Six dead in mall shooting

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**BrookM**

Edit.

Here's a better source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13024785

A gunman in the Netherlands killed five people and wounded 11 before taking his own life, officials say.

The killings took place at a busy shopping centre in the town of Alphen aan den Rijn, about 25km (15 miles) south-west of Amsterdam.

The mayor of the town said the man opened fire with an automatic weapon and then shot himself.

The gunman has not been formally identified and no explanation for the shooting has been reported.

Dutch media quoted witnesses who said the man had blond hair and was about 25 years old. He was described as wearing a leather jacket and camouflage pattern trousers.
Panic

Mayor Bas Eenhoorn called the incident "unprecedented" for the town of about 70,000 people.

He said four of the injured were in a critical condition and five had serious wounds.

"A man with an automatic weapon, whose identity we cannot reveal, started shooting and killed five people and then himself," the mayor said.

"It's hardly credible that our town could experience such slaughter, and on a day as beautiful as this," he said.

A shopkeeper in the Ridderhof centre said the gunman appeared to be shooting people at random.

"There was a panic in the mall, a lot of people running," the shopkeeper, Maart Verbeek, told Dutch broadcaster NOS.

"I see the attacker coming, walking, and I go inside the store... and I see him going by with a big machine gun."

A resident told the BBC the shooting was unusual, despite being the second in the area this month.

"It's weird that something like this has happened in this neighbourhood. Usually nothing ever happens here. But this is the second shooting in two weeks," said Thomas Aantjes.

Two people were killed on 2 April in a shooting in the same district of the town. Officials have not made a link between the two incidents.

Pardon the use of a tabloid as a source: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3518801/Six-dead-in-mall-shooting-horror.html

A CAMOUFLAGE-wearing gunman opened fire with an automatic weapon at a crowded shopping mall killing at least six people.

A further 11 were wounded in the attack in the Ridderhof mall in Alphen aan den Rijn near Amsterdam.

The gunman, who was among the dead, was said to have been shooting at random when he burst into the shopping centre.

Pet shop owner Maart Verbeek said: "There was a panic in the mall, a lot of people running.

"I see the attacker coming, walking, and I go inside the store.

"I see him going by with a big machine gun."

Hours after the shooting, residents continued to walk past the mall, some of whom appeared to be in a daze.

Project manager Rob Kuipers, 50, said: "You hear about this sort of thing happening at American schools and you think that's a long way away.

"Now it's happened here in the Netherlands."

Investigators were trying to work out the shooter's identity, Mayor Bas Eenhoorn said.

Eyewitnesses said he had long blond hair, appeared to be about 25 years old, and wore a leather jacket with camouflage pants.

Mr Eenhoorn added: "This is a disaster of unparalleled proportions.

"Under these circumstances, with many people shopping at the Ridderhof today, including parents with children, it's an incomprehensible situation."

All I can say is, what the feth.

**Khornholio**

Condolences to the families of the dead. A lot of people worldwide always think this is an American phenomenon (not me.jus' sayin'), but it's some kind of mental breakdown phenomenon.

**ShumaGorath**

Khornholio wrote:Condolences to the families of the dead. A lot of people worldwide always think this is an American phenomenon (not me.jus' sayin'), but it's some kind of mental breakdown phenomenon.

It's not a phenomenon at all. These things have happened for as long as there have been people. It's a tragedy every time regardless.

**Emperors Faithful**

ShumaGorath wrote:
Khornholio wrote:Condolences to the families of the dead. A lot of people worldwide always think this is an American phenomenon (not me.jus' sayin'), but it's some kind of mental breakdown phenomenon.

It's not a phenomenon at all. These things have happened for as long as there have been people. It's a tragedy every time regardless.

So are you saying it was just a bit harder with swords and muskets? I can't really recall any documented piece of history that recorded someone randomly going up and stabbing people in the marketplace.

As for public shootings being an American phenomenon, I don't really know anyone that holds that view. We've had this occur in Australia (Good ol' Tazzy, inbred maybe but we love you so!) and it's happened before in Europe as well.
However, as far as public schools are concerned, it's a little different. I can't recall any news reports of children being targetted in Europe or Oz. Though there was that shooting in Brazil last week.

EDIT: It was Brazil, yes?

**Corpsesarefun**

Thing is EF, if it wasn't for the mass media we wouldn't hear about these sorts of things so before we had said mass media it seemed like they didn't happen.

**Emperors Faithful**

corpsesarefun wrote:Thing is EF, if it wasn't for the mass media we wouldn't hear about these sorts of things so before we had said mass media it seemed like they didn't happen.

I'm pretty sure, with all the things they write down in the historical annals, they would have mentioned a maniac chopping up a marketplace somewhere.

