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A friend whom has been playing since RT told me a very interesting story about how the Great secret that Dark Angels have and the reason why they will just up and completely leave a battle for no apparent reason is that they secretly follow chaos. No perticular Chaos god. Just chaos.

If I recall what he said, He told me that the chapter was split in half at one point between those who still wanted to serve the emperor etc and the others. The others won and than pretended they were followers of the emperor and they will leave a battle field if even a rumor that a person from the old chapter is still alive. (because they believe there are some out there.) is somewhere in the general area so they will go and leave to find them and kill them.

He also said that the reason that they don't get along with Space wolves is because...."they know". Or more specifically. Leman Russ knows and there could be a chance a few of the wolves know but just are not talking ATM right now.

Is this true? What do you think would happen if the inquisitors found out?

While my knowladge of the fluff is somewhat limited I still feel confident in saying that you're friend was talking out of his .

Or at least twisting the fluff to suit his own theory.

He has it backwards. The ones that 'turned' to chaos were the ones who were beaten and hurled across time and space. The rest of the DA continue to fight for the emperor but the first company, the death wing, is the only one that knows of the traitors and actively hunts them down to their deaths.

What's more, the more recent fluff makes it seem less like "The Fallen had been knowing servants of Chaos" and more like "unwitting pawns of Chaos, who once they failed in their purpose were discarded like broken toys".

hmm..interesting.

Your friend has it completely wrong as others have already said. Not even every DA knows about their traitor brethren. Plus, none of the what I've read supports that theory at all, even Gav's book (Angel of Darkness) in which it is revealed that the Dark Angels may have been waiting to see who won during the Siege of Terra wouldn't reflect the current Chapter who are always portrayed as loyal, even though the Deathwing themselves may be so driven to erase the stain on their Chapter that they set all else aside.

But wouldn't it be all grim-dark if the Fallen were actually the Loyalists and the Dark Angels were the traitors?

After all we have Cypher running around using his agitator status to cause trouble, but inevitably strengthening the IoM before a big attack by Chaos...and there is the whole part where he is slowly coming to Terra for reasons unknown, possibly to kill/raise the Emperor.

I am no saying that every Dark Angel might be dedicated to Chaos, only that it is a possibility that the inner circles may be. And they do hang around those weird xeno Watchers in the Dark...

the Fallen were simply pawns of Chaos.

the DAs hunt them down because they are the only ones who know about the schisim within the chapter(and the possability of Johnson just waiting to see who won the battle of terra) and so they hunt them so the DA don't get belatedly(and unjustly) declared Excommunicate Tratiorious

That and the reason for all the dresses

They are not dresses they are robes.

I think they look cool so THERE!

So than what is the giant Secret the DA have that no one knows about? It cannot be their primarch or anything otherwise they would just be secretive about a room no one is allowed to enter.

Green
The Green Space Marines have a terrible, dark secret that I'm not going to tell you. Because it's terrible. And dark. And SECRET. You see this one time the Emperor and the Boss Green Space Marine were in Tiajuana and they were doing tequila shots and the next thing you know? WAIT! You almost tricked me into telling the Dark Terrible Secret! Let's just say that the Boss Green Space Marines like to wear dresses and hang out with midgets. And the Big Green Space Marines likes to wear feathers. Then there's the naked water polo. OK. That's all I'm saying. You can draw your own conclusions.

Vain wrote:But wouldn't it be all grim-dark if the Fallen were actually the Loyalists and the Dark Angels were the traitors?

After all we have Cypher running around using his agitator status to cause trouble, but inevitably strengthening the IoM before a big attack by Chaos...and there is the whole part where he is slowly coming to Terra for reasons unknown, possibly to kill/raise the Emperor.

Considering that Cypher was the architect of Luthor declaring Caliban free of the Imperium, it's entirely likely that he's 'seen' the past, present, and future and is playing his role to perfection.

I am not saying that every Dark Angel might be dedicated to Chaos, only that it is a possibility that the inner circles may be.

Which would mean that they all are.
The Dark Angels, as a whole, are not 'dedicated to Chaos' in any way, shape, or form.

Some of the Fallen, however, have thrown their lot in with the Ruinous Powers and their followers. That's not necessarily the same thing however.

And they do hang around those weird xeno Watchers in the Dark...

We don't actually 'know' that the Watchers in the Dark are Xenos. The description of them in Descent of Angels is very vague, with them simply being highly psychic and very much a part of Caliban itself.


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Grey Templar wrote:
and the possibility of Jonson just waiting to see who won the Battle of Terra

I've always had a good little theory to counter that idea.

