Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just Dave wrote:It's worth noting however...

(First Heretic Spoiler)

Spoiler:

There was a scene where it described each of the traitor Primarchs arrival upon their relevant homeworlds within their pods. However, it also described Jonson's arrival upon Caliban. No other primarchs were shown here. Just the traitors and/including Jonson. Interpret this how you like, but at the least it suggests Jonson was the actual traitor as several theories suggest.

It doesn't mean that the current DA's follow Chaos; that's HIGHLY unlikely. However, it does add a spanner in the works, particularly in regards to Jonson's allegiance.

I think this is (ambiguously) addressed in Descent of Angels. It's early in the book, and really makes little sense without re-reading it after Fallen Angels and/or Angels of Darkness

Zahariael is troubled by dreams of a vigil he passed as an aspirant to the Order. He dreams of a striking young boy being taunted-- he's told that he's impressed the Masters of the Order and been chosen, and doesn't need to continue the vigil; but when he moves to go inside he's laughed at and cast out into the forest:

'You think because someone tells you that you are special that it must be true? You are
nothing but a pawn for our amusement!'

It's pretty clear from the boy's description that he represents El'Jonson. The Chaos Powers only toyed with the idea of choosing him... but it's worth noting that he wouldn't have refused the offer if it had been genuine. Thus, El'Jonson remains an ambivalent figure- a brilliant strategist, an awe-inspiring and beloved figure to many his men, yet unable to fathom human feelings, motivations and frailties. While he possessed a vision for humanity and his legion, he never doubted that he should be at the head of that future. His reaction to human fallibility was to develop bulwarks of secrecy, rather than learn to form bonds of true camaraderie and friendship. That was why he needed Luther, yet it seems he never understood JUST how much he needed him. In the end, he alienated those he needed most and undermined the social stability of his homeworld; though he had vision, he ruled people without understanding them. Competence is only the first step towards good leadership.

I would hazard that this was why El'Jonson was rejected by the ruinous powers-- Luther was the true heart of the 1st Legion, and so they sought him out instead.

Hell no the Lion is not turned to chaos.

Exopheric wrote:I think this is (ambiguously) addressed in Descent of Angels. It's early in the book, and really makes little sense without re-reading it after Fallen Angels and/or Angels of Darkness

Zahariael is troubled by dreams of a vigil he passed as an aspirant to the Order. He dreams of a striking young boy being taunted-- he's told that he's impressed the Masters of the Order and been chosen, and doesn't need to continue the vigil; but when he moves to go inside he's laughed at and cast out into the forest:

'You think because someone tells you that you are special that it must be true? You are
nothing but a pawn for our amusement!'

It's pretty clear from the boy's description that he represents El'Jonson. The Chaos Powers only toyed with the idea of choosing him... but it's worth noting that he wouldn't have refused the offer if it had been genuine. Thus, El'Jonson remains an ambivalent figure- a brilliant strategist, an awe-inspiring and beloved figure to many his men, yet unable to fathom human feelings, motivations and frailties. While he possessed a vision for humanity and his legion, he never doubted that he should be at the head of that future. His reaction to human fallibility was to develop bulwarks of secrecy, rather than learn to form bonds of true camaraderie and friendship. That was why he needed Luther, yet it seems he never understood JUST how much he needed him. In the end, he alienated those he needed most and undermined the social stability of his homeworld; though he had vision, he ruled people without understanding them. Competence is only the first step towards good leadership.

I would hazard that this was why El'Jonson was rejected by the ruinous powers-- Luther was the true heart of the 1st Legion, and so they sought him out instead.

That's a great theory and really well thought out. I'm not too sure about the Chaos gods selecting Luther as he was the heart of the Legion or rather to simply divide the legion, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they did tease - and reject - Jonson. I agree with your assessment of Jonson too, we was a brilliant tactician, but a rubbish human.
Like you said, I think if Chaos did offer him the opportunity, he probably would have seized it. He was ambitious to say the least.
However, I'm not sure whether they did offer it to him, whether or not he is under the influence of Chaos or whatever and I think GW/BL know this and are making the most of it. They really are teasing the player it seems and I can't imagine anything solid coming out in the fluff and instead it just being left as pure speculation.
Rightly so IMHO, but still, Jonsons questionable allegiances, whether or not he was spurned by Chaos, are worth remembering in such a debate...