**Khornholio**

I thought the term "Running Amok" was from the colonial days of Indonesia where someone would "run amok" with a machete and hack up people for whatever reason.

**Corpsesarefun**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
corpsesarefun wrote:Thing is EF, if it wasn't for the mass media we wouldn't hear about these sorts of things so before we had said mass media it seemed like they didn't happen.

I'm pretty sure, with all the things they write down in the historical annals, they would have mentioned a maniac chopping up a marketplace somewhere.

Yeah but it would be pretty rare.

Also I would love to read these omniscient historical annals of yours.

**ShumaGorath**

Emperors Faithful wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Khornholio wrote:Condolences to the families of the dead. A lot of people worldwide always think this is an American phenomenon (not me.jus' sayin'), but it's some kind of mental breakdown phenomenon.

It's not a phenomenon at all. These things have happened for as long as there have been people. It's a tragedy every time regardless.

So are you saying it was just a bit harder with swords and muskets? I can't really recall any documented piece of history that recorded someone randomly going up and stabbing people in the marketplace.

As for public shootings being an American phenomenon, I don't really know anyone that holds that view. We've had this occur in Australia (Good ol' Tazzy, inbred maybe but we love you so!) and it's happened before in Europe as well.
However, as far as public schools are concerned, it's a little different. I can't recall any news reports of children being targetted in Europe or Oz. Though there was that shooting in Brazil last week.

EDIT: It was Brazil, yes?

Ever read romeo and juliet?

**biccat**

Emperors Faithful wrote:I can't really recall any documented piece of history that recorded someone randomly going up and stabbing people in the marketplace.

OSAKA — Tomohiro Kato, who killed seven people in a bloody stabbing spree in Tokyo's neon-lit Akihabara electronics district almost three years ago, was sentenced to death on Thursday.

edit: note, the AP may not be a "documented piece of history", it was just the first on a google search for "stabbing spree."

**Emperors Faithful**

corpsesarefun wrote:Also I would love to read these omniscient historical annals of yours.

Hmmm?

ShumaGorath wrote:Ever read romeo and juliet?

There's a slight difference between family fueds that escalate into riots on the streets and someone gunning/chopping down random people in the makretplace for the heck of it.

biccat wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:I can't really recall any documented piece of history that recorded someone randomly going up and stabbing people in the marketplace.

OSAKA — Tomohiro Kato, who killed seven people in a bloody stabbing spree in Tokyo's neon-lit Akihabara electronics district almost three years ago, was sentenced to death on Thursday.

edit: note, the AP may not be a "documented piece of history", it was just the first on a google search for "stabbing spree."

Strange but, as you pointed out, the fact that it occured only three years ago doesn't really tell us whether this sort of thing is anymore common in the modern world than it was back then.

**ShumaGorath**

There's a slight difference between family fueds that escalate into riots on the streets and someone gunning/chopping down random people in the makretplace for the heck of it.

Is it a relevant difference? I hardly have the crime reports from antiquity (though im sure someone here does), but myth legend and known history recounts violent and deranged personalities regularly. As you said, it was probably much harder to go about being a psychopath when all you had was the same sword everyone else did, but that didn't stop people like jack the ripper. Hell, violent crime rates in the american wild west were ludicrously high and many forms of violent psychopathy were fully endorsed in societies like the aztecs. The shooting spree is a uniquely modern feature, but killing sprees have been recorded since recording began.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

corpsesarefun wrote:Thing is EF, if it wasn't for the mass media we wouldn't hear about these sorts of things so before we had said mass media it seemed like they didn't happen.

Show me were it happened in say 1968 or even 1978
Mass media was around then.
Stand to be corrected. But don't have any recall of this sort of event until 1986

Thankfully in comparison this is a minor meltdown. Not that that is any consolation to the 6 families of those that died, and one's heart goes out to them.

**ShumaGorath**

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_before_1900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims#Mass_murders

You should really try harder.

**helgrenze**

Hmm...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You want outside the US or just any such incident?

Try the University of Texas 1966 for a search....

**Emperors Faithful**

ShumaGorath wrote:
There's a slight difference between family fueds that escalate into riots on the streets and someone gunning/chopping down random people in the makretplace for the heck of it.

Is it a relevant difference? I hardly have the crime reports from antiquity (though im sure someone here does),

I studied the era of crime in Medieval Italy, but that's really about it. And do you really think there's no difference between killing sprees and family fueds?

but myth legend and known history recounts violent and deranged personalities regularly. As you said, it was probably much harder to go about being a psychopath when all you had was the same sword everyone else did, but that didn't stop people like jack the ripper. Hell, violent crime rates in the american wild west were ludicrously high and many forms of violent psychopathy were fully endorsed in societies like the aztecs. The shooting spree is a uniquely modern feature, but killing sprees have been recorded since recording began.