It's always been plausible that "Jonson may have waited to see who won the Battle of Terra"...so that he could know if his forces were actually needed or not.
His forces were so far out that no matter if he dropped everything and left what he was doing--he wouldn't have arrived in time for any important parts.

But if the Emperor actually fell, his forces would be able to launch and immediately prosecute a retributive campaign against Horus' forces.
If Horus fell, his forces would have been positioned to immediately launch and prosecute a punishing follow-up, harassing the traitors to wherever they fled.

Either of those would have been crushing and decisive victories for the fledgling Imperium, rather than simply more Astartes for the meat grinder of the Battle of Terra.

DA are definitely "tainted" but are not chaos followers, it is interesting that Gav Thorpe hinted that El'jonson was the traitor, and reading the Heresy books... I can see this being true

Alpha legion secretly follows the Emperor. Wouldn't be totally out there to think that there's a chapter that secretly follows Chaos (or at least a portion of it)

It's also not unheard of for a chapter to be loyalists but those in command are not. The Blood Raven's chapter master follows Chaos, but there are still loyalist marines that follow him (or did prior to the end of DoW2: Retribution)

As far as the DA being that chapter, it's more likely than any other chapter I can think of, however I still stand by the idea that they are infact loyalists.

I dont see DA as loyal to anything, this is why they need there chaplains more than most chapters, I believe in EVERY DA there is a seed of betrayel and doubt, it just takes time for the doubt to break through the psychoindoctrination(tm)

The Rank and file are loyal to the chapter/imperium because they are watched, the Deathwing are loyal to the Chapter because of the secret, The inner circle are loyal to themselves because they know the truth.

read the DA fluff again with these things in mind, the DA become alot more sinister

Formosa wrote:I dont see DA as loyal to anything, this is why they need there chaplains more than most chapters, I believe in EVERY DA there is a seed of betrayel and doubt, it just takes time for the doubt to break through the psychoindoctrination(tm)

The Rank and file are loyal to the chapter/imperium because they are watched, the Deathwing are loyal to the Chapter because of the secret, The inner circle are loyal to themselves because they know the truth.

read the DA fluff again with these things in mind, the DA become alot more sinister

TRAITOR! How dare you speak bad about the Holy Chapter of the Dark Aaaahahahaha. Nah I'm playing. Blood for the Blood God.


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Also Blood Angels are everything that you just said only cooler... and they have a real codex.

This? Again?

The Inner Circle of the Dark Angels does not follow Chaos. They exist in a grey area. Although they are loyal to the Emperor and the Imperium, keeping knowledge of The Fallen from others is critical to their survival and perhaps worse, it threatens their honor. So they have to act to guard that knowledge, serving their own ends at times rather than the greater good of mankind. However, if the truth were known, they and their successors would cease to exist In the immediate post-Heresy era, they would likely have been purged. Since then, the 10,000-year cover-up has arguably compounded the original crime in many ways. At their worst, Dark Angels are secretive and self-serving. However, they are also loyal Astartes and as such have made vital contributions to the defense of humanity. At this point the Inner Circle are the inheritors of the burden of terrible decisions made long ago, and they have little choice but to carry on.

The concepts that define the Dark Angels as a chapter are mysteries, secret societies/knightly orders, and divided loyalties. And doubt, as Formosa pointed out. I find them pretty interesting without Chaos-worship thrown in.

As far as Space Wolves and Dark Angels go- it dates back to the Great Crusade, where Russ and Johnson came to blows over the execution of a battle plan. It was an even match, but after Russ regained his temper and broke off, Johnson sucker-punched him and knocked him out. Both legions lost face that day, and ever since their heirs have traditionally had a duel of champions whenever they encounter each other.

sanguinary priest's are more medic than Chaplain, honestly I think more than any other chapter, the DA would fall without there chaplains

When the codex gets done again, the Chaplains are where the focus should be.

Formosa wrote:sanguinary priest's are more medic than Chaplain, honestly I think more than any other chapter, the DA would fall without there chaplains

When the codex gets done again, the Chaplains are where the focus should be.

Chaplains are more of a Black Templars thing, in my opinion. Deathwing/Ravenwing are still the things that set the Dark Angels apart, though Chaplains are currently the best HQ choice after Belial/Sammael. They'll probably play an expanded role if the 'dex get updated...

ah Exo, you raise some good points.

But I must disagree with others, The DA are not a unified force (spiritually and psychologically), they are infact 4 seperate bodies.