Asherian Command wrote:Hell no the Lion is not turned to chaos.

Honestly, all the Astartes are 'rubbish humans'

Johnson was paranoid to the point he lost half of his sons. He's hardly a saint.

Oh man, you guys just wait until yer precious Dark Angels are Warded. I can see it now, Dark Angels on Tenebrous Bikes wielding Blades of Darkness and wearing Boots of Eternal Darkening on an eternal quest to hunt down the fallen, aided by their eternally stalwart pet genestealers and eating the hearts of puritan inquisitors to gain their knowledge while raping sisters of battle on top of piles of copies of the codex astartes all the while screaming "By Gulliman's righteous pecs why aren't we Ultramarines!?!?"

Bromsy wrote:Oh man, you guys just wait until yer precious Dark Angels are Warded.

Actually, they probably can't wait.

Unfortunately, Jervis and Gav called dibs on Dark Angels at the dawn of time and can pull rank. Jervis errs way onto the side of underpowered and Gav only writes fluff that humiliates and retcons the Dark Angels.

Ward would be a massive step up.

at least they would probably get Plasma out the wazoo

Do space marines have wazoos?

That isn't what a Wazoo is,

and yes to both items

Bromsy wrote:Oh man, you guys just wait until yer precious Dark Angels are Warded. I can see it now, Dark Angels on Tenebrous Bikes wielding Blades of Darkness and wearing Boots of Eternal Darkening on an eternal quest to hunt down the fallen, aided by their eternally stalwart pet genestealers and eating the hearts of puritan inquisitors to gain their knowledge while raping sisters of battle on top of piles of copies of the codex astartes all the while screaming "By Gulliman's righteous pecs why aren't we Ultramarines!?!?"

quoted, for great justice! ( i laughed me arse off)

Just Dave wrote:

Exopheric wrote:I think this is (ambiguously) addressed in Descent of Angels. It's early in the book, and really makes little sense without re-reading it after Fallen Angels and/or Angels of Darkness

Zahariael is troubled by dreams of a vigil he passed as an aspirant to the Order. He dreams of a striking young boy being taunted-- he's told that he's impressed the Masters of the Order and been chosen, and doesn't need to continue the vigil; but when he moves to go inside he's laughed at and cast out into the forest:

'You think because someone tells you that you are special that it must be true? You are
nothing but a pawn for our amusement!'

It's pretty clear from the boy's description that he represents El'Jonson. The Chaos Powers only toyed with the idea of choosing him... but it's worth noting that he wouldn't have refused the offer if it had been genuine. Thus, El'Jonson remains an ambivalent figure- a brilliant strategist, an awe-inspiring and beloved figure to many his men, yet unable to fathom human feelings, motivations and frailties. While he possessed a vision for humanity and his legion, he never doubted that he should be at the head of that future. His reaction to human fallibility was to develop bulwarks of secrecy, rather than learn to form bonds of true camaraderie and friendship. That was why he needed Luther, yet it seems he never understood JUST how much he needed him. In the end, he alienated those he needed most and undermined the social stability of his homeworld; though he had vision, he ruled people without understanding them. Competence is only the first step towards good leadership.

I would hazard that this was why El'Jonson was rejected by the ruinous powers-- Luther was the true heart of the 1st Legion, and so they sought him out instead.

