force which has no actual moral alignment.

I see the point about the *good* sides of chaos i.e. Khorne- honour, Slaanesh-pride, Tzeentch-ambition, Nurgle-joy, but
I think that this is largely overlooked.

Wolfie you have a point, they say that the most natural process is that of chaos and destruction, they say that the universe will kind of flatten so there will be the same amount of the same type of matter everywhere, in the future, in billions of billions of years.
But the thing is, even if there was a 'perfect world', in our minds, hatred and lust is dominant. When you hate, or like, somebody, that feeling is the only thing you recognize, for a second anyway, I read a WD article on it. I spose' if negative emotion was not dominant, although that goes against nature, 'good' beings would be the big guys.

Nurgle is only the god of death and decay if you only think about some species.

For every marine downed by plague, millions and millions of micro orginisms are givin life.

Nurgle is the God of Life.

Shikamaru nara wrote:Nurgle is only the god of death and decay if you only think about some species.

For every marine downed by plague, millions and millions of micro orginisms are given life.

Nurgle is the God of Life.

That's a cool way of looking at it actualy.

I always considered Nurgle as a god you turned to for resolve when in despair or out of fear of death.

Hence why his soldiers are silent, tough, and methodical marines.

So his good side would be the god of determination.

OrangePine wrote:I always considered Nurgle as a god you turned to for resolve when in despair or out of fear of death.

Hence why his soldiers are silent, tough, and methodical marines.

So his good side would be the god of determination.

The stalwert determination was around waaaay before nurgle. Those guys drank poison to celebrate... Read flight of the eisenstien. The Deathguard where always that way.

Shikamaru nara wrote:

The stalwert determination was around waaaay before nurgle. Those guys drank poison to celebrate... Read flight of the eisenstien. The Deathguard where always that way.

The Chaos gods rose alongside humanity and certainly existed before the Emperor created Mortarion.

OrangePine wrote:

Shikamaru nara wrote:

The stalwert determination was around waaaay before nurgle. Those guys drank poison to celebrate... Read flight of the eisenstien. The Deathguard where always that way.

The Chaos gods rose alongside humanity and certainly existed before the Emperor created Mortarion.

And in what part of the fluff is Nurgle's determination mentioned?

Cuz its written about the pre-heresy Death guard all over the place.

Shikamaru nara wrote:
And in what part of the fluff is Nurgle's determination mentioned?

Cuz its written about the pre-heresy Death guard all over the place.

It follows that the succor Nurgle offers his followers is the very determination that their fear of death sapped them of.

This is why it is so apropos that the most determined legion, the Death Guard, should be found wanting and then must rely on Nurgle's "benevolence".

I think really it's because later GW background has chosen to follow the Western-Christian centric tradition of all demons being inherently evil when writing about the entities in the warp. Most religions and shamanistic beliefs pre-dating Christianity, and found outside of the West, often acknowledge the existence of spirits which have characters and emotions as varied as our own. It's a shame in a way that the latter wasn't chosen instead, as it allowed for a lot larger element of 'grey' between the forces of Order (the Imperium) and those of disorder (Chaos), rather than somewhat two-dimensional conceptions of things being inherently 'good' or 'evil'.

We need to remember that the chaos gods are not the only warp entities, they are just the predominant ones, the orks and eldar have warp gods as well, each entity embodies a certain emotion or concept.

Gork and Mork: essentially envelop the eintire ork way of life, brutality and cunning

Khaine: God of war but in a different way then Khorne, Khaine embodies more of an honorable form of warfare, but he also is prone to fits of vengence and anger, in a way you might see him as a god of honor that is sometimes taken to far.

Isha: Goddess of life and healing

Asuryan: the Phoenix king, probably best considered the god of wisdom

Vaul: Smith god, would embody the desire to create and make real what is in your mind

Cegorach (The Laughing god): Obviously the god of joy

Lileth: The goddess of dreams, also could be considered the goddess of hope

The Crone goddess (can't remember her name): goddess of fate and death, I see her as embodying calm, the acceptance of your own fate and death.

Interesting thing I see is that some of the Eldar gods have obvious counterparts among the chaos gods, my theory is that others may emerge to balance out the others

Khaine = Khorne
Isha = Nurgle
Lileth = Tzeentch
Cegorach = Slannesh