1. Rank and file (tac marines, Non DW vets etc.)
2. Ravenwing: Told to look for traitors, but not given much, if any, Imformation (also scouts)
3. Deathwing: Told "part" of the secret about the fallen.
4. The inner circle: They know the truth, the DA are tainted (not chaos)

The rank and file are loyal to the chapter first and formost, but will still follow orders to kill fellow loyal marines (Black Templars) abandon allies or even "disapear" inquisitors.

Ravenwing: Scouts, Think, How do the DA hear about rumours are get leads on the fallen, they MUST send out "scouts" to gather information from hundreds of sources, this then is checked by the librairius and serviitors.
The Ravenwing sergeants are the eyes and ears of the chapter

The Deathwing: These guys are loyal to there masters and the secret they share, they will do whatever it takes to get there mission complete, regardless of cost. But they still follow orders.

The inner circle: Ultimate pragmatists and 100% traitors to the Imperium, ordering the killing of allies, betraying and abandoning them when needed, but they know they MUST keep the truth of the Chapters secret away from the Imperium, but still they MUST protect the Imperium from within and without.
Truely a rock and a hard place

Formosa wrote:DA are definitely "tainted" but are not chaos followers, it is interesting that Gav Thorpe hinted that El'jonson was the traitor, and reading the Heresy books... I can see this being true

You're aware that the entire point of 'Angels of Darkness' is to show the fact that the Fallen feel that they were slighted and betrayed by El'Jonson, right?

The two Horus Heresy novels expounded upon this.
Luthor was retired from the campaigns by Jonson to take command of Caliban and ensure that production was kept going full throttle for the Imperial war effort.
Luthor felt that this was a deliberate slight upon his honor, as did those of the Dark Angels sent back with him.

This led to the whole idea that "Caliban was led astray by Jonson, we need to return to the way things were before he or the Imperium ever arrived".

Formosa wrote:ah Exo, you raise some good points.

But I must disagree with others, The DA are not a unified force (spiritually and psychologically), they are infact 4 seperate bodies.

1. Rank and file (tac marines, Non DW vets etc.)
2. Ravenwing: Told to look for traitors, but not given much, if any, Information (also scouts)
3. Deathwing: Told "part" of the secret about the fallen.
4. The inner circle: They know the truth, the DA are tainted (not chaos)

Yeah...no. You've got some of it right but most of it is wrong.

The Ravenwing, while not having the whole picture, are still told quite a bit about the Fallen.
They have to be told as much, simply so that they can know what to look for.

The Deathwing are told almost everything. The only thing that really is kept from them is that Luther is the one who led Caliban into sedition, and it was Luther who struck down El'Jonson.

"The Inner Circle" is such a broad term, and encompasses members from every step of the Unforgiven Chapters, from the lowliest Battle-Brother to a Chapter Master.
Advancement within the "Circle" isn't about veterancy, it's about trust.

And once again: The Dark Angels aren't really "tainted", in any real sense of the term. They're covering up a "secret shame".

The rank and file are loyal to the chapter first and foremost, but will still follow orders to kill fellow loyal marines (Black Templars) abandon allies or even "disappear" inquisitors.

This is wrong for so many reasons.
The rank and file are loyal to the Chapter first and foremost--but that's every Chapter out there.
Many Chapters have "disappeared" Inquisitors who have been uppity or stuck their nose into Chapter business.
Inter-Chapter rivalries are also not unheard of.

Ravenwing: Scouts, Think, How do the DA hear about rumours are get leads on the fallen, they MUST send out "scouts" to gather information from hundreds of sources, this then is checked by the librairius and servitors.
The Ravenwing sergeants are the eyes and ears of the chapter

Actually, every member of the Ravenwing is the 'eyes and ears of the Chapter'.

You're also neglecting the fact that the Dark Angels and their Successor Chapters have very, very close ties to each other and the Dark Angels have cultivated allies within planetary bodies just for the purpose of having watchers everywhere.

The Deathwing: These guys are loyal to their masters and the secret they share, they will do whatever it takes to get there mission complete, regardless of cost. But they still follow orders.

Actually, they're not "loyal to their masters".

This is something that has been so absurdly overblown down the years that I'm not surprised to still see it.
For Dark Angels(and the rest of the Unforgiven), the order is this:
Emperor->Primarch->Chapter->Chapter Master.

We've seen something not dissimilar to this in the recent Dawn of War games, where Captains have gone 'renegade' against the Chapter as a whole because something's corrupt and bringing a great doom upon the Chapter.

The inner circle: Ultimate pragmatists and 100% traitors to the Imperium, ordering the killing of allies, betraying and abandoning them when needed, but they know they MUST keep the truth of the Chapters secret away from the Imperium, but still they MUST protect the Imperium from within and without.