That's a great theory and really well thought out. I'm not too sure about the Chaos gods selecting Luther as he was the heart of the Legion or rather to simply divide the legion, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they did tease - and reject - Jonson. I agree with your assessment of Jonson too, we was a brilliant tactician, but a rubbish human.
Like you said, I think if Chaos did offer him the opportunity, he probably would have seized it. He was ambitious to say the least.
However, I'm not sure whether they did offer it to him, whether or not he is under the influence of Chaos or whatever and I think GW/BL know this and are making the most of it. They really are teasing the player it seems and I can't imagine anything solid coming out in the fluff and instead it just being left as pure speculation.
Rightly so IMHO, but still, Jonsons questionable allegiances, whether or not he was spurned by Chaos, are worth remembering in such a debate...

Asherian Command wrote:Hell no the Lion is not turned to chaos.

I agree, it's a great theory. I'd change the part about 'selecting' Luther as their champion, they just used him like they use all their pawns. They needed the Legions to perpetrate the downfall of The Emperor. Most of the others were obviously too uncorruptable but The Lion had ambition and arrogance, he thought that he should lead Humanity in his vision, under the Emperor whilst loyal, but as Just Dave said, if offered the power he would have taken it. Luther was the true soul of the legion, he matched The Lions achievements despite being just human. The Chaos Gods knew that and preyed on Luther. The interpretation of the visions Zahariael has is really interesting and definitely not the way I saw it.

The Dark Angels are not on the side of Chaos. They keep secrets, yes, so do many Chapters, the Inner Circle is trying to cover up their past, and that often takes precedence over their loyalty to the IoM. They'll say its for the moral of the Imperium, but really they just want to cover up a stain on their honor.

So what happen's in Gav Thorpe's Angel's of Darkness exactly? A fallen claims it was actually The Lion who betrayed The Emperor but we are to assume its just sour grapes on his part?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So what happen's in Gav Thorpe's Angel's of Darkness exactly? A fallen claims it was actually The Lion who betrayed The Emperor but we are to assume its just sour grapes on his part?

The fallen angel claimed Jonson was waiting to see who won and was going to ally with the winner. He's an unreliable narrator though.

DarknessEternal wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:So what happen's in Gav Thorpe's Angel's of Darkness exactly? A fallen claims it was actually The Lion who betrayed The Emperor but we are to assume its just sour grapes on his part?

The fallen angel claimed Jonson was waiting to see who won and was going to ally with the winner. He's an unreliable narrator though.

You mean you're told he is unreliable by the people who have a vested interest in keeping the 'truth' supressed.
The Fallen could simply have been those that disagreed with whatever The Lion's choice was no matter what the choice actually was.

purplefood wrote:
You mean you're told he is unreliable by the people who have a vested interest in keeping the 'truth' supressed.

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell on the internet.

He was clearly under duress from torture, had several thousand years to rebuild his memories, and wanted specifically to screw with his captors.

The author of the book also came out and said he's unreliable.

DarknessEternal wrote:

purplefood wrote:
You mean you're told he is unreliable by the people who have a vested interest in keeping the 'truth' supressed.

Are you being sarcastic? I can't tell on the internet.

He was clearly under duress from torture, had several thousand years to rebuild his memories, and wanted specifically to screw with his captors.

The author of the book also came out and said he's unreliable.

Yeah i am being sarcastic.
I am annoyed with the general DA £Everything must be secret!" attitude to everything.

hi i need to know who the hell is on the cover of storm of iron is it honsou or kroeger? or niether its bugging the gak out of me and i cant find the answer

Why does it matter?! Nonetheless, if it's anyone I'd say it's Ferrix(sp?)...

The reason the chaos may of chosen to target Luthor as he was the heart of the Caliban born DAs. It was them who really didn't like the Terran DAs so much that the Lion had 99% deployed to Caliban to oversee the training of neew recruits. The DAs did have their own little civiil war but it is unclear who fired first, and whoever did this doesn't instantly mean they can be labelled as the 'evil' ones. Besides wasn't there a Daemon in the heart of Caliban?
The DAs who lived through it probaly swore to themselves not to do the same thing again and as a result they now live with that shame but are of the most fiercly loyal to the emprah.
But they do kill allies. That poor BA ship, just for cypher to escape again.