Jack the Ripper was around during the Victorian era.
And you seem to be failing to realise the difference between killing sprees and serial killers.

Furthermore, the Aztecs practices human sacrifice. As barbaric as that is, I don't understand why you believe that means Aztec society fully endorsed psychopathic tendencies.

ShumaGorath wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_before_1900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims#Mass_murders

You should really try harder.

Again, you've gotten serial killers and people that go on a killing spree mixed up. Serial killers are very often in a position of power, and often go to great lengths to avoid getting caught. People that go on killing sprees tend to either not care or intend to kill themselves before capture anyway.

The second link you provided was more useful, and proves that killing sprees are not an American phenomenon. However, I am disturbed to see that virtually all the attacks on schools occured in the US. What's going on over there that crazy people turn their anger on the education system?

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

ShumaGorath wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_before_1900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims#Mass_murders

You should really try harder.

You should try being less snotty
I said I stood to be corrected.
It is 03:51 hours here and am only awake cos the cat is being a pain in the buttocks and don't feel inclined to be googling.

**Emperors Faithful**

Ah, okay, more info on school massacres here. The pattern is still disturbing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims#School_massacres

**ShumaGorath**

I studied the era of crime in Medieval Italy, but that's really about it. And do you really think there's no difference between killing sprees and family fueds?

I think one tends to mask the other, especially in antiquity where it was physically difficult to go one killing sprees and be successful about it (outside of arson, which was common). There is also quite a bit masking motives when you consider the way mental illness was thought of even one hundred years ago.

Again, you've gotten serial killers and people that go on a killing spree mixed up. Serial killers are very often in a position of power, and often go to great lengths to avoid getting caught. People that go on killing sprees tend to either not care or intend to kill themselves before capture anyway.

They also almost always utilize explosives or guns (though one of the examples I gave showed a japanese dude that killed 30 people with a shotgun and sword). I'm convinved there could be examples of killing sprees utilizing weapons of the day. They would likely be short and misunderstood though. Often times they would probably be thought of as monsters or the possessed in legend. Anyone familiar with romance era crime reports? They kept good logs.

The second link you provided was more useful, and proves that killing sprees are not an American phenomenon. However, I am disturbed to see that virtually all the attacks on schools occured in the US. What's going on over there that crazy people turn their anger on the education system?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7710196/China-suffers-eighth-child-stabbing-attack-in-a-month.html

Nothing special.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serial_killers_before_1900
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_murderers_and_spree_killers_by_number_of_victims#Mass_murders

You should really try harder.

You should try being less snotty
I said I stood to be corrected.
It is 03:51 hours here and am only awake cos the cat is being a pain in the buttocks and don't feel inclined to be googling.

I said to try harder. You say you didn't want to try harder because it's late. That doesn't really invalidate what I posted. Fifteen seconds of cursory googling (all links were on the same page) would of gotten you there. Don't make unsupported suppositions begging the question when you don't even have anecdotal evidence and haven't tried to look it up.

**Footsloggin**

No, Emperors Faithful, the school shootings thing here in the U.S. is due to the sheer amount of people who make others feel worthless, or wrong them greatly. Then they come in with a gun and just start shooting.

Remember that one kid? You remember, the one who everone said nobody liked, and a lot of people made fun of? Well, here in America, with the accessability to arms weapons, leads to a child just grabbing the gun they have in their garage and unloading a magazine or two into the people who wronged them. It really is just a matter of impulse more often than not. Which is why many schools in the U.S. are now having state troopers in them.

**Emperors Faithful**

ShumaGorath wrote:
They also almost always utilize explosives or guns (though one of the examples I gave showed a japanese dude that killed 30 people with a shotgun and sword). I'm convinved there could be examples of killing sprees utilizing weapons of the day. They would likely be short and misunderstood though. Often times they would probably be thought of as monsters or the possessed in legend. Anyone familiar with romance era crime reports? They kept good logs.

So you agree with me then that modern weaponry has made killing sprees easier to perpetrate?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/7710196/China-suffers-eighth-child-stabbing-attack-in-a-month.html

Nothing special.

You'll notice that US attacks tend to have more fatalities. Probably becuase it's easier to kill people with guns than knives.

**ShumaGorath**

So you agree with me then that modern weaponry has made killing sprees easier to perpetrate?

Oh definitely. I never intended to make it seem like I didn't. The entire point of the serial killer examples and the examples of institutionalized violent psychosis were to illustrate that the mental issues that would lead to such things were far from uncommon previously and that while going postal may seem like a modern affliction it's simply the same violent expression seen throughout history with a more modern set of tools (guns, the media, and larger populations).

You'll notice that US attacks tend to have more fatalities. Probably becuase it's easier to kill people with guns than knives.