They very rarely have "ordered the killing of allies".
The few occasions I can think of have been so absurdly high tension that even the most by-the-book Chapter would have done the same thing.

The 'truth of the Chapter's secret' is also something that they've got no real cause to 'keep away from the Imperium'.
Luther didn't join with Horus. He just tried to secede.
The Dark Angels put their own house in order, and admittedly it didn't end well.

The only reason they've kept it secret is because it's a stain upon their honor.

Exopheric wrote:Chaplains are more of a Black Templars thing, in my opinion.

Definitely. It's annoying that people think that Dark Angels would "fall without their Chaplains".

They wouldn't. The Interrogator Chaplains rarely set foot onto the battlefield. Their entire role is to be collating information relating to the Fallen and trying to extract information from Luther.

If they really wanted to give the Dark Angels some more flavour, they could bring the "Brother-Redemptors" that we had described in the HH novels to the tabletop.

For all intents and purposes: they were brothers, picked out of the squads, and then granted a title and some various bits and bobbles because of their 'impressive faith and feat of arms'.
Mini-Chaplains in squads, anyone?

Formosa wrote:The inner circle: Ultimate pragmatists and 100% traitors to the Imperium, ordering the killing of allies, betraying and abandoning them when needed, but they know they MUST keep the truth of the Chapters secret away from the Imperium, but still they MUST protect the Imperium from within and without.
Truely a rock and a hard place

Sounds a lot like Alpha Legion.

Formosa wrote:
But I must disagree with others, The DA are not a unified force (spiritually and psychologically), they are infact 4 seperate bodies.

Actually, they're more unified than any other loyalist legion.

Azrael is Supreme Grand Master of all the sub-chapters founded from the Dark Angels' gene seed as well. 2 of those chapters are also headquartered on the Rock. They only split up in name, not in execution, to appease Guilliman.

Isnt El'Jonson still alive, sorta? Hes just trapped in some fortress , that for some reason the DA dont wanna go back too.

He; like all of the wounded primarchs, is currently in stasis waiting for when he is needed most(the Watchers in the Dark took him and have him hidden deep within the rock).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Formosa wrote:
But I must disagree with others, The DA are not a unified force (spiritually and psychologically), they are infact 4 seperate bodies.

Actually, they're more unified than any other loyalist legion.

Azrael is Supreme Grand Master of all the sub-chapters founded from the Dark Angels' gene seed as well. 2 of those chapters are also headquartered on the Rock. They only split up in name, not in execution, to appease Guilliman.

Unified through Azrael and the inner circle, See points 1 2 3 and 4 again.

2 Chapters on the rock.. no, they meet from time to time on The Rock, but only the DA are based there.
If any of you get the chance read "the defence of Kaldilus" its got some good insight into how the DA think

DaKKaLAnce wrote:Isnt El'Jonson still alive, sorta? Hes just trapped in some fortress , that for some reason the DA dont wanna go back too.

Only Luther knows that Lion is still on the Rock, and he's just not considered a reliable witness any longer.

It's worth noting however...

(First Heretic Spoiler)

Lies all of it

The loyality of the Lion isn't in doubt, if chaos is your witness....

See, there is this event when Fulgrim claimed to be able to bring Ferrus to the fold of the warmaster...didn't work.
Horus planned to win the war and also to annihilate all the loyalists at isstvan ( once his own, second the 3 trapped legios ),
didn't go as planned. So the plans of chaos for the future are as inevitable as any plan before battle....

1) caliban is/was a tainted world.
2) had tainted creatures, but was cleansed
3) the watchers warned the Lion, and surely were there to keep chaos contained
4) 9 out of 10 isn't bad, maybe remember it was 20 brothers and both lost ones seem not to be part of the "recruts"....
5) last thing we know of yet is, the Lion doesn't know where the loyality of Perturabo is...

Agreed , chaos wanted half of the Primarchs. Let them want. The decision is still with the person, since the future isn't written but a collection
of possible futures.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Formosa wrote:
But I must disagree with others, The DA are not a unified force (spiritually and psychologically), they are infact 4 seperate bodies.

Actually, they're more unified than any other loyalist legion.

Azrael is Supreme Grand Master of all the sub-chapters founded from the Dark Angels' gene seed as well. 2 of those chapters are also headquartered on the Rock. They only split up in name, not in execution, to appease Guilliman.

What? There are 2 other chapters on the rock? Who?

they arn't based there, but rather all DA successors hold yearly meetings between the Deathwing and Inner circle on the Rock.