It's easiest to kill with explosives or gas, really. Both of which have historical precedent (guy fawkes for example). Bullets are certainly better for racking up high numbers when compared with knives though.

**Emperors Faithful**

ShumaGorath wrote:
So you agree with me then that modern weaponry has made killing sprees easier to perpetrate?

Oh definitely. I never intended to make it seem like I didn't. The entire point of the serial killer examples and the examples of institutionalized violent psychosis were to illustrate that the mental issues that would lead to such things were far from uncommon previously and that while going postal may seem like a modern affliction it's simply the same violent expression seen throughout history with a more modern set of tools (guns, the media, and larger populations).

I think it also has to do with the idea of equality, or at least the less obvious lines between class and how each should behave/be treated. After all if the Master got into a bit of a rage who cared if a slave or two (or a dozen as one insane Roman Senator did) were beaten to death?

However if your average pleb did that in the marketplace then he'd be cut down pretty quickly. Soceity didn't tolerate that sort of rubbish from the have-nots.

When crazy people have guns though the story changes.

I disagree with your idea on institutionalized violent psychosis there (reffering to the Aztecs, yes?). I think that's a seperate issue far removed from the current occurences here.

**ShumaGorath**

I disagree with your idea on institutionalized violent psychosis there (reffering to the Aztecs, yes?). I think that's a seperate issue far removed from the current occurences

Perhaps. It would also make such events harder to pick out from other storied myths from such times however. Finding the crime rates or types in medieval india is practically impossible as it is. let alone given the caste struggle, honor killings, and ethnic strife.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Why are you so confrontational Shuma.
Where did I say your post was invalidated
What I was objecting to was your attitude, not the content of your post.

There was absolutely no reason to add that last comment which turned a perfectly fine post into petty point scoring oneupmanship.
It was unecessary, especially on a thread discussing the deaths of 6 people.

So as not to risk derailing the thread further I shall, sadly, withdraw.

Apologies to the OP.

**ShumaGorath**

Why are you so confrontational Shuma.
Where did I say your post was invalidated
What I was objecting to was your attitude, not the content of your post.

The attitude was my post. People who don't research their opinions or thoughts have been getting under my collar recently.

There was absolutely no reason to add that last comment which turned a perfectly fine post into petty point scoring oneupmanship.
It was unecessary, especially on a thread discussing the deaths of 6 people.

I don't think positing an un researched and illogical position on the mental sickness of my country was any more "needed", and this thread is loaded with that. It's something you participated in by agreeing.

**Chibi Bodge-Battle**

Sorry
I just caught my quote as I scrolled over.

You are way off beam old sport and vastly overstating things
I offered an opinion, which it was clear was merely that.
"I stand to be corrected"
you corrected, That was sufficient.

It was not based soley on my memories of reported spree killings in America alone, but also of incidents in the UK. I was not attacking American culture, or is the USA the only Western society to have mass media?

I was not agreeing or disagreeing, but simply responding, in good faith, to a comment that was made, not writing a doctoral thesis. Sorry, I was unaware of the necessity of a PhD in criminal psychology to participate in the discussion.
My apologies for being so inadequately qualified.
Please read and take note of the the following:
So as not to risk derailing the thread further I shall, sadly, withdraw because I do not possess post graduate qualifications in social sciences.

Again, apologies to the OP .

**Stormrider**

I would postulate that the perp acquired the gun illegally.

**Sir Pseudonymous**

Footsloggin wrote:No, Emperors Faithful, the school shootings thing here in the U.S. is due to the sheer amount of people who make others feel worthless, or wrong them greatly. Then they come in with a gun and just start shooting.

Remember that one kid? You remember, the one who everone said nobody liked, and a lot of people made fun of? Well, here in America, with the accessability to arms weapons, leads to a child just grabbing the gun they have in their garage and unloading a magazine or two into the people who wronged them. It really is just a matter of impulse more often than not. Which is why many schools in the U.S. are now having state troopers in them.

That's entirely a myth. Originally sane individuals who end up ostracized don't go out and start shooting, they conform to the standards set by some available social group, and/or develop minor, self-destructive tendencies. People who don't function correctly to start with ostracize themselves (or don't, as the case may be), become even more insane (or don't, as the case may be), and then go out and start shooting (or don't, as the case may be). Occasionally. Usually they just fall into the same pattern as the "sane but ostracized for non-mental-health related things" ones. Which really probably also applies to people who aren't ostracized in the first place, mental problems or no. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it requires both a violent psychopath (whether or not it visibly manifests in any way prior to snapping) and what amounts to pure chance, since most of those don't go on killing sprees either, instead being relegated to a moderately higher likelihood of being generic criminals.

**shingouki**

i guess that the flgs had ran out of grey knight terminators aaarrrggghhhhhh.
seriously though thats bad news and i offer my condolences to all concerned.